Page 1 of 121 123451151101 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 3617

Thread: Ukraine-in-a-thread

  1. #1
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3,921

    Default Ukraine-in-a-thread



    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    Like totalwar.org on Facebook!

    Member thankful for this post:



  2. #2
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I guess Illuminati is to blame for this as well, eh?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  3. #3

    Default Re: Ukraine

    People in the first video came from middle age?

  4. #4
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,299

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by PilaPis View Post
    People in the first video came from middle age?
    Ego usus catapultum, tribuo mihi totus vestri viaticus!
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

    Member thankful for this post:

    Husar 


  5. #5
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Actually wanting to be in the ultra-undemocratic EU. That's rich. The EU is about eliminating the democratic nation-state and centralising power. Modern-day fascism really, socialism for the peasants, grants for the multinationals.

    Member thankful for this post:



  6. #6
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Actually wanting to be in the ultra-undemocratic EU. That's rich. The EU is about eliminating the democratic nation-state and centralising power. Modern-day fascism really, socialism for the peasants, grants for the multinationals.
    The Netherlands is about eliminating the democratic nation-state and centralising power. Modern-day fascism really, should be happy the EU are trying to save the Limburgers from the fascism of the Zeelanders and the Gelderlanders.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

    Member thankful for this post:

    Hax 


  7. #7
    Member Member GenosseGeneral's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    The heart of evil, to some known as Moscow
    Posts
    237

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Actually wanting to be in the ultra-undemocratic EU. That's rich. The EU is about eliminating the democratic nation-state and centralising power. Modern-day fascism really, socialism for the peasants, grants for the multinationals.
    Those protests where about signing the AA until about nov. 30 th, last year. This was when the government tried to disperse by blunt force (in the sense of boots and batons beating against students' heads).
    Since then, it is about overthrowing Yanukovich and his gang of corrupt oligarchs. Corruption in Ukraine is outrageous on all levels.
    I have been living there for one year, and I know why the Ukrainian people wants to live 'a European life'. It is not even about the tangible accomodities, it is about replacing the ever-present abuse of power and corruption by state officials with rule of law, something we Germans or Dutch probably take for granted.

  8. #8
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,306

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Ukraine is a deeply divided nation in every sense of the word. One part wants stronger ties with Russia, the other stronger ties with EU/West.

    It's gonna end badly either way, especially as the politicians on both sides are professional cleptocrats when it comes to domestic policies.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Well, all of Ukraine seems to agree that Ukrainians should have limited sovereignty over Ukraine.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Members thankful for this post (4):



  10. #10
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    The Netherlands is about eliminating the democratic nation-state and centralising power. Modern-day fascism really, should be happy the EU are trying to save the Limburgers from the fascism of the Zeelanders and the Gelderlanders.
    Ridicule is normal, so it's boring. I could make a list of what has been sneaked in, but it would depress me too much. Look up some video's of Nigel Farrage he is good at explaining things.

  11. #11
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Ukraine is a deeply divided nation in every sense of the word. One part wants stronger ties with Russia, the other stronger ties with EU/West.

    It's gonna end badly either way, especially as the politicians on both sides are professional cleptocrats when it comes to domestic policies.
    I'd say it's more about the division within Ukraine itself, than it is about the east/west divide of Europe. This especially apparent if you examine the organizations present on both sides of the conflict. You will find groups with an ideology you would normally consider very anti-eu(various forms of nationalism) on the "pro-EU"-side.

    And of course, there's probably a considerable middle ground of people who are just sick and tired of corruption and just want to have a new corrupt leader to whine about.

    And Nigel Farrage is full of rethoric without any substance. All emotion, no rationality. No wonder frag loves him.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  12. #12
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Ridicule is normal, so it's boring. I could make a list of what has been sneaked in, but it would depress me too much. Look up some video's of Nigel Farrage he is good at explaining things.
    Some things are wrong with the EU but Nigel Farage is a sarcastic fanatic who likes to listen to himself most likely.
    Maybe we could do the EU better if it weren't for all the nationalists and EU-skeptics who block every attempt that isn't dictated from above. You can't have a democracy when noone participates.

    True leaders see that this is a self-defeating stance and have to force the union on the dumb masses, just like the USA were formed back in the day against the will of a lot of the population in the colonies. Do they regret it now? Some do on certain issues, until there is a war again and they cheer their grande armee that wouldn't be possible if they were all on their own. And they like to rub in how their huge nation has far more economic impact than any of the splintered EU countries etc. When Merkel complained about the NSA stuff they were like "yeah....well, no!", when the entire EU threatens to take steps against it they come along with concessions.

