Ukraine-in-a-thread

[a completely inoffensive name]

Lets all calm down and remind ourselves that none of us (save the insane) want a huge war with Russia.

From what I hear, the Crimean rebels have planted landmines across the border between the peninsula and mainland Ukraine. Which makes me wonder where exactly they got all this ordinance....

[Gilrandir]

Ha, a lecture on how foreign policies have consequences. I'd have been happy if the whole revolutionary thing never took place, and Yanukovich was kicked out in the next general election.

That was never to happen. Yanukovych knows how to fraud the elections. He did it once. Plus in December when 5 seats to the parliament were contested he showed some new tactics: he lets all the voting process go unhindered, then the polling stations are closed, no observer is let it, the stations are surrounded by titushki, and the ballots are "counted". As Stalin said, it doesn't matter who won the election, what matters is who counts the votes.

[a completely inoffensive name]

That was never to happen. Yanukovych knows how to fraud the elections. He did it once. Plus in December when 5 seats to the parliament were contested he showed some new tactics: he lets all the voting process go unhindered, then the polling stations are closed, no observer is let it, the stations are surrounded by titushki, and the ballots are "counted". As Stalin said, it doesn't matter who won the election, what matters is who counts the votes.

If you simply waited for the election, there could have been observers held to make sure he didn't do that. Or if that didn't happen you could have contested the results and then force the EU or UN to observe another special election to make sure a fair count is made. Also if the elections were widely believed to be fraudulent, your revolution would have had more moral authority behind it. As someone already said in here, once you decide that democracy is no longer the game you play, you can't expect fairness.

[Gilrandir]

Apparently they had enough time to propose a law that would remove Russian as an original language.
And people attacking Russian-speakers in the streets are playing into Putin's hands.

Have you read the law? How do you know what it says?
The law says that if you address the authorities you are to use Ukrainian. The amendment which had been introduced by Yanukovych's party, then cancelled by Maidan government, then the cancellation repealed by the acting president, says that in communities which have more than 10% of non-Ukrainian speakers all dealings with the authorities could be in the languages of the minorities. (Interestingly, this law was applied only to Russian. Other minority languages use for official purposes (including Hungarian, Romanian, Polish) was banned).
THERE IS NO WORD IN THE LAW FORBIDDING THE USAGE OF RUSSIAN (or any other language) OUTSIDE LOCAL AUTHORITY BUILDINGS.
As for attacking Russian-speakers in the street it was a sarcasm. A great proportion of Maidan was Russian-speakers. Kyiv is predominantly a Russian-speaking city.

[Gilrandir]

If you simply waited for the election, there could have been observers held to make sure he didn't do that. Or if that didn't happen you could have contested the results and then force the EU or UN to observe another special election to make sure a fair count is made. Also if the elections were widely believed to be fraudulent, your revolution would have had more moral authority behind it. As someone already said in here, once you decide that democracy is no longer the game you play, you can't expect fairness.

Didn't you read my post? Observers wouldn't be allowed to see the counting of votes. Yanukovych would have done whatever he wanted.
And Russian invasion of the Crimea "is widely believed to be wrong". Now how does it help to stop it?

[Gilrandir]

From what I hear, the Crimean rebels have planted landmines across the border between the peninsula and mainland Ukraine. Which makes me wonder where exactly they got all this ordinance....

You still believe that they are doing it on their own accord?
Rebels (if they are rebels) must be anxious to propagate their cause to the world community. Those are not. They attack journalists (including western ones - search for videos), turn down OSCE mission THRICE and act as if they are sure of Russia stepping in at any time to back them. They do not wish to negotiate - they are set on cessation.
Now what is in store for the Crimea is Abkhasia's or Transdniestria's (or Subdniestria or whatever you call it) doom.

[Sarmatian]

Well, we know Putin is quite happy to murder individuals to advance his aims - why not a few dozen people for the Greater Glory of Mother Russia?

You may hate Putin, but there's no reason to believe that. We don't know that President of Brazil, the Pope or queen of England didn't order it.

