Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Early on in this thread, prior to the Crimean vote, I opined that the Russians might be moving to annex Crimea and everything East of the Dnieper. Bedamned if it isn't trending that way.

[Sarmatian]

Did you even watch the video? How you continue to equate the situations is mind boggling.

But ya.. this white house dismantled occupy wall st. like it was a vital national interest, what do you expect?

Russian agitation or western agitation, these are still Ukrainian citizens.

I'm just amazed how both sides change their tunes depending on whether they favour the protesters or those in power, and not over a long period of time but over several weeks...

It just illustrates my point how it was never really about Ukrainians. They're caught in a tug of war and no one gives a about them.

[Fisherking]

Governments are always willing to hold the other guy to a higher standard of civil treatment of citizens and upholding the rights of citizens than they do themselves.

I don’t think there is a shortage of examples of this in either the US or Russia, or just about anywhere else.

Besides, the US may be wanting to use armored vehicles and attack helicopters in Nevada in a week or so.

[Sarmatian]

No, you're just refusing to assimilate new information. The West never sent special forces in to storm police stations, the west never paid agitators $50 a day, the west doesn't have an invasion force on the border, and the west didn't annex crimea.

You really are clueless, aren't you?

Let me tell you a little story. Back in 2000, I was a part of student association called Student Union of Serbia, or SUS for short. SUS was created as a student organization to counter Student's Alliance which was seen as a remnant of communist times, generally corrupt and disinterested in politics. They preferred status quo. SUS, together with Otpor, which was the militant arm, was instrumental in organizing mass protests against Milosevic. Both were financed and organized from Washington. I was high enough to know where's the money coming from, but I wasn't high enough to know how much, sadly.
We were never directly financed by the US government. Instead, we were financed through several other organizations, including various NGO's and other student's organizations, but it was clear SUS was getting much more money than a student organization was supposed to. Additionally, Otpor was receiving even more money and also organizational support. For example, this was the pamphlet that was giving the guidelines on how to dress properly.
This one for protests against Milosevic in 2000.


And these are the pamphlets used in Egypt in 2011 and in Kiev in 2014


Notice the similarities. You will also notice that's exactly how those on the forefront of protests during Maidan were dressed, if you watch the video.

It was a well rehearsed and properly funded and organized action. The basic idea is to have a relatively small group, that is highly motivated, properly trained and instructed, and given generous funding, which will then "channel" the public dissent and steer it in the way it's supposed to go, working together with opposition politicians.

The scenario was actually perfected during 2000 protests against Milosevic and is now used as a blueprint. The only difference is that there were less violence in Serbia, probably because far-right organizations weren't involved. Football hooligans were used instead to form shock troops, but only at the very end.

Now, Kiev is again recruiting those far-right extremists and putting them in uniform to combat anti-government protesters in the east. It will get ugly.

So, save your preaching for someone who's more gullible.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“That sounds like an ethnically based society to me, and France only has a "Civil Contract" because after the Revolution you forcibly suppressed ethnic difference in favour of a society modelled on the culture of the Ille de France.”
Well I understand now. If you have the same level of understanding of the French Revolution that you have of the Ukrainian situation I understand you are missing something…

After the Revolution, the new government standardised everything, including language - in much the same way that Ukraine only allows the use of Ukrainian to conduct official business, France only allowed French. This put you at a disadvantage if you spoke Provence or Gascon, or Breton.

You really are clueless, aren't you?

Let me tell you a little story. Back in 2000, I was a part of student association called Student Union of Serbia, or SUS for short. SUS was created as a student organization to counter Student's Alliance which was seen as a remnant of communist times, generally corrupt and disinterested in politics. They preferred status quo. SUS, together with Otpor, which was the militant arm, was instrumental in organizing mass protests against Milosevic. Both were financed and organized from Washington. I was high enough to know where's the money coming from, but I wasn't high enough to know how much, sadly.
We were never directly financed by the US government. Instead, we were financed through several other organizations, including various NGO's and other student's organizations, but it was clear SUS was getting much more money than a student organization was supposed to. Additionally, Otpor was receiving even more money and also organizational support. For example, this was the pamphlet that was giving the guidelines on how to dress properly.
This one for protests against Milosevic in 2000.


