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"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
I agree with you, why do you think I am an isolationist? Accession to NATO would stop Russian irredentism in it's tracks. If Russia attacks NATO ally, we would annihilate them. Ukraine qualifies as a nation that we have been interested bringing into the fold for many years, that means we believe there is a security interest there. Why are we prevaricating here?
I am in favor of moving F16s into Poland and a second CDG into the Black Sea, but this is not enough. We should be preparing to blockade St. Petersburg and Kalingrad if they attack further. We should be working to make the Russian Federation a pariah state.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-15-2014 at 11:56.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-15-2014 at 12:40.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
It's that they base every article the write on Russia being wrong and the revolution being a noble effort of the people. They downplay or ignore the neo nazis in government and automatically side with the West on the issue. If they are supposed to be neutral on internal affairs, why do they have to side with their government on external affairs automatically? They don't even give any good reasons, they just parrot what Merkel and Obama said.
Russia Today is the same on the other side of the issue. A balanced article would not see the strategic needs of Russia as unimportant while the strategic needs of the USA are the holy grail. Russia is not just Putin and he represents the people of Russia as much as Obama represents Americans. Fair and balanced (and I do not just mean Fox News) is about weighing both sides of an argument and giving both sides a chance. What the media does in this and most other s choose a side and then argue for that side. That's propaganda.
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"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
I have made the objective decision in my own understanding of events that Russian military involvement in Ukraine is not justified. If there were legitimate reports of Svoboda killing ethnic Russians, it might be called for, but until that time it is unreasonable. Annexing Crimea when 40% of the population is not Russian is not reasonable. Busing or encouraging provocateurs to cross the border and cause additional civil strife by attacking unarmed civilians is not reasonable.
Are people making legitimate allegations that the US and EU bused in protesters?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...3cicr91vY-IjMg
Vice is providing some great anecdotal experiences
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-15-2014 at 13:24.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I'm guessing two reasons
1) Most of NATO doesn't wish it
2) Most of the Ukrainian population doesn't wish it
So, unless you apply an enormous amount of pressure on European NATO members it's not gonna happen. It must coincide with a very pro-western government (quite like this one) but if they try to do that officially, they'd have on their hands such a crisis that this Crimea thing would look like a small misunderstanding between friends. If they try to hold a referendum on NATO, it wouldn't pass.
And - before you say it - yes, even after this experience.
No, the US and EU financed the protesters. They bused in themselves.
Last edited by Sarmatian; 03-15-2014 at 13:23.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Khakasia is Russia.
But there's more. So much more. Go ahead and dismiss it all as commie propaganda, padawan. Truly blind you are.
http://ura.ru/content/chel/20-02-201...036257620.html
http://primamedia.ru/news/health/10....olnitsu-v.html
Know shit padawan does not.
Know his shit the master does.
Whether you wish to admit it or not, corruption has permeated Russia to a degree unseen in most countries. The common folk are paying for that corruption.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Bad language, Yoda use would not.
To the Dark Side, these terms belong.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Just paid for them, as Sarmatian already said.
I actually agree that Russia is going a bit far but it's not something I'd start a war over.
If 40% of Scots do not want independence from GB, should NATO send troops to force them to stay?
I'm aware that the Crimean president is a Russian shill but that's not my problem. I don't think it is illegal to leave Russia if it's that bad.
Syrians also don't all like their president or the rebels and people actually die there. If we want to protect people from horrible things we could start there or in Africa. So far it hasn't worked too well anyway though. Usually a lot of people die and everybody is left with a sour taste while the next dictator rises to power.
After the 2008 crisis I'm not so sure anymore...
Last edited by Husar; 03-15-2014 at 14:14.
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"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Again??? Do I really have to go through with you what I've already went through with Gilrandir?
1) I never claimed that there is no corruption in Russia.
2) I called bollox on your statement that the average salary for a hospital administrator is 8000-12000$ per month
There are hundreds of thousands of hospitals in Russia and more than a million doctors. Statistics please, not individual examples, and quick, before I link to news articles about 5 Serbian billionares and claim it proves entire population is that rich.
And, btw, Khakasia is a part of Russia, not entire Russia. It's indicative of the entire Russia about as much as Monte Carlo is indicative of Europe (size comparison).
We're talking about Russian Federation. You know, the largest country on earth, can be found easily on most maps.
Last edited by Sarmatian; 03-15-2014 at 14:44.
NATO has to attack to force the Ethnic Russians to stay in Ukraine against their will.
Last edited by Brenus; 03-15-2014 at 14:45.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
Not even then would I seek to overthrow the government before its time. I took pride in voting out the Tories in 1997. People organised themselves to more effectively vote out the Tory candidate, by voting for whichever Labour or LibDem candidate was most likely to beat the Tory. The supposedly natural party of government was reduced to its lowest number of seats in living memory. We threw out the party we saw as corrupt, through legitimate electoral process. And when we changed our mind over time, we voted them back in through legitimate electoral process. Well I didn't vote them in, but I accept that I'm part of the we, as the process was correctly followed and they ended up with the greatest right to form a government. Going by the polls, they'll be voted out in the next election, and that too will be correct. That's how democracy works.
