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Thread: Ukraine-in-a-thread

  1. #1141
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Putin's language of £protecting ethnic Russians" is the reason given by Hitler for invading Czechoslovakia - he took the German bit first, then the rest.
    Hitler also cited hunger as the reason he had breakfast in the morning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Putin has troops in Crimea, NATO should be preparing to move troops into Western Ukraine
    To "protect ethnic Ukrainians"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "Would Britain be okay with sharing the neighborhood with a known predator?" Do you mean, like Mexico does?


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  2. #1142
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it.

    This is the 21st Century, not the 19th.

    Putin's language of £protecting ethnic Russians" is the reason given by Hitler for invading Czechoslovakia - he took the German bit first, then the rest.

    Putin has troops in Crimea, NATO should be preparing to move troops into Western Ukraine - Ukraine's first president has already said Ukraine should join NATO ASAP, and once Crimea is annexed many more Ukrainians will feel that way. Georgia, likewise, will be looking nervously East.

    Time to recognise history hasn't ended and to arm up. NATO doctrine should move to holding a Baltic-Romanian line, and matching Russia's land warfare capability.

    War with Putin seems merely now to be a matter of time. I for one am going to start exercising more for the inevitable draft.
    I agree with you, why do you think I am an isolationist? Accession to NATO would stop Russian irredentism in it's tracks. If Russia attacks NATO ally, we would annihilate them. Ukraine qualifies as a nation that we have been interested bringing into the fold for many years, that means we believe there is a security interest there. Why are we prevaricating here?

    I am in favor of moving F16s into Poland and a second CDG into the Black Sea, but this is not enough. We should be preparing to blockade St. Petersburg and Kalingrad if they attack further. We should be working to make the Russian Federation a pariah state.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-15-2014 at 11:56.
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  3. #1143
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    If Russia attacks NATO ally, we would annihilate them.
    Nuclear apocalypse, yay!
    I can totally see how that would save Ukraine.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    We should be working to make the Russian Federation a pariah state.
    Your media is already tirelessly doing that job. They don't even attempt balanced reporting anymore.


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  4. #1144
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Nuclear apocalypse, yay!
    I can totally see how that would save Ukraine.



    Your media is already tirelessly doing that job. They don't even attempt balanced reporting anymore.
    Why would conflict turn nuclear? Can't people decimate some military capacity without going nuclear?
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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  5. #1145
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Why would conflict turn nuclear? Can't people decimate some military capacity without going nuclear?
    Balanced reporting? I've been watching balanced reporting. What is the imbalance that you speak of? Fox news is entertainment, not news. I do t get my news from TV. That is your first mistake.

    Do you love RT or something? That is like Russian Fox News or MSNBC
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-15-2014 at 12:40.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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  6. #1146
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Balanced reporting? I've been watching balanced reporting. What is the imbalance that you speak of? Fox news is entertainment, not news. I do t get my news from TV. That is your first mistake.

    Do you love RT or something? That is like Russian Fox News or MSNBC
    It's that they base every article the write on Russia being wrong and the revolution being a noble effort of the people. They downplay or ignore the neo nazis in government and automatically side with the West on the issue. If they are supposed to be neutral on internal affairs, why do they have to side with their government on external affairs automatically? They don't even give any good reasons, they just parrot what Merkel and Obama said.

    Russia Today is the same on the other side of the issue. A balanced article would not see the strategic needs of Russia as unimportant while the strategic needs of the USA are the holy grail. Russia is not just Putin and he represents the people of Russia as much as Obama represents Americans. Fair and balanced (and I do not just mean Fox News) is about weighing both sides of an argument and giving both sides a chance. What the media does in this and most other s choose a side and then argue for that side. That's propaganda.


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  7. #1147
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    I have made the objective decision in my own understanding of events that Russian military involvement in Ukraine is not justified. If there were legitimate reports of Svoboda killing ethnic Russians, it might be called for, but until that time it is unreasonable. Annexing Crimea when 40% of the population is not Russian is not reasonable. Busing or encouraging provocateurs to cross the border and cause additional civil strife by attacking unarmed civilians is not reasonable.

    Are people making legitimate allegations that the US and EU bused in protesters?

