The BDS movement and the association of anti-Zionism and antisemitism

[Ironside]

That's a barrage of questions. Got one back, who is surrounded by genocidal maniacs who have sworn to destroy their state and get shot at at daily bases.

The Palestinians? Or was it a multiple answer question?

They are shot at more than the Israeli, but the surronding genocidal maniacs got less political power.

Anyway, that goes into justification. And I'm saying that a large chunk of the left aren't buying that justification.

Can you name an identical situation'

Absolutily, the western sahara of Marocco, supposedly the most modern state in Northern Africa. Also the Kurds come to mind.

Both are dealing with suppression of a possible new state, rather than annexation (I remembered the right word now). It's less obvious.

I can answer all questions I think, but keep it to a smaller dosis for me please.

Most are Yes or No questions. It's more to provide a context. The two last ones are more complex, but a major part of the answer is that both nations started to look bullyish and imperialistic due to how they acting in war.

Simply because Israel proves that leftist 'intellectuals' are wrong. The society they think they can build is an illusion and the succes Israel has is a slap in the face bringing that home. Leftist intellectuals are used to never have been argued against, so it's simply resentment against the fact that is being completily wrong about some things.

Eh, the society the left wants to build is supposed to be more equal somehow. That's as far as they agree.

And I'm not sure what you mean by the success by Israel. Being successful, while brutal towards your neightbours aren't exactly uncommon in history.

Leftist intellectuals are quite used being argued against. What you might be able to argue is that they're unused to not be on the side of "the good guys", but it's not uncommon that they ignore the bad sides on the part they're cheering on. Or accept it as a part of the struggle. It's a gray vs gray conflict in any way.

Anyway, how it this supposed to make them anti-semitic instead of anti-Israel?

[Fragony]

Leftist intellectuals are quite used being argued against. What you might be able to argue is that they're unused to not be on the side of "the good guys", but it's not uncommon that they ignore the bad sides on the part they're cheering on. Or accept it as a part of the struggle. It's a gray vs gray conflict in any way.

Anyway, how it this supposed to make them anti-semitic instead of anti-Israel?

Because they only care about Israel. In other parts of the world violence and cruelty is taken for granted, uch much worse cruelty and violence I might add. It's no excuse that Israel is held at a higher standard, it's an inconsistancy in the school of thought of equality. Call it a gray area if you want, it won't get you any drinks in the leftist stratosphere and you probably know that if you ever been to a meeting of furious lefties, you won't convince me that a side has already been picked if you not aren't to come with anything better than this. The left is still deeply antisematic, not because of screaming sieg heil like in the old days, but by totally ignoring everything they don't fancy all that much. In short, the left is creepy and dangerous, what they see in others they don't recognise when looking into a mirror.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Because they only care about Israel. In other parts of the world violence and cruelty is taken for granted, uch much worse cruelty and violence I might add. It's no excuse that Israel is held at a higher standard, it's an inconsistancy in the school of thought of equality. Call it a gray area if you want, it won't get you any drinks in the leftist stratosphere and you probably know that if you ever been to a meeting of furious lefties, you won't convince me that a side has already been picked if you not aren't to come with anything better than this. The left is still deeply antisematic, not because of screaming sieg heil like in the old days, but by totally ignoring everything they don't fancy all that much. In short, the left is creepy and dangerous, what they see in others they don't recognise when looking into a mirror.

I think you're half right - Israel is singled out due to hypocrisy - but not because they're Jewish.

The fact is - the Left can cope with African Despots slaughtering people, but it can't cope with what is apparently a "Western Democracy" doing the same. So Israel falls foul of the same exceptionalism as South Africa before it.

Underlying that is probably the realisation that if Israelis can pump sewage into the Palestinian water supply - then, then Americans could do that to Canadians, or at least Mexicans.

It makes it much harder to look back at the "Colonial era" as the Bad Old Days when we didn't "know better". The Israelis definitely know better, but they do it anyway. The logical extension being that the Victorians probably knew better too...