    That people want to keep their own little nations in a world where only mega-corporations and mega-countries count is quite silly. If Europeans want to keep any sense of importance in the world, we have to unite. Else it is divide and conquer for the big countries.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

    Member thankful for this post:

    Jarmam 


  13. #13
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Well drilled. Why compare it to the USA, the USA was build on a revolution. Europe isn't the USA, we share no common identity. On tops, the people are against European integration, only in Belgium and Germany do they find that desirable.

  14. #14
    Member Member GenosseGeneral's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    The heart of evil, to some known as Moscow
    Posts
    237

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I'd say it's more about the division within Ukraine itself, than it is about the east/west divide of Europe. This especially apparent if you examine the organizations present on both sides of the conflict. You will find groups with an ideology you would normally consider very anti-eu(various forms of nationalism) on the "pro-EU"-side.

    And of course, there's probably a considerable middle ground of people who are just sick and tired of corruption and just want to have a new corrupt leader to whine about.
    In addition to the first paragraph: Here is the "freedom" party's party program. Nothing I as a European identify with, especially all this ranting about 'offenses against the Ukrainian identity'. On the 'pro-Russian' side, we have the notable alliance of oligarkhs and communists, who currently rule.

    But it is not only 'a considerable middle ground' of the protestors who are fed up with blatant corruption and an abusive police force. It is the majority. One has to bear in mind, that the probably most important escalation of protests occured NOT, when Yanukovich declared not to sign the AA, but when Berkut units brutally tried to disperse a crowd of only several hundred protestors at 4 am, nov. 30th. It was after this, that half a million of Ukrainians took the streets of Kyiv and demanded change.

    I have personal experience with the Ukrainian militia and I can say, people have every right to be fed up with them. They always treat people like c**p. http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1382468744
    This is the website of a major Ukrainian human rights advocate group, guess what is their most busy section? Right, the one offering help to "victims of the militia". Just click around a little at their website and read some of that stuff up there which is not about the current events. All those "he fell down the stairs"-incidents, or even worse, rape by police officers as in this case.

    Members thankful for this post (2):



  15. #15
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,306

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I'd say it's more about the division within Ukraine itself, than it is about the east/west divide of Europe. This especially apparent if you examine the organizations present on both sides of the conflict. You will find groups with an ideology you would normally consider very anti-eu(various forms of nationalism) on the "pro-EU"-side.

    And of course, there's probably a considerable middle ground of people who are just sick and tired of corruption and just want to have a new corrupt leader to whine about.
    Possibly. I'm not going to pretend that I know every little bit about various interest groups in Ukraine. The fact is that one significantly large part of population want stronger ties with EU, the other significantly large part wants stronger ties with Russia and apparently both feel that is either one or the other, which is probably correct.

    Looking on the corruption side of things, pro-Russian parties are guilty of that just as pro-EU are. When it comes to economy, 32% is foreign exchange with Russia, 31% exchange with the EU.

    Basically, Ukraine is in a very bad position either way. I can't help but wonder if it would be better if Ukraine is divided, with eastern part joining Russia and western EU...

  16. #16
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3,921

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Corruption is rampant everywhere. In the west it's more concealed, there the lobbying and the making of laws that serve private interests is done more quietly, more to the side. In eastern Europe it's just taken to absurd levels. I can sympathize with the people but then again, behind such massive protests there is always a core of instigators. Ukraine is the biggest country within Russia's sphere of influence. If it is chipped away and taken down the road of EU integration then Russia becomes weaker.

    That's the geopolitical side of it. Regarding the EU super government - yeah it's obvious that's the plan. USA has it, now the EU needs it. Later we can merge both to form a trans Atlantic nation. Where does it end? Until we have a Dictator of the Earthen Republic for life? I think there is no need to compare countries because right now we don't operate by Right of Conquest. So who cares if Europe is a few smaller countries and the USA and China are bigger ones? Inter country rivalry is old news. IMO it's about the quality of life of people around the globe and scientific progress for the whole of human kind. One can argue that both can be improved by more centralized power over larger swathes of land, but one can also argue the opposite. IMO nation states and the sense of belonging to a nation, country and culture are vital for human kind and should not be discarded because of artificially created disasters.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    Like totalwar.org on Facebook!