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...3cicr91vY-IjMg

    Vice is providing some great anecdotal experiences
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-15-2014 at 13:24.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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  8. #1148
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    I agree with you, why do you think I am an isolationist? Accession to NATO would stop Russian irredentism in it's tracks. If Russia attacks NATO ally, we would annihilate them. Ukraine qualifies as a nation that we have been interested bringing into the fold for many years, that means we believe there is a security interest there. Why are we prevaricating here?
    I'm guessing two reasons

    1) Most of NATO doesn't wish it
    2) Most of the Ukrainian population doesn't wish it

    So, unless you apply an enormous amount of pressure on European NATO members it's not gonna happen. It must coincide with a very pro-western government (quite like this one) but if they try to do that officially, they'd have on their hands such a crisis that this Crimea thing would look like a small misunderstanding between friends. If they try to hold a referendum on NATO, it wouldn't pass.

    And - before you say it - yes, even after this experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    I have made the objective decision in my own understanding of events that Russian military involvement in Ukraine is not justified. If there were legitimate reports of Svoboda killing ethnic Russians, it might be called for, but until that time it is unreasonable. Annexing Crimea when 40% of the population is not Russian is not reasonable. Busing or encouraging provocateurs to cross the border and cause additional civil strife by attacking unarmed civilians is not reasonable.

    Are people making legitimate allegations that the US and EU bused in protesters?
    No, the US and EU financed the protesters. They bused in themselves.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 03-15-2014 at 13:23.

  9. #1149
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I'm guessing two reasons

    1) Most of NATO doesn't wish it
    2) Most of the Ukrainian population doesn't wish it

    So, unless you apply an enormous amount of pressure on European NATO members it's not gonna happen. It must coincide with a very pro-western government (quite like this one) but if they try to do that officially, they'd have on their hands such a crisis that this Crimea thing would look like a small misunderstanding between friends. If they try to hold a referendum on NATO, it wouldn't pass.

    And - before you say it - yes, even after this experience.
    We will see. If Russia annexes Crimea, the likelihood of accession talks will probably increase. Former Yugoslav republics are next.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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  10. #1150
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Also, it isn't about Russia, it's about Khakasia.
    Attachment 12462
    Khakasia is Russia.

    But there's more. So much more. Go ahead and dismiss it all as commie propaganda, padawan. Truly blind you are.
    http://ura.ru/content/chel/20-02-201...036257620.html
    http://primamedia.ru/news/health/10....olnitsu-v.html

    Know shit padawan does not.
    Know his shit the master does.

    Whether you wish to admit it or not, corruption has permeated Russia to a degree unseen in most countries. The common folk are paying for that corruption.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  11. #1151
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Bad language, Yoda use would not.

    To the Dark Side, these terms belong.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  12. #1152
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Are people making legitimate allegations that the US and EU bused in protesters?
    Just paid for them, as Sarmatian already said.
    I actually agree that Russia is going a bit far but it's not something I'd start a war over.
    If 40% of Scots do not want independence from GB, should NATO send troops to force them to stay?
    I'm aware that the Crimean president is a Russian shill but that's not my problem. I don't think it is illegal to leave Russia if it's that bad.
    Syrians also don't all like their president or the rebels and people actually die there. If we want to protect people from horrible things we could start there or in Africa. So far it hasn't worked too well anyway though. Usually a lot of people die and everybody is left with a sour taste while the next dictator rises to power.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Whether you wish to admit it or not, corruption has permeated Russia to a degree unseen in most countries. The common folk are paying for that corruption.
    After the 2008 crisis I'm not so sure anymore...
    Last edited by Husar; 03-15-2014 at 14:14.


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  13. #1153
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Putin is now a grammatical term?

    Have you decided how to conjugate it yet?

    Russia's president just PUTINED the US president... Did I do it right?
    Ukraine has been severely putinized lately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  14. #1154
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Change is for elections. Once elections are over, you're stuck with the government a majority of your countrymen voted for.
    Unless it loses the touch with reality and starts behaving Yanukovych style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  15. #1155
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    If we were fool enough to undergo a revolution while a predatory neighbour was nearby, I shouldn't be surprised if said predatory neighbour lived up to their reputation.
    In the case of Ukraine the predatory neighbor is always there. When shall we then find time for a revoultion or two?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  16. #1156
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Khakasia is Russia.

    But there's more. So much more. Go ahead and dismiss it all as commie propaganda, padawan. Truly blind you are.
    http://ura.ru/content/chel/20-02-201...036257620.html
    http://primamedia.ru/news/health/10....olnitsu-v.html

    Know shit padawan does not.
    Know his shit the master does.