Er, by the 19th century when revolutions were all the rage in continental Europe, we'd been at odds with France for nearly 800 years, while we'd been carrying on an on-off global struggle with them for 100 years with constant threats of invasion in either direction (there's a reason why Portsmouth is possibly the most heavily fortified area that size in the world). What was Ukraine's history 800 years ago? Hell, what was Ukraine's history 100 years ago?
You called bollox because you have no clue. I'm trying to give you a clue, but it seems all for naught.
Here's one more article, this time with national statistics. It's a comparison between US and Russian hospital staff salaries. The gist of it is that Russian hospital staff make a tiny fraction of money of their U.S. counterparts except (drumbeat!) general managers, who make about the same on both sides.
If this is not enough, then I'm washing my hand off you, padawan.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Some people here spoke of ideology as one of the main incentives (alongside money and power) to seek international domination. I thought I could inform you about some ideological background which is quite obvious for Ukraine-Russia relations in those countries but may not be so obvious to outsiders. Perhaps you would understand why 58% of Russians (according to the poll which claims to be objective, though it goes for all of them) support Putin in his attitude to Ukrainian crisis.
The traditional view (which is agressively propelled now) of Ukrainians in Russia is that they are not a people apart. Ukrainians, Russians and Belorussians have common (east) Slavic roots. They all come from Kyivan Rus which fell apart due to the lack of unity among contending princes but common people of it always felt united. Then Ukrainians and Belorussians were incorporated into Poland and Lithuania. Under those their language, traditions and faith have suffered and have been mauled and distorted. Thus Russians are the only successors of Kyivan Rus who kept the purity of (east) Slavs, their independence, language and orthodox faith intact. Moreover, it is a historic mission of Russia to deliver their long-sundered kindred from all kinds of oppression and even thraldom and bring them all to be united again. This deliverance movement has been termed "gathering of all Russian lands". Most Ukrainians crave for this reunification and there is no sensible reason why they shouldn't.
Many of those tenets could be called incorrect. In the times of Kyivan Rus there were no Russians or Ukrainians. Its territory was inhabited by a dozen tribes which only started to amalgamate when the state was divided into principalities. So this amalgamation was locally limited, there is no sense to claim that inhabitants of southern principalities (Kiyv, Pereyaslavl, Chernigov, Halych, Volyn), which now constitute Ukraine, formed a single people with citizens of Vladimir and Suzdal, now the core Russian lands. Moreover, the lands were Moscow is now situated were originally inhabited by Finno-Ugric tribes assimilated by Slavs pushing north (so much for Slavic purity). The very name "Rus" or "Russia" refered to what is now called Ukraine while modern Russia has always been called "Muscovy" until the reign of Peter I (1682-1725). So much for succession.
As a linguist I can say, that Ukrainian is closer than Russian in its vocabulary and phonetic structure to Old Russian. I can't deny a significant influence of Polish, yet many words which in Russian are obsolete or considered as belonging to Old Church Slavonic (as the only literary language of Eastern Slavs) are preserved in modern Ukrainian. I would say that under specific historic conditions Old Russian got stagnated in Ukraine (turning into modern Ukrainian) while it developed in Russia into modern Russian. The same, I believe, happened to Old Norse which "got stagnated" in Iceland (due to limited contacts with the continent) while on the continent it developed into modern Norwegian. Well, Hore Tore will correct me, if I'm wrong in that respect (I wonder how much mutually understandable Icalandic and Norwegian (in any of its forms) are). So much for Russian as a lingustic successor of the Old Russian.
I'm sorry for such a lengthy post, but I hope it will explain much of the popular sentiment in Russia today. History and tradition are much considered, discussed and referred to in Russia (as well as in Ukraine, I should say) while dealing with the Slavic neighbors.
You can find that out yourself if you are really interested. Ukraine was there OK, but was divided and incorporated into empires. The absence of the independent state cannot undo centuries of history. Many countries lost and gained independence agian (Poland, Lithuania, Ireland, to name the few) but that didn't interrupt their history.
Last edited by rvg; 03-15-2014 at 15:41.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
I demand a return of Jemtland and Herjedalen!!!
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Crimea was "given" to Ukraine by Khruschev in 1954 - but not for naught. In exchange Ukraine "relinqushed" a densely populated (1.2 million people) strip of land to the east of modern Lugansk region (including the city of Taganrog). Since that time Crimea (which, as one of the then leaders of Ukrainian Communist Party admitted, presented a deplorable picture) had received its water canal system providing water from the Dnipro, electricity was provided from hydroelectric power plants on the said Dnipro and many other things to boot.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
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