Facts point that it was either someone from Yanukovich's camp or the more extreme parts of the opposition, with my money on the latter.

[Husar]

Well, we know Putin is quite happy to murder individuals to advance his aims - why not a few dozen people for the Greater Glory of Mother Russia?

We also know that the CIA/USA likes to topple pro-russian governments and install western puppets through very violent means. In fact they have an impressive history of doing just that, more so than Putin I'd say.

Have you read the law? How do you know what it says?

Friend of mine sent me a copy.

Actually that was cited somewhere as a reason for the Crimeans wanting to part with Ukraine, there was a reason I put "apparently" in front of the sentence. Thanks for the explanation though.

As for attacking Russian-speakers in the street it was a sarcasm. A great proportion of Maidan was Russian-speakers. Kyiv is predominantly a Russian-speaking city.

Well, given that the rest of your post was apparently serious and some maidan-protesters are described as thuggish nationalists who threw molotov cocktails at policemen, that sarcasm wasn't quite so obvious.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Didn't you read my post? Observers wouldn't be allowed to see the counting of votes. Yanukovych would have done whatever he wanted.
And Russian invasion of the Crimea "is widely believed to be wrong". Now how does it help to stop it?

Didn't you read my post? If he refused to allow elections to be observed then you would have more moral authority by revolting instead of overthrowing the government over one veto that you could have been fixed later down the line. Blatant tyrannical abuse of powers gives outsiders a reason to step in, as it is right now its your revolution that is technically illegal since no wrongdoing was seen other than a disagreement over trade policies.

You still believe that they are doing it on their own accord?
Rebels (if they are rebels) must be anxious to propagate their cause to the world community. Those are not. They attack journalists (including western ones - search for videos), turn down OSCE mission THRICE and act as if they are sure of Russia stepping in at any time to back them. They do not wish to negotiate - they are set on cessation.
Now what is in store for the Crimea is Abkhasia's or Transdniestria's (or Subdniestria or whatever you call it) doom.

That last part was sarcasm, obviously the Russians are aiding them, if they are not actual Russian agents. If you are going to use sarcasm in posts you might do well to figure out when others are using it...

[Sarmatian]

Have you read the law? How do you know what it says?
The law says that if you address the authorities you are to use Ukrainian. The amendment which had been introduced by Yanukovych's party, then cancelled by Maidan government, then the cancellation repealed by the acting president, says that in communities which have more than 10% of non-Ukrainian speakers all dealings with the authorities could be in the languages of the minorities. (Interestingly, this law was applied only to Russian. Other minority languages use for official purposes (including Hungarian, Romanian, Polish) was banned).
THERE IS NO WORD IN THE LAW FORBIDDING THE USAGE OF RUSSIAN (or any other language) OUTSIDE LOCAL AUTHORITY BUILDINGS.
As for attacking Russian-speakers in the street it was a sarcasm. A great proportion of Maidan was Russian-speakers. Kyiv is predominantly a Russian-speaking city.

Did you read the law? I doubt it because laws aren't written like that. It most probably refers to the usage of language in official business, when you're dealing with the government or anything set up by the government.

That means only Ukrainian when you're:
-filing taxes
-applying for pension
-getting your ID
-applying for a job in a civic institution
-appearing in court
-starting a private business
-filing a complaint

... and so on and so forth.

They've repealed it when shit hit the fan, but it doesn't give much democratic legitimacy to the Maidan government when, besides all the problems in Ukraine, their first order of business was to try to limit the usage or Russian, ban the communist party and make overtures to NATO for membership... especially when all three actions are included in the platform of Svoboda and other more or less extreme parties involved in Maidan and now the government and it speaks more of their influence in the new government.

[Brenus]

“Well, we know Putin is quite happy to murder individuals to advance his aims - why not a few dozen people for the Greater Glory of Mother Russia?” When and where, please?
And even so, he wouldn’t be the only one; Osama Bin Laden wasn’t put on trial… And the drones over Afghanistan and Pakistan are doing what exactly?