    Whether you wish to admit it or not, corruption has permeated Russia to a degree unseen in most countries. The common folk are paying for that corruption.
    Again??? Do I really have to go through with you what I've already went through with Gilrandir?

    1) I never claimed that there is no corruption in Russia.

    2) I called bollox on your statement that the average salary for a hospital administrator is 8000-12000$ per month

    There are hundreds of thousands of hospitals in Russia and more than a million doctors. Statistics please, not individual examples, and quick, before I link to news articles about 5 Serbian billionares and claim it proves entire population is that rich.

    And, btw, Khakasia is a part of Russia, not entire Russia. It's indicative of the entire Russia about as much as Monte Carlo is indicative of Europe (size comparison).

    We're talking about Russian Federation. You know, the largest country on earth, can be found easily on most maps.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 03-15-2014 at 14:44.

  17. #1157
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    NATO has to attack to force the Ethnic Russians to stay in Ukraine against their will.
    Last edited by Brenus; 03-15-2014 at 14:45.
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  18. #1158
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Unless it loses the touch with reality and starts behaving Yanukovych style.
    Not even then would I seek to overthrow the government before its time. I took pride in voting out the Tories in 1997. People organised themselves to more effectively vote out the Tory candidate, by voting for whichever Labour or LibDem candidate was most likely to beat the Tory. The supposedly natural party of government was reduced to its lowest number of seats in living memory. We threw out the party we saw as corrupt, through legitimate electoral process. And when we changed our mind over time, we voted them back in through legitimate electoral process. Well I didn't vote them in, but I accept that I'm part of the we, as the process was correctly followed and they ended up with the greatest right to form a government. Going by the polls, they'll be voted out in the next election, and that too will be correct. That's how democracy works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    In the case of Ukraine the predatory neighbor is always there. When shall we then find time for a revoultion or two?
    Er, by the 19th century when revolutions were all the rage in continental Europe, we'd been at odds with France for nearly 800 years, while we'd been carrying on an on-off global struggle with them for 100 years with constant threats of invasion in either direction (there's a reason why Portsmouth is possibly the most heavily fortified area that size in the world). What was Ukraine's history 800 years ago? Hell, what was Ukraine's history 100 years ago?

  19. #1159
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    2) I called bollox on your statement that the average salary for a hospital administrator is 8000-12000$ per month
    You called bollox because you have no clue. I'm trying to give you a clue, but it seems all for naught.
    Here's one more article, this time with national statistics. It's a comparison between US and Russian hospital staff salaries. The gist of it is that Russian hospital staff make a tiny fraction of money of their U.S. counterparts except (drumbeat!) general managers, who make about the same on both sides.

