Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Gilrandir]

Putin gave out medals to Russian troops "For returning Crimea".

Check out the date when the Reconquista started: February 20. It is when Yanukovych was signing his treaty with the opposition leaders. The president that Russia still considers equal was at power but Russia was already opening its jaws to bite away a piece of brotherly meat.

[Brenus]

“Your "never demonize anyone (except the nazis)" motto turns into "kidnapping and killing the kidnapped is OK if there is a noble cause behind it (except the nazis)". My congratulations."

I don’t have to demonise Nazi. They did it themselves. Or do you equal Nazi and Russians? Do you think Nazis had a point? That they were not that evil?
Nazis don’t have a noble cause, so they can’t kill for a noble cause.
YOUR choice of words for journalist arrested (or OSCE) was done on the purpose to equal the “pro-Russia” to Mafiosi, to deny them any political legitimacy but as some wrote here mere thugs and outlaws.
About you link, when I studied History at University, long time ago, the first thing I was told was to look at the author: Your: Opinion (not fact)of “ Halya Coynash a journalist and member of the Kharkiv Human Rights Group”. Right: OPINION. KHARKIV. JOURNALIST. HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP. That is a lot of suspicions for one person on her impartiality.
And reading the text just confirm it: “Russia's propaganda machine”, “the armed "federalists" (do note the use of brackets)” , “puppet government "elected" (note again the use of brackets, and till now, the Ukrainian authorities that size power in Kiev are still not elected)”, and I can carry on and on.
All this to tell you should read what you link.

“It is what Putin said about his troops blocking Ukrainian army garrisons in Crimea”: When and where? No vague indication, please, date and place. I will check, because I don’t see why Putin would have the need to say this. I remind you that the invasion of Crimea cost less lives than the liberation (or attempt) of other parts of Ukraine at the moment.

[Sarmatian]

“Your "never demonize anyone (except the nazis)" motto turns into "kidnapping and killing the kidnapped is OK if there is a noble cause behind it (except the nazis)". My congratulations."

I don’t have to demonise Nazi. They did it themselves. Or do you equal Nazi and Russians? Do you think Nazis had a point? That they were not that evil?
Nazis don’t have a noble cause, so they can’t kill for a noble cause.

I think that was directed at me.

The problem is, I got really bored with correcting his sensationalist statements on every single page. Rock on Gilrandir.

So, we were at "human shield, brotherly meat and premeditated medals"... Do go on.

[Husar]

Their aim is to cull as many hostages as they can to use them as a shield when (or if) they are attacked. Separatists in Slovyansk are said to establish themselves in kindergartens and schools as well.

Eh, I just got new information. Apparently the Bulgarian member had a notebook with him where he had written about his spying activities aginst Ukraine and Russia, about meetings with other spies and so on. Using an international observer mission to send spies into a conflict zone is also stupid by the way. And it's weird because other sources don't mention as Bulgarian member.

[gaelic cowboy]

Eh, I just got new information. Apparently the Bulgarian member had a notebook with him where he had written about his spying activities aginst Ukraine and Russia, about meetings with other spies and so on. Using an international observer mission to send spies into a conflict zone is also stupid by the way. And it's weird because other sources don't mention as Bulgarian member.

That's a load of a spy who writes down on a notepad what he is doing.

Also its been denied that a bulgarian was with the team.

[Sarmatian]

Whatever it was, unarmed observers should never be arrested or detained.

[Gilrandir]

“Your "never demonize anyone (except the nazis)" motto turns into "kidnapping and killing the kidnapped is OK if there is a noble cause behind it (except the nazis)". My congratulations."