And these are the pamphlets used in Egypt in 2011 and in Kiev in 2014


Notice the similarities. You will also notice that's exactly how those on the forefront of protests during Maidan were dressed, if you watch the video.

It was a well rehearsed and properly funded and organized action. The basic idea is to have a relatively small group, that is highly motivated, properly trained and instructed, and given generous funding, which will then "channel" the public dissent and steer it in the way it's supposed to go, working together with opposition politicians.

The scenario was actually perfected during 2000 protests against Milosevic and is now used as a blueprint. The only difference is that there were less violence in Serbia, probably because far-right organizations weren't involved. Football hooligans were used instead to form shock troops, but only at the very end.

Now, Kiev is again recruiting those far-right extremists and putting them in uniform to combat anti-government protesters in the east. It will get ugly.

So, save your preaching for someone who's more gullible.

You've got some mileage there - but until Poland sweeps into Ukraine and annexes the Oblasts that were once Polish, I'm still not buying into the comparison. We're talking about channelling, or even stirring up, unrest to affect a change WITHIN a country, and it's a momentary thing - the change comes and protests subside. Sometimes, the change doesn't stick because either the locals don't want it, or the politicians in question lack the acumen to see it through.

Putin is trying to exert direct[ control. That's fundamentally different.

[Brenus]

“After the Revolution, the new government standardised everything, including language - in much the same way that Ukraine only allows the use of Ukrainian to conduct official business, France only allowed French. This put you at a disadvantage if you spoke Provence or Gascon, or Breton.”

Well done, you just prove my point.
So, can you explain why the languages you mention still exist? And by the way, the French as language of the Republic was voted by the parliament, in all the 5 constitutions, not imposed.
For your improvement, I suggest checking when and who created the Academie Française. All right I give it: 1635 by a King Louis XIII and the Cardinal de Richelieu (yes, the bad guy of the 3 musketeers, probably your source of French History, one of) in order to unite the Kingdom after the Religious Wars.
Now, because it is late, I suggest you read about the Fete de la Federation 1790)… and comparing events from 1789 and 2014 is the high in disinformation.
You can as well refer to the Traité de Verdun between Louis le Germanique and Charles le Chauve (843)…

Really hoping your knowledge and analyse of the Ukrainian situation is based on strongest bases.

[Montmorency]

And so it begins. Now Putin will have no choice but to intervene militarily - just as he planned...

[gaelic cowboy]

And so it begins. Now Putin will have no choice but to intervene militarily - just as he planned...

To say he has "no choice" seems overblown to me.

He is merely choosing the stabby option because he is a raving fascist autocrat.

[Beskar]

He was fabricating his callus belli.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“After the Revolution, the new government standardised everything, including language - in much the same way that Ukraine only allows the use of Ukrainian to conduct official business, France only allowed French. This put you at a disadvantage if you spoke Provence or Gascon, or Breton.”

Well done, you just prove my point.
So, can you explain why the languages you mention still exist? And by the way, the French as language of the Republic was voted by the parliament, in all the 5 constitutions, not imposed.
For your improvement, I suggest checking when and who created the Academie Française. All right I give it: 1635 by a King Louis XIII and the Cardinal de Richelieu (yes, the bad guy of the 3 musketeers, probably your source of French History, one of) in order to unite the Kingdom after the Religious Wars.
Now, because it is late, I suggest you read about the Fete de la Federation 1790)… and comparing events from 1789 and 2014 is the high in disinformation.
You can as well refer to the Traité de Verdun between Louis le Germanique and Charles le Chauve (843)…

Really hoping your knowledge and analyse of the Ukrainian situation is based on strongest bases.

"Suppression of Breton Language" into Google, produced this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha

Congrats, we don't have a word for what we did to the Welsh.

My point, people in France speak French because there was a sustained campaign, most especially under the Republic, to eliminate alternative languages and thence alternative cultures. If you cannot read Breton, you cannot read Breton romances or poems, you do not have access to the culture. Likewise Occitan dialects.

Now, this was a national project to create a national "French" character in order that all the people would be part of the same "Civil Contract."

This was not a natural process, as you implied, it was enforced top-down just as it was in Britain or Germany.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

He was fabricating his callus belli.

See - I just declared Holy War on the local Pagan Tartars.

