[Request for Permission] For use of siege equipment for RTRVII submod

[the man, the myth, the legend]

Apologies if this is not the correct way to inquire about pemission requests. I am making a small submod for RTRVII in which I hope to be able to include the siege equipment, more specifically the Triakontamnaioi Lithoboloi (Thirty-mina Stone Projectors) and the Talantiaioi Lithoboloi (1 talent Stone Projectors) from EB, as well as the unit cards and unit descriptions. I always found it frustrating that the RTRVII devs didn't include these most important weapons for the Greeks and Romans. Thanks for your time.

[the man, the myth, the legend]

I guess I can't edit my posts, yet. I just wanted to add that I regularly am on the TWC forums (same name) but someone there recommended that I ask here because they say that EB members are more active at the .Org. Thanks again.

[BroskiDerpman]

PM any of the members or post in the EB2 section.

[Brennus]

Your request has been noted. We will discuss it and one of the team will be in touch with you shortly. And thank you for asking permission.

[fallen851]

I guess I can't edit my posts, yet. I just wanted to add that I regularly am on the TWC forums (same name) but someone there recommended that I ask here because they say that EB members are more active at the .Org. Thanks again.

Just remember friend, it is easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission.

When I made a mod for WC3, I used everything I wanted without asking, but prominently displayed the authors name and thank them in the loading screen credits. Never had a problem.

[Moros]

Just remember friend, it is easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission.

When I made a mod for WC3, I used everything I wanted without asking, but prominently displayed the authors name and thank them in the loading screen credits. Never had a problem.

In the TW modding scene requesting permissions are considered common courtesy, rarely is permission not granted when a specific request is made as well.
Hence I wouldn't be following this advice.

[Ca Putt]

True, another modding community(aoe3) I'm a member of, also holds the permission asking in high regard. Noncompliance is usually penlized with the supreme punishments Internet community law allows.
Deliquents have a hard time, as they are often banned from comunity led forums and tend not to get permission even if they ask, also nobody likes them.

So I would certainly ask for permission unless I'm sure that nobody cares.

[the man, the myth, the legend]

Its just common courtesy, they obviously put a loooot of time and effort into making something that is a labor of love and the fact that they should have the right to allow someone or not to use what they've created, goes without saying. It's a moral issue, besides being against the rules. Also why some risk getting your mod remove and/or banned because your too lazy too post a thread or send a PM, is beyond my comprehension. Sure you might be able to get away with just using someones stuff without asking, just credit them, it could work, but I know what it takes to mod and I ask out of respect, if nothing else.

[fallen851]

I suppose much of it depends on how your mod is released. For this scene, you need some way to distribute your mod, and thus if you make the people angry who can distribute your mod, it won't go far. However, for WC3 (and probably SC2), once you upload it to the server, frankly, no one cares if you stole everything in your mod, if the mod is good, it gets played.

Compared to you guys, I am on the other end of spectrum. If you want to use anything of mine, great, just give me credit and obviously don't try to charge people for it. No permission required. All that being said, my mod was "locked" in the WC3 scene because if an author didn't lock their mod, there would be 14,338 clones of the mod within an hour where people change one tiny thing and then slap their name on it and don't give me any credit. However, everything I've shared I've allowed people to use without permission, I just ask for credit.

To require permission to use something suggests hubris of the author in my opinion, because it suggests that such a request could be denied, as if the personal image of some author was more important the community. Denying people the right to use something made for a video game, regardless of how long it took you to make, is childish and only serves to hurt the scene and waste of the time of mod makers (especially those who seek to use something from an author that is no longer active in the scene). If we want to advance the modding scene and create the best (ie most fun) mods possible, the scene should be open and people should not be denied permission. In fact, they shouldn't even have to waste time seeking it, they should only have to give credit where credit is due.

And if permission itself is rarely denied as Moros describes, then what is it but a useless time wasting endeavor that serves only to esteem the author? People need to get over themselves, but I understand that won't change overnight.

[Rovert]

I rarely read a post on here that catches my attention , well done fallen851.

[the man, the myth, the legend]

Thats great and all, fallen851, I get it. If I had made things from scratch, I think I would let other use my stuff, no credit/no permission needed. I would however appreciate it if some still asked for permission regardless, it just shows a sign of respect. Sure a lot of awesome mods don't get to see the light of day, because people downright denying use resources for whatever reason and that does suck. In a perfect utopian modding community, in my eyes, it would be a free for all, everyone could use anyones stuff no permissions needed, whatever, eveything that is made is made for the community. Someone else however, might have a different view of what a modding utopia would be maybe theirs would be that everyone get recognized for their hard work as the think they should or that the would get jobs in the end for all the effort they've put into modding. But here in reality we have rules, we have different personalities, and opinions that makes the subject of permissions different for everyone. The rules of permission vary greatly from website to website, and forum to forum. Its your choice to be diplomatic about these things or to just do whatever you want and hope for the best.