[Tellos Athenaios]

I think you're half right - Israel is singled out due to hypocrisy - but not because they're Jewish.

The fact is - the Left can cope with African Despots slaughtering people, but it can't cope with what is apparently a "Western Democracy" doing the same. So Israel falls foul of the same exceptionalism as South Africa before it.

Underlying that is probably the realisation that if Israelis can pump sewage into the Palestinian water supply - then, then Americans could do that to Canadians, or at least Mexicans.

Or: that you don't want your allies to be pulling that kind of stunt 'just cause. Which is the problem with Israel, the incredible 'just cause attitude towards pretty much everyone else. That kinda moves them from a likeable ally with an unfortunate tendency to elect deliberate idiots trying to pass off their ignorance as a virtue into straight up immoral and oddly reminiscent of certain past regimes.

[Fragony]

I think you're half right - Israel is singled out due to hypocrisy - but not because they're Jewish.

The left sympathises with people who hate Israel because they are jewish. What was the first thing that was done when Israel moved out of Gaza? The synagogues were burned down. Israel's enemies are openly antisemit and aren't very secretive about what they have in mind, and leftist cheer-monkeys wear their symbols. Wearing an arafat-shawl is no different than wearing a swastika, it stands for the same thing. The left not deeply antisemit, I don't think so.

If you question Israel's behaviour (shooting back) 'The villainy you teach me I will execute, and I shall go hard, but I will better the instruction'

I am sure that quote is on a wall somewhere.

[Ironside]

If you question Israel's behaviour (shooting back) 'The villainy you teach me I will execute, and I shall go hard, but I will better the instruction'

I am sure that quote is on a wall somewhere.

They already knew that lesson in 1947.

By now they're complaining about a nasty bruise that the house owner gave them, while the home owner is very beatened up. And they won't leave, because one room is absolutly faboulous.

40 years ago it might have been militarly important, but nowadays there's no major military threat towards Israel. Instead we should celebrate the bully because he shows restraint.
It's now Israel can afford to create a modicum of good will and improve the situation. Even if Hamas would use the opportunity to increase their arms, they would still end up with way to little arms to threaten Israel and would start to become very obvious that they don't care for the average Palestinian. It's unknown if Israel got the same opportunity 40 years from now, or alternativly one of those "kill them all" Israeli politicians gets a bit too much power.

The Palestinian hatred is a mixture of anti-semitism and ourage of being occupied. The Iranian is a mix of anti-semitism, realpolitik (they're exerting influence through the conflict) and a kind of excuse "don't look at the problems at home, look at the evil Israelis/Jews and how we temporary care for our Palestinian brothers in plight".

[Fragony]

That muslims hate jews needs little extra explanation. That neo-nazi's hate jews also needs no explanation. Antisemitism on the left does though, and don't tell me it doesn't exist. It's heartwarming really, a notoriously antisemit French comdedian brings all groups together, in the adience there are muslims, skinheads, and Arafat-shawl wearing 'anti-facists'(lol), cozy and in perfect harmony, nice to share a hobby, really binding.

[Rhyfelwyr]

That muslims hate jews needs little extra explanation. That neo-nazi's hate jews also needs no explanation. Antisemitism on the left does though, and don't tell me it doesn't exist. It's heartwarming really, a notoriously antisemit French comdedian brings all groups together, in the adience there are muslims, skinheads, and Arafat-shawl wearing 'anti-facists'(lol), cozy and in perfect harmony, nice to share a hobby, really binding.

You get clowns on the left just like you do on the right. I don't think anti-semetism is a feature of the mainstream left.

[Ironside]

That muslims hate jews needs little extra explanation. That neo-nazi's hate jews also needs no explanation. Antisemitism on the left does though, and don't tell me it doesn't exist. It's heartwarming really, a notoriously antisemit French comdedian brings all groups together, in the adience there are muslims, skinheads, and Arafat-shawl wearing 'anti-facists'(lol), cozy and in perfect harmony, nice to share a hobby, really binding.