I don’t have to demonise Nazi. They did it themselves. Or do you equal Nazi and Russians? Do you think Nazis had a point? That they were not that evil?
Nazis don’t have a noble cause, so they can’t kill for a noble cause.
YOUR choice of words for journalist arrested (or OSCE) was done on the purpose to equal the “pro-Russia” to Mafiosi, to deny them any political legitimacy but as some wrote here mere thugs and outlaws.
About you link, when I studied History at University, long time ago, the first thing I was told was to look at the author: Your: Opinion (not fact)of “ Halya Coynash a journalist and member of the Kharkiv Human Rights Group”. Right: OPINION. KHARKIV. JOURNALIST. HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP. That is a lot of suspicions for one person on her impartiality.
And reading the text just confirm it: “Russia's propaganda machine”, “the armed "federalists" (do note the use of brackets)” , “puppet government "elected" (note again the use of brackets, and till now, the Ukrainian authorities that size power in Kiev are still not elected)”, and I can carry on and on.
All this to tell you should read what you link.

So, you mean to say that there is no Russian propaganda machine? OK, have it your own way. I have a colleague whose grandmother lives in Rostov (Russia) and her mother went to see her (the grandmother) in the middle of March. She spent there a week and then called her daughter (in Ukraine) and asked her what foodstuffs and how much she must bring. When my colleague asked her why she wants to do that she answered that TV was constantly telling them that Ukraine is on the verge of famine, food lines are everywhere and the shelves in the supermarkets are empty while the prices are rocketing. When they my colleague and her mother got to the root of it, they figured out that all this happened after Yatsenyuk saying that Ukrainians will have to tighten their belts. Russian TV developed the story dramatically. And my colleague's mom believed it with all her heart though she spent there JUST A WEEK. So no Russian propaganda machine - just honest journalists who carry on their duty with dignity.
As for the second quote, here is the complete sentence you took it from: "It is no accident that the puppet government "elected" after armed Russian soldiers seized government buildings in the Crimea immediately closed down almost all Ukrainian media and gave the broadcasting frequencies to Russian channels".
It is the government of CRIMEA that is meant here, not the government of UKRAINE!! Ukrainian government didn't close down the Ukrainian media in Crimea.
And Ukrainian government is appointed not elected anyway. So, do what you preach: you should read what I link.

“It is what Putin said about his troops blocking Ukrainian army garrisons in Crimea”: When and where? No vague indication, please, date and place. I will check, because I don’t see why Putin would have the need to say this.

I hear and see a lot more than I refer to. Unfortunately (for you), most of it is either in Russian or in Ukrainian, so it would be of no use to quote or link to the video. More unfortunately, my halting proficiency in using computers in general and internet in particular (plus lack of time) doesn't allow me to search for what I heard and saw with English translation or referred to in an article in English.
So, either you have to believe me or disbelieve me (the same with Rostov grandmother story). But everything I say gets confirmed some time later in sources you can understand or/and trust. Then I read it in the articles linked to by some people here on the forum.
I saw Putin giving an interview to Russian TV journalists during the Crimean operation and heard him say what I quoted verbatim. I don't remember the exact date - days are so eventful that I can barely remember who said anything of moment a week ago.
I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea (in the middle of March) and in the middle of April he readily admitted that behind Crimean self-defence there always were Russian army detachments. And now there are medals pouring out aplenty. Again no link. So take it or leave it.
I rather expect you to leave it as you are likely to believe, well, what you like to believe, link or no. If there is no link it means I'm making it all up; when there is a link - the source is dubiuos and untrustworthy.
It is Sarmatian all over again. He is sure there are lily-white, fluffy and cute guys in Donetsk region (no Nazis, oh no, my precious). He is sure if I write something unsavoury about them it is because they are pro-Russians, not because they do something unsavoury. He claimed that people in central Ukraine were in two minds how to treat eastern separatists. When I asked for the source he just disregarded the post.
After all, there other people here who may trust more what I write about without links after every second word.

[Gilrandir]

The problem is, I got really bored with correcting his sensationalist statements on every single page. Rock on Gilrandir.

So, we were at "human shield, brotherly meat and premeditated medals"... Do go on.