[vartan]

Seems like a legitimate grey area. One might simply go ahead and use the material, and begin implementing it into his own creation. At the same time he can start a thread, asking permission (as the OP did here). Yet if permission was not granted (unlikely in this case, I presume, but let's pretend we're talking about a more strict scene/community), then it would appear that the time leading up to the denial, during which time the asker would have been putting in hours to implement said material, would have been wasted time indeed.

A quick survey of similar requests for permission in this community (I imagine) would lead you to believe precisely what Moros noted. Hence, at least in the TW modding community, I imagine no harm no foul. Go ahead and begin your work, ask, and ye shall receive, eh? Good luck.

[Kull]

Compared to you guys, I am on the other end of spectrum. If you want to use anything of mine, great, just give me credit and obviously don't try to charge people for it. No permission required. All that being said, my mod was "locked" in the WC3 scene because if an author didn't lock their mod, there would be 14,338 clones of the mod within an hour where people change one tiny thing and then slap their name on it and don't give me any credit. However, everything I've shared I've allowed people to use without permission, I just ask for credit.

Bolded to highlight the difference between a mod created by one person and one created by a team of people. If 35 of 40 people in EB feel exactly as you do, should we tell the other five, "too bad - we don't care what you think"? Or try to establish rules in which the content created by some people is "free to all" whereas content created by others is subject to rules? Insanity. So instead we look at each request and give interested team members the opportunity to weigh in for or against. And the usual result is we allow it.

That has nothing to do with "hubris" and everything to do with the respect we grant to the artists, historians, and modders who give - FOR FREE - their talents to this project so that others might have fun and learn something in the process.

[The Stranger]

True, another modding community(aoe3) I'm a member of, also holds the permission asking in high regard. Noncompliance is usually penlized with the supreme punishments Internet community law allows.
Deliquents have a hard time, as they are often banned from comunity led forums and tend not to get permission even if they ask, also nobody likes them.

So I would certainly ask for permission unless I'm sure that nobody cares.

@Ca Putt what is your aoe3 nickname?

[fallen851]

Bolded to highlight the difference between a mod created by one person and one created by a team of people. If 35 of 40 people in EB feel exactly as you do, should we tell the other five, "too bad - we don't care what you think"? Or try to establish rules in which the content created by some people is "free to all" whereas content created by others is subject to rules? Insanity. So instead we look at each request and give interested team members the opportunity to weigh in for or against. And the usual result is we allow it.

That has nothing to do with "hubris" and everything to do with the respect we grant to the artists, historians, and modders who give - FOR FREE - their talents to this project so that others might have fun and learn something in the process.

Nothing that you said has changes the fact this is all about hubris.

And has everything to do with hubris. You call it "respect", I call it hubris. Let's take a look at why denying people the right to use resources isn't about respect, it is about hubris.

Listen man, we've all worked hard (I spent two years, alone working on Coming of the Horde, my WC3 mod, and then spent years after supporting it), and we all want to be respected and given credit for our achievements and the things we've work so hard - FOR FREE - to accomplish. But that respect and credit doesn't come from denying the right of others to use the great stuff you've created. It doesn't. And it doesn't matter if your on a team or alone. It doesn't. The respect comes from within. I'm incredibly proud of what I accomplished. I don't need anyone to tell me what I did was great. I know I made one of the best WC3 mods, and had it not hit the scene so late, it would have been bigger. Nothing anyone says or does can change that.

And frankly, the idea that you could deny someone the right to use something, stinks of hubris. It isn't a form of respect, it isn't form of credit. It's just someone being a spoiled brat and judging someone else's mod with an elitist tint saying "well you certainly cannot use my fine work... (insert elitist reason here)". It is disrespectful, hurts other modders, and hurts the people who enjoy the mods. And that's the end of the story. The only thing protected by denying people the right to use a resource, is someones pride.

Now I believe we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. And that is fine. Modders are proud people, but like I said, they need to get over themselves.

[V.T. Marvin]

Permission was granted as it was requested. This thread has fulfilled its reason.

And my thanks to "the man, the myth, the legend" for his kindness and sincere wish for success of his submod.

[Kull]

Nothing that you said has changes the fact this is all about hubris.

No finer example can be found then the attitudes expressed in your post:

hu·bris
/ˈ(h)yo͞obris/
noun
noun: hubris
1.
excessive pride or self-confidence. synonyms: arrogance, conceit, haughtiness, hauteur, pride, self-importance, egotism, pomposity, superciliousness, superiority.