    If this is not enough, then I'm washing my hand off you, padawan.
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  20. #1160
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Some people here spoke of ideology as one of the main incentives (alongside money and power) to seek international domination. I thought I could inform you about some ideological background which is quite obvious for Ukraine-Russia relations in those countries but may not be so obvious to outsiders. Perhaps you would understand why 58% of Russians (according to the poll which claims to be objective, though it goes for all of them) support Putin in his attitude to Ukrainian crisis.
    The traditional view (which is agressively propelled now) of Ukrainians in Russia is that they are not a people apart. Ukrainians, Russians and Belorussians have common (east) Slavic roots. They all come from Kyivan Rus which fell apart due to the lack of unity among contending princes but common people of it always felt united. Then Ukrainians and Belorussians were incorporated into Poland and Lithuania. Under those their language, traditions and faith have suffered and have been mauled and distorted. Thus Russians are the only successors of Kyivan Rus who kept the purity of (east) Slavs, their independence, language and orthodox faith intact. Moreover, it is a historic mission of Russia to deliver their long-sundered kindred from all kinds of oppression and even thraldom and bring them all to be united again. This deliverance movement has been termed "gathering of all Russian lands". Most Ukrainians crave for this reunification and there is no sensible reason why they shouldn't.
    Many of those tenets could be called incorrect. In the times of Kyivan Rus there were no Russians or Ukrainians. Its territory was inhabited by a dozen tribes which only started to amalgamate when the state was divided into principalities. So this amalgamation was locally limited, there is no sense to claim that inhabitants of southern principalities (Kiyv, Pereyaslavl, Chernigov, Halych, Volyn), which now constitute Ukraine, formed a single people with citizens of Vladimir and Suzdal, now the core Russian lands. Moreover, the lands were Moscow is now situated were originally inhabited by Finno-Ugric tribes assimilated by Slavs pushing north (so much for Slavic purity). The very name "Rus" or "Russia" refered to what is now called Ukraine while modern Russia has always been called "Muscovy" until the reign of Peter I (1682-1725). So much for succession.
    As a linguist I can say, that Ukrainian is closer than Russian in its vocabulary and phonetic structure to Old Russian. I can't deny a significant influence of Polish, yet many words which in Russian are obsolete or considered as belonging to Old Church Slavonic (as the only literary language of Eastern Slavs) are preserved in modern Ukrainian. I would say that under specific historic conditions Old Russian got stagnated in Ukraine (turning into modern Ukrainian) while it developed in Russia into modern Russian. The same, I believe, happened to Old Norse which "got stagnated" in Iceland (due to limited contacts with the continent) while on the continent it developed into modern Norwegian. Well, Hore Tore will correct me, if I'm wrong in that respect (I wonder how much mutually understandable Icalandic and Norwegian (in any of its forms) are). So much for Russian as a lingustic successor of the Old Russian.
    I'm sorry for such a lengthy post, but I hope it will explain much of the popular sentiment in Russia today. History and tradition are much considered, discussed and referred to in Russia (as well as in Ukraine, I should say) while dealing with the Slavic neighbors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  21. #1161
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Again??? Do I really have to go through with you what I've already went through with Gilrandir?
    How can you say that after all we have been through?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  22. #1162
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    What was Ukraine's history 800 years ago? Hell, what was Ukraine's history 100 years ago?
    You can find that out yourself if you are really interested. Ukraine was there OK, but was divided and incorporated into empires. The absence of the independent state cannot undo centuries of history. Many countries lost and gained independence agian (Poland, Lithuania, Ireland, to name the few) but that didn't interrupt their history.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  23. #1163
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    You can find that out yourself if you are really interested. Ukraine was there OK, but was divided and incorporated into empires. The absence of the independent state cannot undo centuries of history. Many countries lost and gained independence agian (Poland, Lithuania, Ireland, to name the few) but that didn't interrupt their history.
    Did historical Ukraine circa 100 years ago include Crimea?

  24. #1164
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Did historical Ukraine circa 100 years ago include Crimea?
    Of course not. Does historical Poland ca 100 years ago include Breslau? Hell no. Does historical Russia ca 100 years ago include Koenigsberg? Nope. Revisionism is a dangerous path.
    Last edited by rvg; 03-15-2014 at 15:41.
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  25. #1165
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Of course not. Does historical Poland ca 100 years ago include Breslau? Hell no. Does historical Russia ca 100 years ago include Koenigsberg? Nope. Revisionism is a dangerous path.
    I demand a return of Jemtland and Herjedalen!!!
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  26. #1166
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Did historical Ukraine circa 100 years ago include Crimea?
    Crimea was "given" to Ukraine by Khruschev in 1954 - but not for naught. In exchange Ukraine "relinqushed" a densely populated (1.2 million people) strip of land to the east of modern Lugansk region (including the city of Taganrog). Since that time Crimea (which, as one of the then leaders of Ukrainian Communist Party admitted, presented a deplorable picture) had received its water canal system providing water from the Dnipro, electricity was provided from hydroelectric power plants on the said Dnipro and many other things to boot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  27. #1167
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I demand a return of Jemtland and Herjedalen!!!
    And Vinland!
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

  28. #1168
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    And Vinland!
    Keep it, I drink beer.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  29. #1169
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Crimea was "given" to Ukraine by Khruschev in 1954 - but not for naught. In exchange Ukraine "relinqushed" a densely populated (1.2 million people) strip of land to the east of modern Lugansk region (including the city of Taganrog). Since that time Crimea (which, as one of the then leaders of Ukrainian Communist Party admitted, presented a deplorable picture) had received its water canal system providing water from the Dnipro, electricity was provided from hydroelectric power plants on the said Dnipro and many other things to boot.
    So if the Ukrainisation of Crimea is a recent thing, and Crimea depends on Ukraine so much, should it not be a matter between Ukraine, Crimea and whoever else is interested, on how Crimea should be? Why should the EU get involved?

  30. #1170
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    So if the Ukrainisation of Crimea is a recent thing, and Crimea depends on Ukraine so much, should it not be a matter between Ukraine, Crimea and whoever else is interested, on how Crimea should be? Why should the EU get involved?
    Same reason why the EU intervened in Libya: it was the right thing to do.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

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