  17. #17
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Ukraine

    8. Implement a criminal penalty for any displays of Ukrainophobia.
    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    EDIT: Oh, and I see they come complete with GMO-hysteria. I'd be interested to know if any of them could name a single agricultural product not genetically modified by humans...

    Let Putin have the whackos. Let's focus on roughing up Turkey and getting them on board instead.

    EDIT2: It's taking me a while to get through GenosseGeneral's excellent linky(this is the "day of constant interuptions", apparently), but the following made me burst out laughing:

    8. Cultivate the best traditions of Ukrainian pedagogy. Discontinue the practice of mechanical copying of foreign models, including the Bologna Process.
    I fear for the future of Ukraine if these guys ever get a say in politics. What a bunch of idiots.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 01-24-2014 at 14:22.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  18. #18
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I would disagree on a nuance there.

    It's not that corruption is more hidden in the West, it's that it has been renamed to lobbying and in some countries it has even been turned into something that people are supposed to see as a positive thing and that is sanctioned by constitutional courts.

    Corruption is a negative, illegal thing, lobbying is an awesome way for the most vauable entities in society to improve said society for themselves by paying marginal sums for huge benefits that create a win-win situation for a few individuals. Corruption is really totally different.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

    Member thankful for this post:



  19. #19
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    In a hopeless place with no future
    Posts
    8,646

    Default Re: Ukraine

    It's been interesting reading about the background to all of this, especially how national identity works in Ukraine. Because the current conflict is about whether Ukraine belongs in the European (aka liberal democratic) world, or the Russian (aka Soviet power bloc) world, the national identity issue is all tied up in whether Ukrainians are really Russians, or something distinct from them. Historically, the two identities have been constantly alternating as the dominant norm - usually because the historic realities become muddled amidst changing relations with the Russian nation.

    In terms of historic realities, Ukraine was of course part of the Rus (Russian) heartland a millennia ago - the Kievan Rus etc. This fact has been used both to place Ukraine within the Russian world, and on the other hand to emphasise ancient Ukrainian sovereignty. Besides these Rus roots, it has been hugely affected by migrations since then with the Tatars and Cossack hosts etc, giving a historic ground for a sense of cultural distinction from Russia. Romanticist literature about the Cossacks and their struggles against the Poles etc seems to have been the origins of a specifically Ukrainian nationalism, replacing more general pan-Slavism.

    Then you have the impact of Russian relations and their affect on a desire for either solidarity or distinction from the Russians. While under Imperial Russia, the elite was strictly Russified, meaning that Ukrainian nationalism was something for the peasantry and lacked any intellectual roots. Ironically, the Bolsheviks fostered Ukrainian nationalism, and it was during this period of 'Ukrainianization' that the Ukrainian identity really became embraced by the whole country. The reasons for the Bolsheviks doing this were to weaken the old institutions of Imperialist Russia - for example weakening the Russian Orthodox Church by separating off a specifically Ukrainian one, and such moves for the first time helped create Ukrainian civic institutions.

    However, Stalin then reversed all of this, taking the view that closer cultural ties would cement Ukraine within Russia's influence. So Russification began again, as Ukrainian civic institutions were attacked, and settlements of Russian-speakers began in the east of the country. This seems to have created a lasting legacy with today's more Russified east.

    There is a deep history behind what is going on, even if the current conflict is over very contemporary issues. I would also note that while we might regard the protestors as the 'good guys', the pro-Euro/Ukrainian-identifying parties have a history of quite repressive measures against Russian-speakers, and they also have some extreme elements in their ranks (I've noticed many swastikas in the riot pictures).
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

    Member thankful for this post:



  20. #20
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3,921

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Russia is baking its own cake too. They saw this coming, hence the desire to do South Stream ASAP. The previous Bulgarian goverment had frozen the project on the behalf of the US ambassador. Not officially of course, but we know they played to his fiddle. Then last year in January we had a masterfully engineered wave of protests that culminated with the abdication of that goverment. The new one is comprised of people who have ties with Russia, who were educated/trained there and who do business with the Russian oligarchs.

    As you can guess, South Stream construction was renewed and it is now going on full tilt. Once it is completed, Russia will no longer be dependent on Ukranian benevolence to sell its natural gas to the western countries. It will also mean that the Ukranian government and whomever is controlling it will have lost their tool to influence Russia and keep it in check.

    Of course, if our pro-American buddies come back in power here they will once again freeze the construction of South Stream and then Ukraine will become a lot more important to Russian interest and a great deal of money and operatives will be assigned to do some counter revolution...
    Last edited by Myth; 01-24-2014 at 14:10.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    Like totalwar.org on Facebook!