The struggle in Ukraine is not finish, the Revolution is not over. Stop to think in term of Ethnicity. Why no resistance shown in front of the Russian Invasion: Partially because they were there, so not really an invasion. But probably a real worry from the Crimean population looking at what happened in Kiev. Why the crowd in Kiev has more importance that a crowd in Sebastopol? And you might think the use of Ukrainian in all official affairs doesn’t menace the Russian Population in Crimea, but it doesn’t matter, what matter is how THEY see it.
Talk to them, make them to be proud to be Ukrainian and share with them the Constitution.

The problem is of course the Maiden Movement broke the Constitution they call on now to dismiss the Secession (potential) of Crimea…
It is a little bit like if a burglar breaking in a house complaining about the health and Safety issues because he cut himself in breaking the window.

[Fisherking]

Didn't you read my post? If he refused to allow elections to be observed then you would have more moral authority by revolting instead of overthrowing the government over one veto that you could have been fixed later down the line. Blatant tyrannical abuse of powers gives outsiders a reason to step in, as it is right now its your revolution that is technically illegal since no wrongdoing was seen other than a disagreement over trade policies.

Yeah? Seen any federal observers in Washington State? Or Ohio, or anywhere voter turnout is above 100%?

When people get fed up and finally do something it is because no one has done anything but make it worse.

Ukraine didn’t happen over night. I think Gilrandir laid most of it out earlier on.

It was not an east-west conflict. It was people fed up with a string of corrupt governments. It was not to shift the country east or west but got changed into that in more recent weeks or months.

Likely the whole EU-Russia thing was a ploy by the previous government to get a better deal from Russia, who can say?

It didn’t become West vs. Russia until Russian troops (or unidentified rebels in uniform, very much like Russian uniforms) showed up and started taking over facilities and the government.

Or at least until the interim government started making overtures to the EU and NATO, which considering their geographic location was pretty boneheaded.

You don’t apply for protection from gang A, three or four towns away when playing along with gang B, who is next door, is a safer bet in the short term.

[Gilrandir]

Why no resistance shown in front of the Russian Invasion: Partially because they were there, so not really an invasion. But probably a real worry from the Crimean population looking at what happened in Kiev. Why the crowd in Kiev has more importance that a crowd in Sebastopol? And you might think the use of Ukrainian in all official affairs doesn’t menace the Russian Population in Crimea, but it doesn’t matter, what matter is how THEY see it.
Talk to them, make them to be proud to be Ukrainian and share with them the Constitution.

The problem is of course the Maiden Movement broke the Constitution they call on now to dismiss the Secession (potential) of Crimea…
It is a little bit like if a burglar breaking in a house complaining about the health and Safety issues because he cut himself in breaking the window.

I would resort to a different metaphor describing the general attitude to Ukraine in the Crimea (Sevastopol is even more radical).
There is a family with several kids one of which is a foster kid. They are treated pretty much in the same way. One day father comes home and says: "You know, guys, mom is at hospital now - she needs a surgery - so this week we'll have to cook ourselves". The foster kid says: "OK, then perhaps I'll go and leave with my neighbors across the street." Some time later mother says: "Dad has had his salary cut, so this month your pocket money is going to be smaller." The foster kid goes: "OK, then perhaps I'll go and leave with my neighbors across the street." Then dad says: "The faucet in the kitchen is leaking, so I stopped the valve and we're gonna stay without water till the evening when the plumber comes". And the foster kid goes: "Ditto". If Cimeans think they will be much better off with Russia - well, let's give them a chance to try it out.

[Gilrandir]

Did you read the law? I doubt it because laws aren't written like that. It most probably refers to the usage of language in official business, when you're dealing with the government or anything set up by the government.

That means only Ukrainian when you're:
-filing taxes
-applying for pension
-getting your ID
-applying for a job in a civic institution
-appearing in court
-starting a private business
-filing a complaint

... and so on and so forth.

