Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Gilrandir]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27118875

There it goes - local politician murdered.

Some journalists (including western ones) were kidnapped in Slovyansk. The head of Horlivka city police department was kidnapped and is held hostage in Slovyansk. The separatists want to ransom him for the weapons that are kept locked in the police department.
One more reason to keep negotiating - those are not at all terrorists - just a bunch of local freedom fighters.

[Gilrandir]

Lviv was in open revolt. They stormed police stations, government buildings, military depots, armed themselves and proclaimed themselves independent until they get the government they want in Kiev.

The bold is wrong. And the word "independence" was not used - they said they would not obey any orders from Kyiv. There was no talk of creating a separate state or separating Lviv region with the consequent aim to join another country. And they vacated the premises after the "dictatorship laws" of the 16th of January were canceled and amnesty offered.
Now amnesty bill was registered in the parliament. Let us see how soon the separatists will follow the pattern in the east.
It is true, there was the second storming caused by the massacre of 18-20 of February.
Any massacres in the East? Wait, no, according to the pattern that is to happen after the separatists vacate the administrative buildings.

[Kagemusha]

It is - it's also the same guy - you can tell by the camo pattern on his gear. Whether it's the same guy as in the group pose photo - I'm not certain, but it may well be. At least - he appears to have all-modern Russian gear and be highly mobile.

I kind of pointed out a week a go that there are again "little green men" at the move, when i posted the video of "pro Russian protesters" storming the police station. .

[Brenus]

Wahoo... First time I see special infiltrating special forces posing in a pictures during operation... Mind you I understand that this secret agent posing with this hat will go unnoticed... And he probably owns a car as he is extremely mobile, as an astute observer will notice. Probably team-up with the old woman, I say...

[Kagemusha]

Wahoo... First time I see special infiltrating special forces posing in a pictures during operation... Mind you I understand that this secret agent posing with this hat will go unnoticed... And he probably owns a car as he is extremely mobile, as an astute observer will notice. Probably team-up with the old woman, I say...

This is the video i posted earlier:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/new...police-HQ.html

It is the guy and few of his buddies. Posing as "pro Russian protesters". He did though leave his hat home. Still these guys seem to try and make more effort to look like militia compared to the black sea marines at Crimea. Problem with them is that they dont act like irregulars/ militia.

If someone is interested. You can see from about from 3:30 forward how the Russian troops herd in the actual protesters, once they deem the area secured. Unfortunately someone inside the police station disagrees with them and some limited firefight ensues.

[Gilrandir]

This is the video i posted earlier:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/new...police-HQ.html

It is the guy and few of his buddies. Posing as "pro Russian protesters". He did though leave his hat home. Still these guys seem to try and make more effort to look like militia compared to the black sea marines at Crimea. Problem with them is that they dont act like irregulars/ militia.

If someone is interested. You can see from about from 3:30 forward how the Russian troops herd in the actual protesters, once they deem the area secured. Unfortunately someone inside the police station disagrees with them and some limited firefight ensues.

One more proof that those green men are Russians is the word for "kerbstone" they use. It is shibboleth that can help to differentiate a Russian speaking Russian from a Ukrainian speaking Russian - like American "elevator" and British "lift" or American "truck" and British "lorry".

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wahoo... First time I see special infiltrating special forces posing in a pictures during operation... Mind you I understand that this secret agent posing with this hat will go unnoticed... And he probably owns a car as he is extremely mobile, as an astute observer will notice. Probably team-up with the old woman, I say...

Maybe they don't care?

Or it's more important for the local thugs to know they have Russian backup than to hide it from the West.

[Sarmatian]

He showed a picture comparing posters between Kviv and those in the Egyptian uprising.

I don't believe he has touched much on home-issues in the thread, and was wondering if he had any in depth thoughts on them if he is willing to share as I had some intellectual curiosity. If Sarmatian has already done so, would appreciate a redirection to that posting or so.

I did share bits and pieces here and there.

Current Ukrainian bears resemblance to the break-up Yugoslavia and deposing of Milosevic 14 years. For the former, I was a kid when it started and teenager when it ended so I can't say I'm an expert on it, and, in the latter, I was personally involved. I didn't call the shots by any means, but I did more than my fair share.

There are differences, though. The technology advanced significantly. Today, with mobile phones, everyone's cameraman and he can share his shots with a press of a button instantly with the entire world. That kind of transparency makes it harder for all sides to hide their misdeeds, and forces them to at least think twice before attempting anything that the general public might find questionable.