[Husar]

Still not the same thing. Sarmation and Husar both use this logic that proportion can be ignored if events are similar in principle.

What kind of proportion? How many government changes have the USA supported by now, how many people have been enslaved by US-supported dictators? How many people have been killed directly and indirectly through US meddling in other countries' affairs and how does that compare to Putin annexing a small peninsula without any real blood shed?

Even if we agree that it wasn't nice, it was still somehow genius in terms of execution. Just like all these "popular revolts" that are heavily funded and fueled by the West, don't necessarily lead to anything good but usually make sure that a lot of people die in the process.

Whatever, its not my backyard.

If only your government would adopt that view more often.

[Husar]

That's just devil's advocacy out of spite.

Great argument.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Also 11111 !!!

[Strike For The South]

FREEEEDDDDOOOOOMMMMMM. Funny this is exactly oppisite of what the Russian ambassador said on BBC this morning

Fascist apes.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...ow-343644.html

[Tuuvi]

That's just devil's advocacy out of spite.

I don't understand why we can't just talk about Putin and Ukraine without bringing the West into it. Whenever this board discusses US politics or compares the US to Europe the US is seen as a corrupt oligarchy that barely represents the interest of its citizens. Now in this thread all of a sudden the US is a direct democracy and every American on this forum agrees with everything the US has ever done, so therefore no one is allowed to say anything bad about Putin because that would be hypocritical.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I don't understand why we can't just talk about Putin and Ukraine without bringing the West into it. Whenever this board discusses US politics or compares the US to Europe the US is seen as a corrupt oligarchy that barely represents the interest of its citizens. Now in this thread all of a sudden the US is a direct democracy and every American on this forum agrees with everything the US has ever done, so therefore no one is allowed to say anything bad about Putin because that would be hypocritical.

Obviously, if the Putin apologists here had to defend Putin's causing a civil war in his neighboring state without bringing up every bad thing America has done as some sort of Chewbacca defense they'd have absolutely no arguments. They pout out an avalanche of logical fallacies in Putin's defense, and they would, it seems, continue to do so even if Russian tanks roll into Kiev.

CR

[a completely inoffensive name]

Europeans in here are just trying to stick to their time honored tradition of refusing to believe that two wrongs do not make a right.

[Brenus]

“Suppression of Breton Language” Except of course there is not 1 Breton language but at least 2. So, which one do we speak of?

Was it natural but imposed: both. My grand-father spoke a local dialect (probably base on Occitan) but my mother didn’t so I don’t, because we were not taught at home. Did we lose culture? No, as the traditions were passed to as, but modern life was more efficient in destroying the local social aspect of the old tribes living where I born (the village has traces of settlement before Roman Invasion). In this matter, Christianity was more efficient.
It was seen as bad manners to speak local languages, and as my Grand-Father (and grand-mother) were communists, it was probably part of the ideology (against nationalism source of conflict sort of and united –so understanding each other’s - workers will not be fool by international capitalism, capitalism bearing war like black clouds carry storms, etc). But I admit it is a interpretation from me.
The imposition of compulsory school, but much more efficient military service did the job. The following regimes didn’t need to impose things. They just to put in place the structures and it went the way. The pre-revolution parliaments were taking notes in French.
So, no, it was not the French Revolution that imposed French, and in this matter, the victory of the King of France on the Count of Toulouse was probably much more efficient.
In fact, the most spoken local language spoken in France is probably Alsatian. They have a newspaper, learn it and keep it alive. But the Bretons were not interested, nor the Catalans, the Basques, the Cannois, and others.
You fall in the trap believing that there is one unique French identity and the Breton were not part of it. Nope. As I said, France is a social or political contract. France can’t be based on languages as there is/was more than one. Not on territory as borders always changed (Savoie and Nice became French in the 1860’), The Parliament of Trevoux ( La Bombes- my birthplace) was annexed by Louis XV. Certainly not on ethnicities as northern populations have more links with England and Belgium than with the Provenciaux. Not on religion grounds, we had enough civil wars to prove it.

“Likewise Occitan dialects”: So I never heard of Tritan and Isseult. Ooops, but I did. I even study the book at school, alongside Du Bellay, Ronsard, Racine, Ruteboeuf , Rabelais, and Guillaume de Poitiers.