Did you think I was going to offer you legal wordings? I gave the essence. And even before Yanukovych's agents introduced an amendment this law was never an imperative one - people could in all dealings with the state resort to Russian (and did it regularly) in eastern and southern regions and no one was in any way reprimanded.

[Husar]

You don’t apply for protection from gang A, three or four towns away when playing along with gang B, who is next door, is a safer bet in the short term.

I have a plan. We make Poland and Romania send "security troops" into Ukrained from the west to help the government secure the mainland.

Then we promise both Turkey and Ukraine EU membership if they do the following:
1. Ukraine declares the unidentifiable troops on Crimea as armed rebels and asks the international community to remove them, inviting armed peacekeepers.
2. Turkey sends troops to ensure the safety of the Crimean Tatars and threatens to shoot all unidentified rebels it encounters.
3. More NATO troops get ready to support the turkish mission
4. Take popcorn and see what Russia, which still denies those are russian troops, will do.
5. WW3, but the popcorn was good

[Brenus]

"There is a family with several kids one of which is a foster kid" See: You don't consider the Russians in Crimea as Ukrainians. So why do you ask them to consider themselves as Ukrainians?

[Gilrandir]

"There is a family with several kids one of which is a foster kid" See: You don't consider the Russians in Crimea as Ukrainians. So why do you ask them to consider themselves as Ukrainians?

I don't ask them to do anything. I'm just reporting their attitude to Ukraine which I experienced not once being in the Crimea. As for a foster kid, they are in a way: the Crimea never made a part of Ukraine until Khruschev gave it to Ukraine in 1954. You saw in the post what you liked. The most important message in it was "treated pretty much in the same way". I still don't see why should, say, New Mexico deserve a better treatment than Alabama. Because they have a large proportion of Mexicans/Spanish speakers?

[Gilrandir]

My parents have just had a call from my aunt who lives in Krasnodar (Russia). She is absolutely positive that my parents are in danger (my father being half-Russian) which comes from gangs of fascists roaming the steets in Ukraine and shooting at will. I'm afraid they couldn't persuade her in the opposite. When she was asked directly who she trusted more - her brother (my father) or Putin's propaganda, she answered: "Well, I don't know. But TV says such terrible things. They can't just make it up, can they?" Moreover, they are sure over there that most Ukrainians look at Russians as their only hope of deliverance from Western-Ukrainian Bandera-followers and they are ready to render that much-expected help. There was a strange background sound during the whole conversation and it was interrupted twice. My parents suspected eavesdropping.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“Well, we know Putin is quite happy to murder individuals to advance his aims - why not a few dozen people for the Greater Glory of Mother Russia?” When and where, please?
And even so, he wouldn’t be the only one; Osama Bin Laden wasn’t put on trial… And the drones over Afghanistan and Pakistan are doing what exactly?

The struggle in Ukraine is not finish, the Revolution is not over. Stop to think in term of Ethnicity. Why no resistance shown in front of the Russian Invasion: Partially because they were there, so not really an invasion. But probably a real worry from the Crimean population looking at what happened in Kiev. Why the crowd in Kiev has more importance that a crowd in Sebastopol? And you might think the use of Ukrainian in all official affairs doesn’t menace the Russian Population in Crimea, but it doesn’t matter, what matter is how THEY see it.
Talk to them, make them to be proud to be Ukrainian and share with them the Constitution.

The problem is of course the Maiden Movement broke the Constitution they call on now to dismiss the Secession (potential) of Crimea…
It is a little bit like if a burglar breaking in a house complaining about the health and Safety issues because he cut himself in breaking the window.

Litvinenko - Polonium.

Also - the Russian journalist murdered in her apartment building.

The Point is Putin has form, not Russia or the Russian government - Putin.

Now, I won't pretend that the estra-judicial execution of Bin Laden et al was not a dirty business, and I know they never intended to capture him BUT it's when the US murders Snowden or Assange in broad daylight using a US Drone that I'll be willing to draw a direct comparison.