For my personal insight in this kind of conflict, I can only say that the most important thing is not to demonise "the other side" and to try and spill as little blood as possible, preferably none, but that is rarely possible.
Whatever happens, you'll have to live with that "other side". If not exactly with them, at least next to them. They won't go away after the conflict, no matter who wins.
A year ago they were doing this rerun of news aired during the Yugoslav crisis, with commentaries. They've shown a particular piece aired in 1991 - Croatian nationalists surrounded two tanks of Yugoslavian army and demanded their surrender. They were screaming, throwing stuff at them (nothing that could damage the tanks - cans, bottles and firecrackers, that sort of stuff), but the psychological effect was immense. It sent shivers down my spine due to the pure hatred exhibited. After some time, the first tank opened the hatch and a few kids emerged. I don't know their nationality, it was still Yugoslavian conscript army, so they could have been Serbian or Macedonian or even Croatian, I have no idea really. The look on their faces was something that stays with you. They couldn't have been more than 20 years old and they were scared ****less. The first one that came out was so confused he was crying and was delirious with fear, I don't think he even heard the small mob demanding that he surrenders his weapons. I wouldn't be awfully surprised if he wet himself. The entire scene was something that makes your stomach turn and something that could easily turn the public opinion. Even when I was watching it a year ago, there was feeling of disgust in my gut and had to remind myself that it happened a long time ago. But there was a catch with that story - Milosevic propaganda team didn't air the video immediately. They waited several months, until he needed to turn the public opinion against Croatia and then they aired it.

So, the more you demonize a side, the bloodier it gets it takes longer to heal. Not only that, it easier to reignite the conflict later. The best "insight" I can offer is don't trust the politicians and always remember that those on the other side are normal everyday people and that after the conflict is over, they will go home to their everyday concerns, which are, for the most part, same as yours. You don't have to just ignore the propaganda, at times you have to actively resist it. Encourage dialogue and talk, and don't allow the hate to be institutionalized. The more violent it gets, the harder it gets go back.

[Kadagar_AV]

That's a very conspicuous hat that the pro-Russian soldier is wearing.

Hey, maybe it's just a bad hair day...

Anyway... Either Ukraine has the best trained militias in the world, or those are extremely obviously Spetznaz.

Looking back at my old platoon and squad and comparing, they move with extreme calm and efficiency. Just look at how they cover all the angles no matter what, or their general coordination and crystal clear roles of individual soldiers in each stage of the take-over.

Impressive, to say the least.

Well done the Russians!

I refuse to take a political stance on this whole ordeal, as I have very little knowledge not to mention interest. It IS however alarmingly fun to follow Putin's moves on the national and international chessboard... Damn thay bein clever them Russies...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

OK - this is weird - the BBC is showing the worst comparison for these photos: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27104904

The obvious one is the guy in the hat - but they chose to show two different masked gunmen.

The bearded guy clearly pops up in two photos in Ukraine, not convinced it's the same guy as in Georgia or the group shot, though.

The really obvious guy is the one in the Cossack hat - and as Kad says - these guys are not even pretending.

[Kagemusha]

Ukrainian troops attack Sloviansk: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27138300

I am afraid this is exactly what Putin wanted to happen. Apparently up to 5 pro Russian protesters have been killed by the Ukrainian task force. Im not happy with the situation at all.

[Gilrandir]

Even when I was watching it a year ago, there was feeling of disgust in my gut and had to remind myself that it happened a long time ago.

According to Husar, if it was more than 10 years ago you shouldn't be having such feelings - only pervasive forgivenness and enwrapping forgettingness.

The best "insight" I can offer is don't trust the politicians and always remember that those on the other side are normal everyday people and that after the conflict is over, they will go home to their everyday concerns, which are, for the most part, same as yours.

I don't think those in Slovyansk are normal everyday Ukrainian people - they are Russian special assignment force who murder local deputies, kidnap journalists, terrorize the neighborhood and do everything to wreck the elections. As the self-styled mayor of Slovyansk put it, "We will hang them by the balls; there will be no election." Now that hanging business sounds somehow familiar....

[Husar]

According to Husar, if it was more than 10 years ago you shouldn't be having such feelings - only pervasive forgivenness and enwrapping forgettingness.

It's actually what other people have said and I just repeated it...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...tive-slavyansk

Yeah... Freedom Fighters.

Kidnapping journalists and now observers.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

On this note, why haven't any Russian troops been detained and paraded for all to laugh at? Seems like that ought to be a top priority, in fact not having any captured Russians to show off really gives the protesters in the east a real barrier of legitimacy, even as they harass observers and seem to take orders from Moscow.

That's like asking why the Taliban didn't capture any SAS - the disparity in tech and training means you'll only get the guys dead.

[Rhyfelwyr]

For what it's worth, the machination of Putin doesn't change the fact that the Russian-identifying people of eastern Ukraine have legitimate aspirations to political autonomy.

I feel for them a bit, they are evidently not as well educated and as worldly as the Maidan-types in the western parts. They haven't really used social media to get their story across, they don't have pretty girls tugging at your heartstrings. The fact they haven't been doing these things says to me right away that they are poor and disenfranchised.

Which of course makes the aspirations of the Maidan-types no less legitimate. I'm just saying that we shouldn't lose sight of the ordinary people on both sides of this conflict, or neglect them amidst some sort of Cold War-style proxy war.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thats just hollywood talk. If Russia is as involved as they seem to be, they should be there for the taking. The "well organized" dudes in "matching camo" aren't exactly delta force or anything. Sometimes they look downright undisciplined.

At the very least it calls into question whether the Kiev government is capable of doing anything other than make it worse.