It seems that you are the only person here (oh, I'm sorry, there is Brenus as well) who have a problem with what I say. When someone defends his stance it is boring. This someone should just shut up, bow to the exalted one who disagreed with him and never dare to offer his vision of events any more.
Your whole attitide to the situation is: "Ukraine landed itself into this pickle by inviting Nazis to rule it, so whatever is done by Ukraine is wrong and serve it right. Russia has a good cause to interfere and pro-Russains are good as long as they fight back the Nazis in Kyiv". The proofs that it might be otherwise are boring sensationalist statements. But when you post pictures of uniforms of Egyptian protesters and compare them to those of Maidan it is a uniquely insightful observation worth a pulitzer. So, no Russian nazis involved in Donetsk, medals are fake, the date on them is photoshopped... Rock on Sarmatian.

[Husar]

The dates could also refer to the beginning of the acute crisys or so but then I'm not familiar with medal-dates. I haven't even seen a rifle from the inside.

[Viking]

Putin, the considerate person that he is, is very worried about the status of the Russian language in Ukraine. Therefore, we expect Russia, having been under his control for so long, to be a model example:

Little attention is paid, they say, to the fact that, unlike the Russian minority in Ukraine, the Ukrainian minority in Russia has no access to schools or universities in the Ukrainian language

[...]

"In Russia, Ukrainians are not considered a separate nation, and the Ukrainian language is considered a dialect of Russian," said Gasan Gusejnov, a professor at the National Research University's Higher School of Economics in Moscow, who has written on Ukrainian identity.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...132154242.html

Well, if that's the case; then Russian is conversely a dialect of Ukrainian and does not need legal recognition in Ukraine in addition to Ukrainian; so problem solved. Putin has led the way for us.

[Brenus]

“And Ukrainian government is appointed not elected anyway. So, do what you preach: you should read what I link.” Ok. I re-phrase: You should understand what I said. The ORIGIN of your link is highly suspect of anti-Russian propaganda. The sentences I isolated used a very defamatory language against all the Pro-Russian movement. It was not about what she claim under an opinion.

“So, you mean to say that there is no Russian propaganda machine?” Of course there is. Never denied it, and as I said before, I don’t support Putin in his effort to push to the west. What I am saying is his push was (is) the result of one, a constant push of NATO near the Russian Borders, linked with a very unfriendly language against Russian (still considered as USSR), and two, a real political problem in Ukraine, increased by EU and the presence of 4 Nazi in the actual executive power.

“I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea”: See, and that why I don’t believe in what you say. Russian Troops were in Crimea very officially and legally due to the Treaty between Ukraine and Russia. Can you explain why Putin would have denied a fact that was legitimate and legal?

[Sarmatian]

It is Sarmatian all over again. He is sure there are lily-white, fluffy and cute guys in Donetsk region (no Nazis, oh no, my precious). He is sure if I write something unsavoury about them it is because they are pro-Russians, not because they do something unsavoury. He claimed that people in central Ukraine were in two minds how to treat eastern separatists. When I asked for the source he just disregarded the post.
After all, there other people here who may trust more what I write about without links after every second word.

My dear friend, I never referred to eastern protesters as completely innocent. Go back and re-read. I objected to your portrayal of Maidan protesters as freedom fighters who, in the course of fight for freedom, may have made some collateral damage, while protesters in the east were fascists, murderers, anti-Semitic, baby-eating racist bigots who hunt Ukrainian speakers.

Neither side is innocent, both are at least aided by foreign powers, if not outright financed and/or controlled.

You (as in Ukrainians) are screwed either way. You could have tried to minimise the damage when you saw what's happening, you didn't and still don't and the price you're paying is getting higher and will continue to rise. That is also partially western fault, because they directly and indirectly encourage that course of action while doing almost nothing to practically support you and will continue to do nothing, according to their own admission. You're simply pawns in the latest season of "Let's poke the Bear and let someone else deal with teeth and claws while we shout bad Bear from a safe distance for some time, before we go off with the Bear in sunset" hit series.