[Brenus]

"Litvinenko - Polonium.
Also - the Russian journalist murdered in her apartment building." Hmm, I don't want to be picky, but, a part newspapers headlines, where are your proof? Russian Millionaire dying in England might be linked with other kind of activities (just ask how the guy became millionaire -clue: mafia) so made powerful enemies, and unfortunately same for journalist.
Now, I know your answer: Putin being a DICTATURE no real investigation has been made. Well, as much as I know, UK did some investigations, and yes, the former spy, former Putin's friend murder has link with Russia, but nothing point to Putin himself.
Now, a former KGB agent could have been killed by his former colleagues.

[Fisherking]

My parents have just had a call from my aunt who lives in Krasnodar (Russia). She is absolutely positive that my parents are in danger (my father being half-Russian) which comes from gangs of fascists roaming the steets in Ukraine and shooting at will. I'm afraid they couldn't persuade her in the opposite. When she was asked directly who she trusted more - her brother (my father) or Putin's propaganda, she answered: "Well, I don't know. But TV says such terrible things. They can't just make it up, can they?" Moreover, they are sure over there that most Ukrainians look at Russians as their only hope of deliverance from Western-Ukrainian Bandera-followers and they are ready to render that much-expected help. There was a strange background sound during the whole conversation and it was interrupted twice. My parents suspected eavesdropping.

Do you see what he just said!

How many of you in the west are used to the news making up the story?

Not that it never, ever happens but their major means of censorship is just not to report it at all.

Here we have the Russians reporting that their embassy in Kiev has been taken over by Ukrainian self-defense forces. Heard anything about it?

http://english.pravda.ru/news/hotspo...mbassy_kiev-0/

Do you think the west is selectively reporting? Do you think that Gilrandir is lying about events he is experiencing?

Oh, by the way Brenus, how did Putin become a billionaire?

[Sarmatian]

Do you see what he just said!

How many of you in the west are used to the news making up the story?

Not that it never, ever happens but their major means of censorship is just not to report it at all.

Here we have the Russians reporting that their embassy in Kiev has been taken over by Ukrainian self-defense forces. Heard anything about it?

http://english.pravda.ru/news/hotspo...mbassy_kiev-0/

Do you think the west is selectively reporting? Do you think that Gilrandir is lying about events he is experiencing?

Oh, by the way Brenus, how did Putin become a billionaire?

First of, you're making a generalized claim on the basis of the statement of 1 person. That he lives in Ukraine isn't much of a confirmation, unless he can talk with other 50 millions Ukrainians and cover 603,628 km² of Ukrainian territory in a single bound.

So, unless our friend Gilrandir moonlights as Superman, his view isn't worth much more than yours or mine. Additionally, there is actual footage of violent clashes in several Ukrainian cities in the last few days. So, the situation is probably exaggerated in the Russian media, but not baseless.

On account of Putin, his wealth officially is a medium-sized flat and 3 medium-priced cars. The only "evidence" to the contrary is Condoleeza Rice's saying so based on what an unnamed person from Russian opposition told her. There were "analysts" who estimated wealth at his disposal up to 40 billions. The problem was that the biggest part of that isn't his but belongs to the office of the president. By the same logic, Obama is also billionare because White House alone is worth billions, not to mention planes, cars and boats at his disposal. The other part of the estimation are guesses without any evidence whatsoever.

[Husar]

Do you see what he just said!

How many of you in the west are used to the news making up the story?

Not that it never, ever happens but their major means of censorship is just not to report it at all.

Here we have the Russians reporting that their embassy in Kiev has been taken over by Ukrainian self-defense forces. Heard anything about it?

http://english.pravda.ru/news/hotspo...mbassy_kiev-0/

Do you think the west is selectively reporting? Do you think that Gilrandir is lying about events he is experiencing?

Oh, by the way Brenus, how did Putin become a billionaire?

I trust Putin more because he speaks German, Obama doesn't.

As for the embassy, you can call them and ask: http://www.russianembassy.biz/ukraine-kiev.htm

Oh and concerning murdering Snowden with a drone...that would require the drone to fly over Russia and fire a Hellfire missile at Moscow...yeah, that sounds likely regardless of whether they want to do it or not.