  21. #21
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Ukraine

    It's almost as though the world ain't black and white.

    Why don't they give Yanukovich and Klitschko some gloves and let them fight over which side wins?



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Please note that I do not endorse the use of "Tempo" in any way, in fact I find them underperforming and too hard and prefer another brand myself. The video does however demonstrate the power of the Klitschko brothers who are incidentally quite popular here and give the revolution a prominent and likeable face.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  22. #22
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,306

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Russia is baking its own cake too. They saw this coming, hence the desire to do South Stream ASAP. The previous Bulgarian goverment had frozen the project on the behalf of the US ambassador. Not officially of course, but we know they played to his fiddle. Then last year in January we had a masterfully engineered wave of protests that culminated with the abdication of that goverment. The new one is comprised of people who have ties with Russia, who were educated/trained there and who do business with the Russian oligarchs.

    As you can guess, South Stream construction was renewed and it is now going on full tilt. Once it is completed, Russia will no longer be dependent on Ukranian benevolence to sell its natural gas to the western countries. It will also mean that the Ukranian government and whomever is controlling it will have lost their tool to influence Russia and keep it in check.

    Of course, if our pro-American buddies come back in power here they will once again freeze the construction of South Stream and then Ukraine will become a lot more important to Russian interest and a great deal of money and operatives will be assigned to do some counter revolution...
    Yes, Bulgarian cleptocrats are gonna decide about importance of Ukraine on the global stage or whether the South Stream gets built. Delusions of grandeur, what a beautiful thing...

    Member thankful for this post:



  23. #23
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3,921

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Of course they don't. They are bootlickers but they know how to follow orders and hide behind someone else's back. You think that the recent resuming of construction was a coincidence?

    BTW I went to Nis last weekend and I can say I really liked it. Especially the Serbian girls who wore waist long dark hair mostly (I enjoy long hair on girls and these Skrillex skulls I see around really put me off)

    edit: as weak and corrupt as they are, they do technically have the right to say what goes through our territory. They hide behind slow approval of plans and adding re-evaluation of gis measurements and a bunch of other stuff, but in the end, they CAN stall it or halt it indefinitely if they want to. Just because we're small doesn't mean we can't tell someone else to not build on our turf. The pipeline itself DOES decide the importance of Urkaine as currently the only route for Russian gas to Europe. Or do you disagree with that?
    Last edited by Myth; 01-24-2014 at 14:44.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    Like totalwar.org on Facebook!

  24. #24
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,306

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Of course they don't. They are bootlickers but they know how to follow orders and hide behind someone else's back. You think that the recent resuming of construction was a coincidence?

    edit: as weak and corrupt as they are, they do technically have the right to say what goes through our territory. They hide behind slow approval of plans and adding re-evaluation of gis measurements and a bunch of other stuff, but in the end, they CAN stall it or halt it indefinitely if they want to. Just because we're small doesn't mean we can't tell someone else to not build on our turf. The pipeline itself DOES decide the importance of Urkaine as currently the only route for Russian gas to Europe. Or do you disagree with that?
    1) There were details to iron out between Russia and EU. The problem was that the deal was made between states independently, ignoring EU completely. It was solved rather quick and the construction resumed.

    2) There are 2.5 serious players in the entire North/South Stream thingy. One is Russia, other is Germany and I count Italy as half of one. The rest of us are just along for the ride and we should be thanking our lucky stars that the pipeline will give cheaper and more reliable gas, gas storages, investments, transit fees and jobs. If by a chance some local cleptocrat tries to mess with that, he would be given a choice, taking independence and sovereignty into account, of being spanked by German, Russian or Italian paddle.

    3) There's much more to Ukraine than being just gas transit.

  25. #25
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3,921

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I agree with you, but the thing is, the local cleptocrats are sometimes serving Washingon's interests. The previous US ambassador here made it very clear what these interests hold. Give Chevron leave to drill for Shale Gas in Bulgaria. Allow the planting of GM crops. Bog down South Stream if possible.

    Putin came here in 2010. The money were given and the companies to do the preliminary report were chosen in 2011. But our Eco commission gave the go ahead in 2013, after the government changed with much turmoil. The section on Bulgarian soil will cost 3.5 billion, which is 50% of the cost of the entire pipe which goes over land, because the distribution terminal will also be constructed here. There are other factors which slowed it down of course, our government was just playing along.