The fault of Ukraine itself, on the other hand, is not being able to get itself in order for quarter of a century, is on a brink of economic collapse now and its standard of living is worse than in Soviet times.

Also the reason why I didn't respond to your demand for a source is because there isn't one. It was a personal opinion based on multitude of reports and assessments. Obviously there aren't any poll results for a roughly defined geographic term like central Ukraine.

I understand what's Ukraine going through better than most, and as a rule, I try to address the cause and not the symptoms which you may have mistaken for being anti-Ukrainian. But, as I've said, I won't correct your sensationalist statements any more. Knock yourself out.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's a load of a spy who writes down on a notepad what he is doing.

Also its been denied that a bulgarian was with the team.

I've heard more plausible things from North Korea.

[HoreTore]

“I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea”: See, and that why I don’t believe in what you say. Russian Troops were in Crimea very officially and legally due to the Treaty between Ukraine and Russia. Can you explain why Putin would have denied a fact that was legitimate and legal?

Uhm....

The Russian troops who were in Crimea were to remain within their bases according to the treaty. Putin claimed they did, it's pretty darn obvious they were milling about all over the place.

The Crimean treaty wasn't a blank check for Russians to run wherever they wanted on Crimea, but specified where they should and should not be. It should be obvious that what is being refferred to here is that the Russian troops were outside their bases, not that they weren't present at the bases(which wouldn't make sense).

[Husar]

That's a load of a spy who writes down on a notepad what he is doing.

I know, a real spy would use microfilm.

And it's weird because other sources don't mention as Bulgarian member.

Also its been denied that a bulgarian was with the team.

Got me there.

In other news, apparently the Swedish guy who has diabetes has been released while the German ones basically said they're being treated as guests, not as prisoners. Maybe they're used as human shields so the Ukrainian army doesn't come to massacre all Russian-speakers in the city?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is a benign illegal confinement any less illegal?

America did not seriously maltreat, starve, or torture Americans of Japanese descent who were interned during World War II -- but the act was still wrong and grossly unconstitutional.

[Gilrandir]

“I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea”: See, and that why I don’t believe in what you say. Russian Troops were in Crimea very officially and legally due to the Treaty between Ukraine and Russia. Can you explain why Putin would have denied a fact that was legitimate and legal?

Here is the accurate dialogue:
A journalist: " Are those who stormed the Crimean parliament building and those who besiege Ukrainian military bases Russian troops?"
Putin: "Those are Crimean self-defense forces".
After a month Putin admitted those were Russian soldiers.
Do you honestly think I invent bedtime stories to scare unwary and too trustful Europeans and Americans?

[Gilrandir]

My dear friend, I never referred to eastern protesters as completely innocent. Go back and re-read. I objected to your portrayal of Maidan protesters as freedom fighters who, in the course of fight for freedom, may have made some collateral damage, while protesters in the east were fascists, murderers, anti-Semitic, baby-eating racist bigots who hunt Ukrainian speakers.

You never did, it is true. But it is neither boring nor tiresome for you to remind me about 4 (sometimes they turn into 5) nazis in the government and bullying MPs in Kyiv now and then, while I don't observe suchlike ardor in rubbing in the facts of kidnapping, holding hostage, torturing and murdering local deputies and journalists in Slovyansk. I get it: it is more terrible when a nazi threatens someone than worse crimes committed by (as you believe) non-nazis.

Also the reason why I didn't respond to your demand for a source is because there isn't one. It was a personal opinion based on multitude of reports and assessments.

But, as I've said, I won't correct your sensationalist statements any more.

So yours is a personal opinion which must be trusted because you have analysed and correctly interpreted the multitude of hearsay, mine is sensationalist statements.

[Sarmatian]

You never did, it is true. But it is neither boring nor tiresome for you to remind me about 4 (sometimes they turn into 5) nazis in the government and bullying MPs in Kyiv now and then, while I don't observe suchlike ardor in rubbing in the facts of kidnapping, holding hostage, torturing and murdering local deputies and journalists in Slovyansk. I get it: it is more terrible when a nazi threatens someone than worse crimes committed by (as you believe) non-nazis.