What about the 600 murder attempts on Hugo Chavez? Or does it only count when they succeed?

[Brenus]

“Oh, by the way Brenus, how did Putin become a billionaire?” See answer from Sarmatian.
And even if you’re right, how is it relevant in the discussion if he executed (or order to do) opponents? The fact is I don’t defend Putin or his policy. I just highlight that NATO and the West opened the gates in invading countries (you know the list) and in imposing rules as during the disintegration of Yugoslavia.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"Litvinenko - Polonium.
Also - the Russian journalist murdered in her apartment building." Hmm, I don't want to be picky, but, a part newspapers headlines, where are your proof? Russian Millionaire dying in England might be linked with other kind of activities (just ask how the guy became millionaire -clue: mafia) so made powerful enemies, and unfortunately same for journalist.
Now, I know your answer: Putin being a DICTATURE no real investigation has been made. Well, as much as I know, UK did some investigations, and yes, the former spy, former Putin's friend murder has link with Russia, but nothing point to Putin himself.
Now, a former KGB agent could have been killed by his former colleagues.

Well, it's more the way he was killed, and the former FSB agents suddenly in Parliament and Putin's refusal to co-operate, and really...

Yeah, come on, Polonium comes out of a reactor - it was used to kill him so that we'd know the Russians did it.

Edit: And lets not pretend Finland will be protected from Russia if it's outside NATO, it won't.

[Gilrandir]

So, unless our friend Gilrandir moonlights as Superman, his view isn't worth much more than yours or mine.

Again, you may mistrust what I say which you are fully entitled to. But I think other opinions here are based on media-delivered information which is not in Ukrainian or Russian, as someone here admitted. I add to it the said Ukrainian and Russian language sources (sometimes such information may be late in being funneled to western public or never come there at all). I hear a lot of new developments which I don't report because you may accuse me of a biased view. For example I saw a video of civil people's (women) luggage being searched at the railway station at Simferopol by local "cossacks". Or there is information of all Ukrainian TV channels broadcasting stopped in the Crimea. Some Ukrainian women soldiers under siege in a Crimean garrison were interviewed. One of them is actually Russian who moved to the Crimea 15 years ago and the majority of others are locals from the Crimea. They keep the oath they have taken to be loyal to the people of Ukraine. But they are constantly threatened with massacring their families. An unidentified military person (one of those that besiege their detachment) admitted he had served in Chechnya and said that he used to do that family-massacring to rebel Chechens. I think he is bluffing, but women are scared.
So, I have access to these sources of information plus (and I believe it even more important) I contact people around me constantly and can see their attitude to events. Some people here may also have contacts but they are sure to be limited to one or two persons.
You may disbelieve all I say me, of course. It is up to everyone to decide.

[Brenus]

“it's more the way he was killed”; You mean like Arafat (Former leader of the PLO, for the youngest of the Org.) according to some Media and his widow. So, Litvinenko was killed by Mossad? But Putin is not Mossad (well, can’t wait to our Kurdish friend to intervene on this point).

[Sarmatian]

Again, you may mistrust what I say which you are fully entitled to

It's not that I think you're lying. I feel that when one's very emotionally invested in something, there's a danger of that person not seeing things objectively. Because of that, I approached your posts with a little more scrutiny than I would have if you were, let's say, Brazilian. So far, your posts only confirmed that. At first you presented the situation as a democratic popular revolution, maintaining that only Yanukovich forces used force. The reality was that from very early in the conflict the protesters tried to take control of government buildings and state tv, that they used giant slings to propel Molotov cocktail at the police, that they used makeshift mortar tubes for the same purpose... You failed to mention that the most militant part of the protesters were in fact far-right and neo-nazi groups who pushed for further confrontation after an agreement was made. You presented the new Maidan government as totally democratic even though 5 ministries are held by Svoboda party, including deputy prime minister. The members of other, even more radical parties and movements, also hold some important positions, like chief prosecutor, in addition to ministerial positions. You only conceded those points after I mentioned them specifically. There are more examples, but I believe this is enough to get my point across.