The season removed his coat
Of wind, cold an drain,
And put on embroidery,
Gleaming sunshine, bright and beautiful.
There is neither animal nor bird
That doesn’t tell in it’s own tongue:
The season removed his coat.
Rivers, fountains and brooks
Wear, as handsome garments,
Silver drops of goldsmith’s work;
Everyone puts on new clothing:
The season removed his coat.

Charles de Poitiers 1394-1465.

This is why French as language, won.

[Brenus]

"Obviously, if the Putin apologists here had to defend Putin's causing a civil war": Well, in my view, if the Ukrainian would have follow a democratic process, Putin wouldn't have the opportunity to move in Crimea.
Because, perhaps I am wrong, but if I remember well, it was not the Ethnic Russian who storm the Parliament (and this I can understand) and then started to threaten the Ukrainian populations. It is not within the Russian Ukrainian Populations that leaders are openly Nazi and openly promote the killing of the Ukrainians.

However, you can carry on to pretend it is a Putin manipulation (and the Russian minorities in Ukraine are just stupid and brainless who don't know what is good for them so let's kill them) if it makes you feel better.

So, now, when saying that the West actions (and not only in Ukraine) are part of the problem, and underlining the West hypocrisy in this matter is becoming to be "Putin apologists", we can see propaganda in action.

Well, I am not a Putin Apologist. I am not a West blindly apologist as well. I am just fed-up of Western propaganda and "we kill people for good reasons" and "they killed people for bad reasons".

[Sarmatian]

You've got some mileage there - but until Poland sweeps into Ukraine and annexes the Oblasts that were once Polish, I'm still not buying into the comparison. We're talking about channelling, or even stirring up, unrest to affect a change WITHIN a country, and it's a momentary thing - the change comes and protests subside. Sometimes, the change doesn't stick because either the locals don't want it, or the politicians in question lack the acumen to see it through.

Putin is trying to exert direct[ control. That's fundamentally different.

That's true. Americans are much more subtle when they're trying to achieve the same goal. Unification of Germany was a Godsend for that. Huge amount of weapons in East Germany and all of it Soviet made. They used it to arm Croatian separatists. After they trained them and organized them, provided intelligence, logistical support and even air strikes just before the attack. Never directly, mind you, it was done through a "consulting company" owned by several retired American generals.
During Kosovo, Americans trained KLA fighters in camps in Albania.

So, similar stuff has happened and will happen in the future. US never directly annexed territory in the last several decades and instead just installed puppet regimes dependent on US for everything, I agree with that, but Crimea was unique in that regard as it was a part of Russia for several centuries and population really did want re-unification, regardless of sham referendum.

Europeans in here are just trying to stick to their time honored tradition of refusing to believe that two wrongs do not make a right.

Which is the eternal excuse for US foreign policy blunders and military invasions.

We made a mistake, but don't question us or oppose us - two wrongs don't make a right.

Maybe US should stop making mistakes instead asking everyone no to oppose them on the grounds that two wrongs don't make a right.

[Gilrandir]

In fact, the most spoken local language spoken in France is probably Alsatian. They have a newspaper, learn it and keep it alive. But the Bretons were not interested, nor the Catalans, the Basques, the Cannois, and others.

How do you know they were not interested? Did you ask them?
We must admit that there are stronger and weaker languages. The task of the governments is to make sure weaker languages are getting more support from them. It is the easiest way to say: "They are not interested in keeping their language" than to provide conditions for people to keep whatever small interest they may have.
As for Ukraine, Russian is definitely the stronger language (there are several reasons why, but I don't expect you are interested in them) and I gave proofs on how it was promoted in the times of the Soviet Union. Now it is under no theat of extinction in Ukraine. So supporting it now more than (or at least equally with) Ukrainian will ensure its further domination and eventual ousting of Ukrainian from many social spheres. It is Ukrainian that needs support now.

[Gilrandir]

"Obviously, if the Putin apologists here had to defend Putin's causing a civil war": Well, in my view, if the Ukrainian would have follow a democratic process, Putin wouldn't have the opportunity to move in Crimea.
Because, perhaps I am wrong, but if I remember well, it was not the Ethnic Russian who storm the Parliament (and this I can understand) and then started to threaten the Ukrainian populations. It is not within the Russian Ukrainian Populations that leaders are openly Nazi and openly promote the killing of the Ukrainians.

However, you can carry on to pretend it is a Putin manipulation (and the Russian minorities in Ukraine are just stupid and brainless who don't know what is good for them so let's kill them) if it makes you feel better.

So, now, when saying that the West actions (and not only in Ukraine) are part of the problem, and underlining the West hypocrisy in this matter is becoming to be "Putin apologists", we can see propaganda in action.

Well, I am not a Putin Apologist. I am not a West blindly apologist as well. I am just fed-up of Western propaganda and "we kill people for good reasons" and "they killed people for bad reasons".

In all the attempts to equate Maidan and Donetsk region protesters there is one thing no one mentioned: Maidan and its followers in different regions NEVER proclaimed any quasi-states and NEVER declared their wish to separate from Ukraine and become a part of any other country. This is the crucial difference which allows to
brand protesters in the East as separatists and treat them correspondingly.

[Sarmatian]

In all the attempts to equate Maidan and Donetsk region protesters there is one thing no one mentioned: Maidan and its followers in different regions NEVER proclaimed any quasi-states and NEVER declared their wish to separate from Ukraine and become a part of any other country. This is the crucial difference which allows to
brand protesters in the East as separatists and treat them correspondingly.

Didn't Lviv proclaim self-rule before Yanukovuch was toppled?

Also, the protesters are asking for a greater autonomy and instead of negotiations, they got tanks...

[Gilrandir]

Didn't Lviv proclaim self-rule before Yanukovuch was toppled?

Self-rule is not a new independent state state with its flag, its own armed forces and claims for an independent foreign policy and appeal to the UNO and other international bodies.

Also, the protesters are asking for a greater autonomy and instead of negotiations, they got tanks...

The central government is ready to negotiate more rights delegated locally, only the protesters are not. They are set on issuing demands and ultimatums. Indeed, Yatsenyuk spoke of an administrative reform and changes in the constitution it would neccessitate. The constitutional committee is already drawing some drafts for it - but the protesters seem to think that it can be done overnight. Many analysts in Ukraine (and those from the East most of all) believe that the instigators of the protests (alongside with the Kremlin and the esapees of the previous regime) are local elites who are thus bargaining for the preservation of their status in the region.
As for tanks, they were sent against the GRU force in Slavyansk not against the protesters in other towns of Donetsk region. At least, not yet.

[Husar]

FREEEEDDDDOOOOOMMMMMM. Funny this is exactly oppisite of what the Russian ambassador said on BBC this morning

Fascist apes.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...ow-343644.html

Send me the 20$ they want and I will read it...
After all you Americans are more rich, clever and prosperous than us so I cannot afford that.

All we can do now is wait for the I Told Ya So's. America plays the great game, but Russia is eating its neighbor.

Are drone strikes on weddings part of that "great game"? Sounds "great" indeed. No wait, actually it sounds brainwashed when you say the country that invaded countless other countries in recent history is just playing the "great game", that's pure whitewashing that reminds me of WW1 rhetoric...

I don't understand why we can't just talk about Putin and Ukraine without bringing the West into it.

You're a very special flower, aren't you? How many topics about European politics ended up as discussions about US politics? But when it's about bringing America's faults into a topic then we should rather not bring America into the topic, eh?

Whenever this board discusses US politics or compares the US to Europe the US is seen as a corrupt oligarchy that barely represents the interest of its citizens. Now in this thread all of a sudden the US is a direct democracy and every American on this forum agrees with everything the US has ever done, so therefore no one is allowed to say anything bad about Putin because that would be hypocritical.

It's all correct regarding the American posters until "so therefore", which should read "so therefore America has the moral highground and all the right in the world to advocate and push for a war against the Russian Federation on European soil.". If you had written that, you'd have represented the stance of some Americans very well. The attempt to wash yourselves clean by saying America is not a direct democracy is really lame by the way.

Obviously, if the Putin apologists here had to defend Putin's causing a civil war in his neighboring state without bringing up every bad thing America has done as some sort of Chewbacca defense they'd have absolutely no arguments. They pout out an avalanche of logical fallacies in Putin's defense, and they would, it seems, continue to do so even if Russian tanks roll into Kiev.