Because there is no need for us to argue about something we agree on. I presume we both agree that what eastern protesters are doing is illegal. On the other hand, I believe what Maidan protesters did was illegal while you don't. It is very simple from my point of view. Either both are legitimate concerns expressed by parts of Ukrainian population and must treated as such or both are illegal and must be treated as such.

From the get go, though, it was about in whose sphere will Ukraine end up, so it has really little to do with legality.

So yours is a personal opinion which must be trusted because you have analysed and correctly interpreted the multitude of hearsay, mine is sensationalist statements.

Feel free to argue I'm wrong, I don't mind. That's what this board is about. It is certainly not about us posting scientifically proven facts with no debate.

BUT, that is very different from you posting that there has been a "general hunt ordered on all who speak Ukrainian" which never happened or that Putin admitted there were Russian soldiers in Ukraine, which he never did. Those are sensationalist statements.

[Brenus]

See, “A journalist: " Are those who stormed the Crimean parliament building and those who besiege Ukrainian military bases Russian troops?"Putin: "Those are Crimean self-defense forces" is different from: “I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea”.

“Do you honestly think I invent bedtime stories to scare unwary and too trustful Europeans and Americans?” I don’t know, and it is not my concern. I do think you believed in these scary stories because you are leaving in a country in a brink of a civil war, or even an international war if things go wrong.

“But it is neither boring nor tiresome for you to remind me about 4 (sometimes they turn into 5) Nazis” Because that is an IMPORTANT political factor. Without them, I will look at the situation differently, and will see the Russian point of view differently. But, for the moment, I will do whatever is in my power to prevent French Soldiers to go or to act to preserve a country willingly and knowingly having Nazi in their executive (this includes the prosecutor in the Maiden killing).

[Husar]

Is a benign illegal confinement any less illegal?

Who said that? Of course it's not, it just makes you feel warmer around the heart and reminds me a little less of murderous fascist nazi thugs than some others here.

America did not seriously maltreat, starve, or torture Americans of Japanese descent who were interned during World War II -- but the act was still wrong and grossly unconstitutional.

Yes, it was. The things people do when they are afraid...

[Gilrandir]

BUT, that is very different from you posting that there has been a "general hunt ordered on all who speak Ukrainian" which never happened or that
Putin admitted there were Russian soldiers in Ukraine, which he never did. Those are sensationalist statements.

I wonder how you would react if you read that some guy from the Right Sector said that he should be notified when someone in Lviv was heard speaking Russian. Would you start lamentation for poor Russain-speakers hunted by the Nazis?
As for Putin, I heard him say it in an interview some days before the medal-giving. He said that behind the backs of Crimean self-defence there of course were Russian soldiers. The journalist asked then if there will be "a shower of awards" (he meant medals, I believe) and Putin replied that people will certainly be awarded, but the names of those will remain secret for a long while. I saw that interview about a week, maybe ten days ago.
Again you may deny it and I have no idea how to prove it, I don't know if all Putin's latest interviews were translated into English (or any other languages) or (if they were) how to search for it. Take it or leave it.

[Gilrandir]

See, “A journalist: " Are those who stormed the Crimean parliament building and those who besiege Ukrainian military bases Russian troops?"Putin: "Those are Crimean self-defense forces" is different from: “I saw Putin saying that there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea”.

Of course there are the soldiers according to the treaty, but I meant the soldiers used in capturing administrative buildings and besieging military bases. Putin denied it. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.
But see how curious it is: you don't believe that Putin denied Russian soldiers being instrumental in overrunning Crimea, Sarmatian doesn't believe that Putin later admitted it. Does it mean that you believe the second and he believes the first? Then you can argue on the ones that you don't believe.

“But it is neither boring nor tiresome for you to remind me about 4 (sometimes they turn into 5) Nazis” Because that is an IMPORTANT political factor. Without them, I will look at the situation differently, and will see the Russian point of view differently. But, for the moment, I will do whatever is in my power to prevent French Soldiers to go or to act to preserve a country willingly and knowingly having Nazi in their executive (this includes the prosecutor in the Maiden killing).

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-9244541.html
I wonder why no one raised hue and cry about it? Nazis in the civilized Europe's heart.
One more thing: about ten years ago (maybe fifteen) some Nazi (or ultra-nationalist) party succeeded at the elections (I think parliamentary) in Austria. No link again, but I guess it would be easy for you to check it. Has your country stopped any cooperation with Austria or Hungary? Have we noticed any Nazism pouring out of Austria since that time? Will we notice any Nazism flooding Europe from Hungary (see above)? I think you know answer to these questions: fear always exaggerates the anticipated events. I think the same with Ukraine - ten more years (according to Husar) and you will forget your ominous predictions.

[HoreTore]

I wonder why no one raised hue and cry about it?

.....except that they did.

Hungary's government has faced a barrage of condemnation since its inception.

Austria also faced diplomatic consequences.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Who said that? Of course it's not, it just makes you feel warmer around the heart and reminds me a little less of murderous fascist nazi thugs than some others here.



Yes, it was. The things people do when they are afraid...

Anything said by a hostage in captivity is under duress, per definition.

All we know right now is that they aren't being tortured and the supposed reason for their capture is fabricated.

Meanwhile - I don't see this election coming off for May 25th.

[Sarmatian]

I wonder how you would react if you read that some guy from the Right Sector said that he should be notified when someone in Lviv was heard speaking Russian. Would you start lamentation for poor Russain-speakers hunted by the Nazis?

Right Sector is a nazi organisation. The words "we should beware of Jewish spies" have totally different meaning depending if they come from Hitler or Roosevelt.

Since some time has past and a general hunt on Ukrainian speakers didn't happen, I'd say it's safe to assume that wasn't the intention.

As for Putin, I heard him say it in an interview some days before the medal-giving. He said that behind the backs of Crimean self-defence there of course were Russian soldiers. The journalist asked then if there will be "a shower of awards" (he meant medals, I believe) and Putin replied that people will certainly be awarded, but the names of those will remain secret for a long while. I saw that interview about a week, maybe ten days ago.
Again you may deny it and I have no idea how to prove it, I don't know if all Putin's latest interviews were translated into English (or any other languages) or (if they were) how to search for it. Take it or leave it.

I've read the same interview and I'd say that with "we got their back", he meant Russian troops parked on the border. It's quite logical. If those troops weren't there, the situation would be vastly different. It's a figure of speech used liberally in international politics. Backing someone up doesn't mean "we've got troops on the ground."

In other news, mayor of Kharkiv was shot bu unknown assailant(s) and is currently in hospital, fighting for his life.

[Husar]

All we know right now is that they aren't being tortured and the supposed reason for their capture is fabricated.

We don't know that, you assume it.

[Beskar]

I've read the same interview and I'd say that with "we got their back", he meant Russian troops parked on the border. It's quite logical. If those troops weren't there, the situation would be vastly different. It's a figure of speech used liberally in international politics. Backing someone up doesn't mean "we've got troops on the ground."

Sarmatian is correct, think of it in the terms of a boxing ring. You have those involved in the fight in the ring. Putin and the USA have the backs of the different factions but they are not currently involved in the fight. Might say some supportive words and such, but not involved directly.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Once again, to think the USA is anywhere near as involved as Russia is selective thinking at best. We just moved a couple infantry companies into Poland... hardly a great force on the border. We literally just opened up intel sharing with Kiev, while Yanukovich's entire network of jack booted thugs are operating as Russian proxies in the east.

Do they wear jack-boots any more? Really? I mean it is SUCH a cliché.

[Husar]

Yes, until someone leaks about the real amount of involvement or the files are opened after many decades.
But by then we can't blame the US anymore because it's too long gone.