Russian propaganda of a purely nazi government is exaggerated, but the fact that neo-nazi, anti-Russian and anti-Semitic parties and movements have a great influence in the government is true and can not be dismissed.


Second reason is that you believe yourself to be better and more accurately informed simply by virtue of being in Ukraine. You can be only be better informed about the opinions and feelings of your local community, your immediate social circle and the extended family, which, you must agree, doesn't give you a better understanding of events in Ukraine at large.

[Gilrandir]

The reality was that from very early in the conflict the protesters tried to take control of government buildings and state tv, that they used giant slings to propel Molotov cocktail at the police, that they used makeshift mortar tubes for the same purpose... You failed to mention that the most militant part of the protesters were in fact far-right and neo-nazi groups who pushed for further confrontation after an agreement was made. You presented the new Maidan government as totally democratic even though 5 ministries are held by Svoboda party, including deputy prime minister. The members of other, even more radical parties and movements, also hold some important positions, like chief prosecutor, in addition to ministerial positions. You only conceded those points after I mentioned them specifically. There are more examples, but I believe this is enough to get my point across.

Before I chipped in on this thread I carefully read the posts in it (which I still do). Then I tried to mention the facts that seem to have escaped attention (or were unknown) to those discussing events in Ukraine. I never concealed my sentiment with the protesters. I never denied protesters using force against the police. I never denied politically diverse character of Maidan. I just didn't (and don't) see the point in relating things that are of general knowledge to the discussion parties. What was (and is) the use of updating you on the composition of the new government if you already know it? By the way, chief prosecutor is a member of Svoboda. What "more radical movement" does he belong to? A Standartenfuhrer of SSvoboda?
You seem to be very concerned with legitimacy. Svoboda is a legally permitted and registered party having enough popular support to have gotten into the parliament. Still you speak of hanging Tyagnybok and all his adherents. It is, as you put it, "demonizing" a significant part of Ukrainian electorate. Now this is a very law-abiding citizen's opinion. Why don't you speak of hanging Aksyonov whose party consists of radical Russian nationalists? They attacked and savagely beat people in Sevastopol whose only crime was to try to lay flowers to the monument to commemorate Taras Shevchenko's 200th birthday.
By the way, Svoboda got so much electoral support primarily because Yanukovych deleted from the ballots the option "I support neither candidate (party)". Many people who voted for Svoboda did it as a sign of protest against such deletion.
Let me stress again: I didn't vote for Svoboda and I don't share their radicality.
This is the first time I hear of protesters capturing state tv. We have a dozen national channels (only one of which is a state one) that present different opinions, so what's the point of capturing one however biased it may be?
One more thing about legitimacy. Both sides in the conflict were violent. But while violence of the protesters could be explained (and it is explained by you) by their neo-nazi nature, how can the violence and brutality of the police be explained? They were supposed to use legitimate methods and ways but not the excessive force against people lying on the ground. What would you think of a policeman who, being confronted by a woman in a medical vest and asking him not to fire to be able to take away the wounded, looks her in the eye and shoots her through the leg (with a gum bullet). Journalists got the same treatment. It is the attitude to the press and doctors that is symptomatic in my assessing the events.
Summing it all up: I don't pretend to be impartial (and I was explicit about it) while you pretend to take no sides but attack only my point of view.

Second reason is that you believe yourself to be better and more accurately informed simply by virtue of being in Ukraine. You can be only be better informed about the opinions and feelings of your local community, your immediate social circle and the extended family, which, you must agree, doesn't give you a better understanding of events in Ukraine at large.

So I am worse informed then you who has access exclusively to non-authentic (for Ukraine) media? Well, that certainly makes you an expert in events happening miles away from your residence. Now I know how one should become a connoisseur on something that happens in the street: get locked up in one's house, get glued to one's computer/TV and try to shut one's ears to what people outside say.

[Sarmatian]

Before I chipped in on this thread I carefully read the posts in it (which I still do). Then I tried to mention the facts that seem to have escaped attention (or were unknown) to those discussing events in Ukraine. I never concealed my sentiment with the protesters. I never denied protesters using force against the police. I never denied politically diverse character of Maidan. I just didn't (and don't) see the point in relating things that are of general knowledge to the discussion parties. What was (and is) the use of updating you on the composition of the new government if you already know it? By the way, chief prosecutor is a member of Svoboda. What "more radical movement" does he belong to? A Standartenfuhrer of SSvoboda?

Yeah, I mixed them up. Chief prosecutor is from Svoboda, I meant deputy national security chief, who is from Right Sector.

You seem to be very concerned with legitimacy. Svoboda is a legally permitted and registered party having enough popular support to have gotten into the parliament. Still you speak of hanging Tyagnybok and all his adherents. It is, as you put it, "demonizing" a significant part of Ukrainian electorate. Now this is a very law-abiding citizen's opinion. Why don't you speak of hanging Aksyonov whose party consists of radical Russian nationalists? They attacked and savagely beat people in Sevastopol whose only crime was to try to lay flowers to the monument to commemorate Taras Shevchenko's 200th birthday.
By the way, Svoboda got so much electoral support primarily because Yanukovych deleted from the ballots the option "I support neither candidate (party)". Many people who voted for Svoboda did it as a sign of protest against such deletion.

There are a few, though better disguised, neo nazi parties in various European countries but nowhere are they a part of government. So, congratulations of a being the first post ww2 country in Europe in that regard.

Ideally, nazis should be ignored and never let near a government position, especially areas of law and security.

As for "I support no candidates" part, you make that statement by folding an empty voting sheet and putting it in the ballot box. If you stay at home you're saying "I have no opinion/I'm not interested". By putting in an empty voting sheet you say "I don't like any of the candidates", because that way, your vote is counted, but not assigned. Democratic principles are great, but take time getting used to.

Let me stress again: I didn't vote for Svoboda and I don't share their radicality.
This is the first time I hear of protesters capturing state tv. We have a dozen national channels (only one of which is a state one) that present different opinions, so what's the point of capturing one however biased it may be?

I don't know, and I'm probably not to best person to be asked that question.

One more thing about legitimacy. Both sides in the conflict were violent. But while violence of the protesters could be explained (and it is explained by you) by their neo-nazi nature, how can the violence and brutality of the police be explained? They were supposed to use legitimate methods and ways but not the excessive force against people lying on the ground. What would you think of a policeman who, being confronted by a woman in a medical vest and asking him not to fire to be able to take away the wounded, looks her in the eye and shoots her through the leg (with a gum bullet). Journalists got the same treatment. It is the attitude to the press and doctors that is symptomatic in my assessing the events.
Summing it all up: I don't pretend to be impartial (and I was explicit about it) while you pretend to take no sides but attack only my point of view.

You seem to have a problem with understanding the difference between legality and legitimacy. A government can be at the same time legal and illegitimate and illegal and legitimate. In the case of Maidan government, though, it's both illegal and illegitimate, and that has nothing to do with police brutality or presence of neo-nazis in it.

Anyway, if you're trying to tell me Yanukovich was bad, you're preaching to the choir. The problem is what happened after he was ousted, and in a smaller part the way he was ousted.

So I am worse informed then you who has access exclusively to non-authentic (for Ukraine) media? Well, that certainly makes you an expert in events happening miles away from your residence.

No, I didn't say that. I said that you are not necessarily better informed than me or anyone else outside Ukraine.
Also, I'm not sure I understand what non-authentic media means? Media that makes up stories?

Now I know how one should become a connoisseur on something that happens in the street: get locked up in one's house, get glued to one's computer/TV and try to shut one's ears to what people outside say.

No, getting outside and paying attention to what's happening in the street would be a great way to get better information, if what's happening is exclusively confined to one street. On larger, let's say country, scale, what's happening in one street is entirely irrelevant. Substitute "street" for "city" and it's still true.