CR

"Putin apologists" is just loaded propaganda that doesn't reflect what people have said, but thanks for trying. You may want to try again when you have actually read peoples' arguments through something other than a pro-Muricah-lens.

Its the opposite, the way I see it. What we've done in the past to all kinds of countries has no bearing on what's happening now, but because we did those things its all of a sudden not so bad that Putin is doing something much bigger and more overt?

Then stop talking about Crimea, that was in the past. So basically the Ukrainian Nazi usurper government is trying to violently oppress protesters in the East, what should anyone do?

Europeans in here are just trying to stick to their time honored tradition of refusing to believe that two wrongs do not make a right.

This would have more value if you had said it after 9/11, but back then you were far more fond of the time-honored American tradition of wanting revenge, which only ended with the murder of bin Laden. Crimea river dude.

[Sarmatian]

Self-rule is not a new independent state state with its flag, its own armed forces and claims for an independent foreign policy and appeal to the UNO and other international bodies.

That is true, but they basically declared themselves independent from Kiev until they get the government they want.

The central government is ready to negotiate more rights delegated locally, only the protesters are not. They are set on issuing demands and ultimatums. Indeed, Yatsenyuk spoke of an administrative reform and changes in the constitution it would neccessitate. The constitutional committee is already drawing some drafts for it - but the protesters seem to think that it can be done overnight. Many analysts in Ukraine (and those from the East most of all) believe that the instigators of the protests (alongside with the Kremlin and the esapees of the previous regime) are local elites who are thus bargaining for the preservation of their status in the region.
As for tanks, they were sent against the GRU force in Slavyansk not against the protesters in other towns of Donetsk region. At least, not yet.

They didn't get a serious proposal or a serious delegation. Only vague talk that there might be decentralization, but no guarantees or mentions of what and when.

No EU ministers flew to Kiev to force the government to negotiate with protesters or create a binding document like they did when Yanukovich was in power.

[Strike For The South]

Send me the 20$ they want and I will read it...
After all you Americans are more rich, clever and prosperous than us so I cannot afford that.
.

Haha I don't buy into that line of thinking

I think most of you are 6 years old screaming "WELL YOU KIND OF DID IT ONCE TOO"

Which is fine, I realize the lot of you are malcontents with no hope, and no idea of how people actually interact

My only solace is that many of you will never have an effect on policy besides bitching to the people at your job who think youre strange

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“Suppression of Breton Language” Except of course there is not 1 Breton language but at least 2. So, which one do we speak of?

All of them?

That's a daft question to be asking.

“Likewise Occitan dialects”: So I never heard of Tritan and Isseult. Ooops, but I did. I even study the book at school, alongside Du Bellay, Ronsard, Racine, Ruteboeuf , Rabelais, and Guillaume de Poitiers.

*Very deep calming breath.*

It is not a "Book" it is a Breton Lay, a sung poem, like a ballard - it survives in Norman, not Occitan, fragments and was later translated into French, prosified etc.

Tristan has an S in.

I give up, I'm going to go away and have a cry.

[Sarmatian]

Haha I don't buy into that line of thinking

I think most of you are 6 years old screaming "WELL YOU KIND OF DID IT ONCE TOO"

Which is fine, I realize the lot of you are malcontents with no hope, and no idea of how people actually interact

My only solace is that many of you will never have an effect on policy besides bitching to the people at your job who think youre strange

Can't you read? It's not about you kind of did it once (it's should be you did worse many times but that's beside the point), but you're doing it now. Disregarding western influence in Maidan protest and their eventual effect is stupid or ignorant, I'm not really sure which one is it always. It doesn't of course ezcuse Russian actions but it must be taken into account when talking about a solution.

[Fisherking]

Drop the ideology. This is not good vs. bad. It is two thugs who want the kid in their gang. One wants him whole the other will take whatever body parts he can get.

Spooks are like the guys on Madison Ave. They want to beat the competition.

They are promoting a product at the expense of the other company. Market share.

Which side is ultimately the worst is just a matter of opinion.

Personally I am for the people of Ukraine. The best thing that could happen is they keep their borders and get money to help out from both sides.

Interests in the west and Russia have gotten what they want, more defense spending and at least a mini cold war that will prove profitable.

Putin however, is a patriot and true believer who wants to return to the glory days with more people under his thumb. That is the problem now.