    Back to Ukraine - it sure is more than a territory for a gas line. It is yet another test of influence. As usual, it's the common folk who will once again suffer no matter the outcome.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    Like totalwar.org on Facebook!

  26. #26
    Member Member GenosseGeneral's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    The heart of evil, to some known as Moscow
    Posts
    237

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    There is a deep history behind what is going on, even if the current conflict is over very contemporary issues. I would also note that while we might regard the protestors as the 'good guys', the pro-Euro/Ukrainian-identifying parties have a history of quite repressive measures against Russian-speakers, and they also have some extreme elements in their ranks (I've noticed many swastikas in the riot pictures).
    Ukrainian nationalism is indeed a funny thing. It is a mixture built somewhere around the Kievan Rus, a romantic view on the Cossacks, traditional clothing (the Vyshyvanka; every proper Ukrainian nationalist owns one) and the poets Taras Shevtchenko and Ivan Franko. Oh and don't forget about the language issue, Russian vs. Ukrainian. Noone really knows, which language is actually the majority's language, most ukrainians understand both or speak a mixture. Yet hardcore nationalists will refuse to say any Russian word and it can be quite risky to use Russian in the more nationalist regions of the West.

    Oh and yes, there is a good deal of antisemitism and racism present in the Ukranian nationalist movement. "Death to all jids![sic]" or "Death to all hadshis [derogatory slang for people from the islamic former memberstates of the USSR]" are common slogans. They also admire the Nazis for fighting communism, as their forebearers of the UPA had some sort of alliance with the Nazis for some time, probably due to their mutual hatred towards Polish, Jews and Communists.


    In fact, these radical elements are possibly one of the main reasons, the opposition gets so little suppport in Eastern Ukraine. WWII is still remembered rather vividly and the term 'fascists' is easy to apply on these radicals, thus making it easy for the government to evoke fear of "these fascists from the West".

    Member thankful for this post:



  27. #27
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3,921

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Again then, no good guys and plenty of bad guys? I also feel sorry for the police officer who got a molotov thrown on his face. They may be corrupt (ok, I'm not exempting the rapists and such) but setting a person on fire for doing his job is lunacy. Especially since they're not even using gas and rubber bullets. If your guys are being set on fire either pull them back or give them leave to do something other than observe and count flaming bottles in the sky above.

    Of course, if lethal force is authorised then this gives leave for anyone with enough media ties to label the Ukranian regime as anti-humane and to get foreign intervention there. So I guess that's why the police just sits there while being roasted alive.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    Like totalwar.org on Facebook!

  28. #28
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    I live on the org, feeding off of what few thanks are tossed at my posts. It is up to you to make sure I don't starve.
    Posts
    8,690

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I would rather have Ukraine join the West than stick with Russia obviously. Someone said that corruption is everywhere in the West as well, it is just better hidden. Well, maybe Ukrainians at least want a government culture where they have to hide their corruption. Paying lip service to an ideal is one step closer to that ideal than simply letting politicians be brazen with their misdeeds.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

    Members thankful for this post (2):



  29. #29
    Member Member GenosseGeneral's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    The heart of evil, to some known as Moscow
    Posts
    237

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Again then, no good guys and plenty of bad guys? I also feel sorry for the police officer who got a molotov thrown on his face. They may be corrupt (ok, I'm not exempting the rapists and such) but setting a person on fire for doing his job is lunacy. Especially since they're not even using gas and rubber bullets. If your guys are being set on fire either pull them back or give them leave to do something other than observe and count flaming bottles in the sky above.
    Well, they answered it with rubber bullets, stun and tear gas grenades. Some officers reportedly threw back stones and molotovs as well.

    And yes, there is corruption in the West as well. But it is not half as blatant as in Ukraine, where the state apparatus and government funds primatily cater the needs of the Oligarchs. There are numerous examples, for instance the newly introduced subsidies for green energy or the way anti-monopoly laws are used to push competitors out of the market in order to create - a monopoly. Yes there is corruption in the West - but in terms of scale, comparing the two means equalling camp X-Ray with Dachau concentration camp.

    This text went viral in Ukraine in its Russian/Ukrainian version and sums up the majority of protestors' motivation, as far as I am informed through media as well as personal contacts.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Ukraine

    The video of the guy driving to work in your link reminded me of OJ riding around L.A. after his wife died. OJ is also Russian mafia?
    "The good man is the man who, no matter how morally unworthy he has been, is moving to become better."
    John Dewey

Page 1 of 121 123451151101 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO