Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Sarmatian]

I will direct you to p.134.

Police and army officials getting medals?

[rvg]

Police and army officials getting medals?

I think he means p. 134 (Forced Expulsions) within the document, not what Acrobat Reader assigns

[rvg]

And so the hot phase has begun...

[Sarmatian]

I will direct you to p.134.

Ok, skimmed through it all, I'm hardly gonna read 600+ pages.

Disregarding the fact that the report was written in 2001, and that many of the claims were proven incorrect in the following years, the factual errors, contradictions and bold conclusions of dubious quality, I do not disagree that there was the overall intention to encourage as much of the Albanian population as possible to leave Kosovo.

But, still the most important fact, is that it all happened after March 24th (as stipulated at least a few dozen times in the report), which means that NATO started the bombing to protect Albanians from non-existing ethnic cleansing.

Prior to that, NATO refused the call from Serbian Parliament for more international monitors and proposed NATO troops in Kosovo and NATO control of Kosovo. After that was about to be accepted, NATO added in the appendix to put entire FRY under NATO occupation. They were looking for an excuse and were constantly raising the bar until they have found an agreement unacceptable to Milosevic, probably assuming that they can destroy most the army in an air campaign and afterwards a mere threat of a ground invasion would allow them military occupation of the entire country. Ironically, after 78 days, hundreds of thousands of refugees, thousands of deaths and rapes, they settled for just control of Kosovo, which was basically accepted prior to the bombing.

Afterwards, when they had troops on the ground, they allow permanent ethnic cleansing to take place and refused to lift a finger to stop it. So, saying that it was a humanitarian intervention is quite ludicrous, and I'm not willing to place the blame for it all entirely on Milosevic, as much of a scumbag he was.

[HoreTore]

Yeah, damn those lying weasels of the Human Rights Watch, always trying to find ways to please their western masters!!!111

[Sarmatian]

Yeah, damn those lying weasels of the Human Rights Watch, always trying to find ways to please their western masters!!!111

Did you just disregard the rest of my post? That's not nice.

[HoreTore]

Did you just disregard the rest of my post? That's not nice.

Human Rights Watch still maintains that what happened in Kosovo was ethnic cleansing committed by the Serbs.

The NATO intervention was perfectly justified.

[Sarmatian]

Human Rights Watch still maintains that what happened in Kosovo was ethnic cleansing committed by the Serbs.

The NATO intervention was perfectly justified.

How can you justify an intervention with something that happened after the intervention? We started the intervention because we knew there was gonna be an ethnic cleansing if we start the intervention, and that totally justifies our intervention?

[HoreTore]

How can you justify an intervention with something that happened after the intervention? We started the intervention because we knew there was gonna be an ethnic cleansing if we start the intervention, and that totally justifies our intervention?

Is your argument that the Serbs only ethnically cleansed Kosovo because NATO bombed them...?

[rvg]

How can you justify an intervention with something that happened after the intervention? We started the intervention because we knew there was gonna be an ethnic cleansing if we start the intervention, and that totally justifies our intervention?

We're here because Serbia has problems. And Serbia's problems won't end for as long as we're here!

[Kagemusha]

To be sincere.I don´t quite get why Russians started using force at Simferopol. What exactly the isolated Ukrainian garrison could have done? One has to wonder what was the Russian motivation for storming the base.

[Xiahou]

One dead officer does not a war make. The Ukrainians can't muster an Army and Russia got what it wanted. Actual escalation is unlikely, but it does seem possible if the Ukrainians step it up a notch.

From Haaretz...

Yatseniuk said he had ordered Ukraine's defense minister to call a meeting with his counterparts from Britain, France, and Russia - signatories to a 1994 treaty guaranteeing Ukraine's borders to "prevent an escalation of the conflict".

Frankly, I don't expect anything more than hand-wringing from the signatories, but the Ukranian regime is at least going thru the motions.

[HoreTore]

According to 5080.no, Obama has frozen Putin's Linked-in account.

There's talk of freezing his netflix account if he doesn't back down.

[Sarmatian]

Is your argument that the Serbs only ethnically cleansed Kosovo because NATO bombed them...?

No, it is my argument that while Milosevic and other hardliners would have liked a Serb-dominated Kosovo, they wouldn't dare to try and make it a reality for fear of repercussions, like the NATO bombing that was in the air (no pun intended). By starting the bombing for something that hadn't happen, NATO removed all incentives for it not to happen.

If I'm being unclear, I'll try to illustrate it with a rather crude example - Guy A hates Guy B and wants to kill him, but doesn't do it for fear of going to jail. Even though Guy B is unharmed, the judge places Guy A in jail for killing Guy B. Guy A doesn't have anything more to lose, so he can attack Guy B.

[Brenus]

“The Serbs started to ethnically cleanse Kosovo” For reference, the term “ethnic cleansing” was invented by the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Art complaining about what happed to the Serbs under the Albanian Local (and autonomous) Administration of Kosovo i Methojia.
It was a reference to Tito’s politic that forbade the return of the Serbs kicked out of Kosovo by the Bulgarians, Italians/Albanian Occupying Authorities during the WW2.
It was first the Communist Regime (Milosevic himself) who attacked this Memorandum being against the Yugoslav Ideal.
So, apparently the Serbs didn’t start the Ethnic Cleansing, but the Yugoslav Regime, which is not really surprising if you considered how Tito made the Republic’s borders, dividing very carefully in order to rule.
You have to notice that the Memorandum was absolutely ignored when it was published, even more than the Islamic Declaration of Izetbegovic.
I worked in Kosovo before the bombing and the situation wasn’t nice for the Albanians, basically the same than in Macedonia, but much better than the Turkish Minorities in Bulgaria or the Roma.

“A specific example that proves nothing?” Nope. Because one Ukrainian rabbis, Moshe Reuven Asman, has urged the Jews to leave the capital Kiev following anti-Semitic aggression. He even closed the Jewish schools (22-Feb-2014). To have Jews in a Coucil is a good old tactic employed by Nazi in the past.

“And what was Milosevic and his cronies charged with, if I may ask...?” About Kosovo, nothing:
“genocide; complicity in genocide; deportation; murder; persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds; inhumane acts/forcible transfer; extermination; imprisonment; torture; willful killing; unlawful confinement; wilfully causing great suffering; unlawful deportation or transfer; extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly; cruel treatment; plunder of public or private property; attacks on civilians; destruction or wilful damage done to historic monuments and institutions dedicated to education or religion; unlawful attacks on civilian objects.”
And as Milosevic conveniently died in custody, this will be never really elucidated.
And note that could charges against NATO or/and KLA as well, but it is not, is it?
What was proved by the way? Today at the Crown we had some charged who walked free as he was not guilty…
But I understand you approve the ethnic cleansing of the Serbs in Slovenia, Croatia, Kosovo and Bosnia as you never mentioned them.

“Human Rights Watch still maintains that what happened in Kosovo was ethnic cleansing committed by the Serbs.” Which prove how reliable they are.

[HoreTore]

No, it is my argument that while Milosevic and other hardliners would have liked a Serb-dominated Kosovo, they wouldn't dare to try and make it a reality for fear of repercussions, like the NATO bombing that was in the air (no pun intended). By starting the bombing for something that hadn't happen, NATO removed all incentives for it not to happen.

To me, that sounds like a perfectly justified bombing campaign.

I can't see how it was anything other than a matter of time. Good riddance.

[rvg]

According to 5080.no, Obama has frozen Putin's Linked-in account.

There's talk of freezing his netflix account if he doesn't back down.

Of course now the question will be how many days after the independence vote will Scotland ask to join Russia.

[Sarmatian]

To me, that sounds like a perfectly justified bombing campaign.

I can't see how it was anything other than a matter of time. Good riddance.

Really? That's a very weird position...

Tell me, if there's a danger of things escalating in an unnamed hotspot in the world and there are two options:

A) Place peacekeeping force in control of the hotspot, to which all sides have agreed and that would ensure no violence will happen
B) Attack one side, even though it will surely escalate the conflict and cause massive suffering on all sides

Are you really telling me you would choose option B?

[HoreTore]

Really? That's a very weird position...

Tell me, if there's a danger of things escalating in an unnamed hotspot in the world and there are two options:

A) Place peacekeeping force in control of the hotspot, to which all sides have agreed and that would ensure no violence will happen
B) Attack one side, even though it will surely escalate the conflict and cause massive suffering on all sides

Are you really telling me you would choose option B?

How was A ever a realistic possibility?

Milosevic wanted a Serbian Kosovo. Such people should be removed. The Serbians didn't do it, and so we were left with the bombs. Had the Serbs been a little smarter, none of it would have happened.

The fault for Kosovo lies with Serbia, and Serbia alone.

[Brenus]

"The fault for Kosovo lies with Serbia, and Serbia alone."......

[Sarmatian]

How was A ever a realistic possibility?

Milosevic wanted a Serbian Kosovo. Such people should be removed. The Serbians didn't do it, and so we were left with the bombs. Had the Serbs been a little smarter, none of it would have happened.

The fault for Kosovo lies with Serbia, and Serbia alone.

Did you not read the previous posts? NATO troops in Kosovo was practically accepted in Rambouillet. The day it was supposed to be accepted, NATO withdrew the offer and changed it, asking instead of NATO troops in Kosovo -> NATO troops in the entire country. A) was not just a realistic possibility but accepted basically.

Here's a link for you.

[HoreTore]

Did you not read the previous posts? NATO troops in Kosovo was practically accepted in Rambouillet. The day it was supposed to be accepted, NATO withdrew the offer and changed it, asking instead of NATO troops in Kosovo -> NATO troops in the entire country. A) was not just a realistic possibility but accepted basically.

Here's a link for you.

NATO occupation of Kosovo would mean a de facto separation of Kosovo from Serbia. I can see Milosevic using that as a ploy, but I can't see him actually going through with it.

....And do you remember who it was that objected to the use of a source because it was written in 2001?

[HoreTore]

"The fault for Kosovo lies with Serbia, and Serbia alone."......

Yeah, NATO stood behind the Serbs poking them with sticks to make them push the Albanians faster onto the trains....

[Sarmatian]

NATO occupation of Kosovo would mean a de facto separation of Kosovo from Serbia. I can see Milosevic using that as a ploy, but I can't see him actually going through with it.

Actually, no. Milosevic understood that NATO wasn't joking and was basically looking for an excuse the entire time. We now know Racak was staged, he knew that back then and NATO knew it back then. He knew he couldn't fight of NATO, by that time everyone knew Russia would object just officially, even less than the West did with Crimea.

He had no choice. It was either accept the loss of Kosovo or have a war and be forced to accept it. The appendix, to include NATO control of entire country, was introduced the last day of the negotiations. I remember watching in a documentary later, it was someone high up in American or NATO administration, the name escapes me now, was meeting head of Serbian delegation in a bar that last evening - Milosevic, in a last effort to prevent the bombing asked that Serbia be admitted in NATO, in addition to everything else.

NATO needed an excuse for the bombing. That's why we've heard of "hundreds of thousands of dead Albanians", "mass murders on football stadiums", "Racak massacre".

....And do you remember who it was that objected to the use of a source because it was written in 2001?

I didn't object, I pointed out the obvious flaws in it, but agreed with the general assessment. If I rejected it, I wouldn't be having this discussion with you.

[HoreTore]

It was either accept the loss of Kosovo

I have a hard time believing this was a conclusion he could make so easily.

This is a kind of conclusion even sane, rational people rarely come to. And Milosevic was far from sane and rational...

I have no objections to NATO pushing hard, as it can be reasonably assumed that their end goal was to remove Milosevic from power(a goal I whole-heartily agree with).

[Sarmatian]

I have a hard time believing this was a conclusion he could make so easily.

This is a kind of conclusion even sane, rational people rarely come to. And Milosevic was far from sane and rational...

You don't need to be very sane and rational when you're potentially against someone whose military budget is hundreds of times bigger than your GDP. There was no need for higher brain functions at all. NATO delegation later said on camera that there was no ambiguity - it was clearly said that NATO would bomb Serbia if an agreement wasn't made.

In fact, if you want a more detailed, step-by-step retrospective. First deal offered included NATO troops in Kosovo, but no mention of the referendum. Serbian side has some minor issues but likes it, Albanian refuses it outright, to the general bewilderment of all diplomats who expected that Serbian side wouldn't be so eager to agree. Albright comes to Rambouillet herself to persuade Thaci to sign it, with the words "if you sign this we can bomb the Serbs" (her words on camera). He refuses. The wording is than changed to include mention that the "status of the province" will be decided later, but again no mention of a definitive referendum. Now Serbian side doesn't like it but is willing to swallow it, Albanian side still refuses to sign anything that doesn't include a specific mention of a referendum for independence within 3 years. The negotiations are nearing an end and is increasingly starting to look that Serbian side will sign while Albanian won't. On the last day, Appendix B was added, that states in practical terms occupation of entire Serbia and Montenegro by NATO troops. Serbian side refuses.

I'm quite surprised that you're willing to ignore the facts, defend some weird logical leaps and question the sanity of a man in an effort to justify NATO actions.

[HoreTore]

You don't need to be very sane and rational when you're potentially against someone whose military budget is hundreds of times bigger than your GDP. There was no need for higher brain functions at all. NATO delegation later said on camera that there was no ambiguity - it was clearly said that NATO would bomb Serbia if an agreement wasn't made.

It has been shown over and over again that leaders will happily meet their doom in a military defeat rather than give up land. I don't see why Milosevic would be a coward in this regard.

I'm quite surprised that you're willing to ignore the facts, defend some weird logical leaps and question the sanity of a man in an effort to justify NATO actions.

I believe NATO's goal was to 1) remove Milosevic from power and 2) separate Kosovo from Serbia.

I fully support both goals.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

To be sincere.I don´t quite get why Russians started using force at Simferopol. What exactly the isolated Ukrainian garrison could have done? One has to wonder what was the Russian motivation for storming the base.

The parallels continue....

Then on the morning of 15 March, German troops entered Bohemia and Moravia, meeting practically no resistance (the only instance of organized resistance took place in Místek where an infantry company commanded by Karel Pavlík fought invading German troops).

[Kagemusha]

The parallels continue....

Im not so easily drawn into those parallels. Why run down the garrison, when all you need to do is cut off the power and water and they will surrender soon enough without any effort? I think i will sit on this for a bit before i make any judgement calls upon it.

[Sarmatian]

It has been shown over and over again that leaders will happily meet their doom in a military defeat rather than give up land. I don't see why Milosevic would be a coward in this regard.

Again I'm amazed with the lengths you go to justify aggression. Why didn't Georgia fight Russia to the end but accepted status quo? Why didn't Tibet fight China? Are you honestly trying to tell me you can't remember examples of a smaller, weaker country acquiescing to the pressure of a much stronger one? Seriously?

In the end, it's useless. I don't know what to tell you anymore. This happened in 1999, not the middle ages. You can find the newspapers, the detailed accounts of Rambouillet negotiations, videos of politicians, OSCE and UN reports. If you choose to ignore it all so that no one can shatter your illusion of a benevolent NATO, that's up to you.

I believe NATO's goal was to 1) remove Milosevic from power and 2) separate Kosovo from Serbia.

I fully support both goals.

And it didn't achieve the first and had to break the peace deal it signed in Kumanovo to achieve the second. Why aren't you supporting Russian acquisition of Crimea again?