That it exists in fringes that doesn't get the criticism it should because they're for "the cause", wouldn't suprise me one bit. But to go back to the original topic:

It doesn't exist even close to the amount where someone can state that the BDS movement would either exist or be anywhere close as strong if the Palestina conflict was resolved and be taken seriously.

I would even go a step further, even if anti-semitism would be a major reason for why the conflict is in so high focus, it doesn't change the nature of the majority of the protesting. To take West-Sahara for example. It's mostly ignored, but the left is criticising Marocco for it. They're very far from giving Marocco a stamp of approval.

So a situation where Israel would be filled with Christians would still have Israel heavily criticised.

Basically, it's the defense of a celeberty who ends up in bar fights (since who started it can be a bit dubious for that one sometimes) alot and ends up in the spot light. He immidiatly attack the media for spot lighting him because he's famous and they don't focus on the random barfighting smuck on the street. And (intentionally?) misses the point that the barfighting of the random smuck isn't in any way approved.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

40 years ago it might have been militarly important, but nowadays there's no major military threat towards Israel.

No credible threat on a formal military level. As in, no force combination exists that could truly wipe Israel from the map.

However, the security threat is still real and Israel faces all of the usual difficulties in confronting an opponent who has resorted to a strictly asymmetric warfare mode. From mid 2003 to the end of 2009, the USA had hundreds of fatalities each year in the Iraqi occupation, long after we had won the conventional conflict. Israel is engaged in suppressing an insurgency movement -- a far more vexing task.

[Husar]

The left hates jews because jews horde all the money in their banks, it's an inherent feature of left political philosophy to hate the rich. It's not the fault of the left that all the jews are rich and most of the rich are jews. If they jews want to avoid this, they can gift their banks to their governments.*

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

*Not all of this is totally serial, serially!
Everytime I say "the" it's serious though.

[Hooahguy]

If you question Israel's behaviour (shooting back) 'The villainy you teach me I will execute, and I shall go hard, but I will better the instruction'

The problem isnt Israel fighting back. I dont think anyone sane questions Israel's right to fight back. The problem is that shelling and launching airstrikes in one of the most population dense areas in the world is a daft idea. If you think that Cast Lead and Pillar of Defense were sound COIN strategies then I consider you daft. If anything, those two major offensives in Gaza caused more tension between the Palestinians and Israels than eased it. At this point the Palestinians are all too familiar with the iron fist, and extending a peace branch would do far more in terms of COIN than an air strike ever would.

[Fragony]

The problem isnt Israel fighting back. I dont think anyone sane questions Israel's right to fight back. The problem is that shelling and launching airstrikes in one of the most population dense areas in the world is a daft idea. If you think that Cast Lead and Pillar of Defense were sound COIN strategies then I consider you daft. If anything, those two major offensives in Gaza caused more tension between the Palestinians and Israels than eased it. At this point the Palestinians are all too familiar with the iron fist, and extending a peace branch would do far more in terms of COIN than an air strike ever would.

Feel free to call me daft. Did leaving the west-bank ever alleviate any tensions? The reason that shells and air-strikes hit the most densily populated area's is because these are purposily used as a human shield. That is a bad deal for the people who live there of course and I do feel sorry for them, but I am not looking at Israel when I consider the misery that is bestowed on them, getting killed is their purpose in a very cynical propaganda warfare. You have changed since your visit, but you attended one of these religious schools that are pretty damn extremist and I can hardly blame you for, imho, losing sight of the bigger picture, as they are frankly scum. But it isn't just them that are hated, all jews are hated. You did the right thing to gtfo of that place because they are just as bad by the way, congratulations for being sane.

[Hooahguy]

Israel is still in the West Bank, you are thinking of Gaza. If the US's experience in Iraq and Afghanistan is any indication, iron fists do not work in the long term. Humanitarian aid does. Hearts and minds. At the very least, settlement expansion isnt helping either.