You think?

How prepared would British soldiers be to go into Scotland and kidnap American GI's?

Russia has hit Ukraine psychologically - and while the Russians are happy to brutalise Ukrainians, the Ukrainians don't appear to have reached that point yet.

[Husar]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...tive-slavyansk

Yeah... Freedom Fighters.

Kidnapping journalists and now observers.

That's actually pretty paranoid and stupid.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's actually pretty paranoid and stupid.

The article, or kidnapping international observers?

It's only stupid if you assume that the end-goal is to gain greater autonomy, and not to annex land for Russia.

[Fragony]

Hey, maybe it's just a bad hair day...

Anyway... Either Ukraine has the best trained militias in the world, or those are extremely obviously Spetznaz.

Looking back at my old platoon and squad and comparing, they move with extreme calm and efficiency. Just look at how they cover all the angles no matter what, or their general coordination and crystal clear roles of individual soldiers in each stage of the take-over.

Impressive, to say the least.

Well done the Russians!

I refuse to take a political stance on this whole ordeal, as I have very little knowledge not to mention interest. It IS however alarmingly fun to follow Putin's moves on the national and international chessboard... Damn thay bein clever them Russies...

Without having any military experience, they indeed seem to know exactly what they are doing even to a layman's eye. No ordinary militia, they look very professional.

[Kagemusha]

On this note, why haven't any Russian troops been detained and paraded for all to laugh at? Seems like that ought to be a top priority, in fact not having any captured Russians to show off really gives the protesters in the east a real barrier of legitimacy, even as they harass observers and seem to take orders from Moscow.

That might be bit hard to achieve for the few motorized platoons of Ukrainian infantry we have so far seen in Eastern Ukraine. Week a go it was pretty much other way around when the Russian special forces paraded the vehicles of the last task force around in the area after capturing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmyENU-TLTw

[Brenus]

“Kidnapping journalists and now observers” That should go against your opinion: real professionals don’t do this. I remember having guide-lines about how to manipulate journalists when I was in the army. Clearly the pro-Russia amateurs don’t know how to handle media…

“Freedom Fighters.” And all freedom fighters are supposed to be nice and kind? Especially with media that are hostile to them and are reporting only in one side?

[Husar]

The article, or kidnapping international observers?

It's only stupid if you assume that the end-goal is to gain greater autonomy, and not to annex land for Russia.

Kidnapping international observers. And I find it stupid regardless of their goal. But it clearly shows that everybody there is really paranoid by now. The Maidan movement was sold as stabilizing the country and it did the exact opposite, regardless of the good intentions it may have started with.

[Gilrandir]

Kidnapping international observers. And I find it stupid regardless of their goal. But it clearly shows that everybody there is really paranoid by now.

Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield when (or if) they are attacked. Separatists in Slovyansk are said to establish themselves in kindergartens and schools as well.

[Gilrandir]

Kidnapping international observers. And I find it stupid regardless of their goal. But it clearly shows that everybody there is really paranoid by now.

Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield when (or if) they are attacked. Separatists in Slovyansk are said to establish themselves in kindergartens and schools as well.
Sorry, it somehow repeated itself.

[Brenus]

"Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield " How do you know this (you should have add "human" shield, it makes it more vile)?

[Sarmatian]

"Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield " How do you know this (you should have add "human" shield, it makes it more vile)?

Because they're pro-Russian. They eat babies and kick puppies.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield when (or if) they are attacked. Separatists in Slovyansk are said to establish themselves in kindergartens and schools as well.
Sorry, it somehow repeated itself.

Actually - I suspect this is being used as a bargaining chip - Russia will "negotiate" the freedom of the hostages, making it politically more difficult to impose further sanctions. At the least, it could delay sanctions, at worst it can be used to claim the US et al show "bad faith" by imposing sanctions while/after Russia is negotiating to free NATO-aligned hostages.

[Kadagar_AV]

I hate conflicts without an apparent "good side".

Come on Western World, we can do better than this with the money we spend on psy-ops


I think the basis of the problem we in the West face is something along the lines of:

USA: Putin be evil 'cause he be gay.
Europe: Actually Putin is evil because of his anti-gay policies.
USA: Nevah mind. He be evil 'cause he be socialist.
Europe: Hey! We are socialistic! He is evil because he is authoritarian!

Average Western Voter: *Mind Blown*

[Gilrandir]

Because they're pro-Russian. They eat babies and kick puppies.

It is what Putin said about his troops blocking Ukrainian army garrisons in Crimea: "We will put women with children before our troops, not behind, but before; I will see how they will shoot at the women and children". Evidently women with children are not enough for these guys. And it is a barganing chip as well, so two birds with one stone.
But I can't help but wonder how you can still be fond of anyone doing either. Your "never demonize anyone (except the nazis)" motto turns into "kidnapping and killing the kidnapped is OK if there is a noble cause behind it (except the nazis)". My congratulations.
I'm sorry, there are some nazis on the pro-Russian side.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...823826439.html
Will we hear any "scum" and wish to hang anyone now?