Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Brenus]

“Yet you wriggled like an eel and juggled figures trying to deny quite a substantial support of Nazis in your country” When and where? YOU deny having Nazi in YOUR executive. For clarity, I even don’t challenge that the FN is not a Nazi Party, as in France, it is illegal to be Nazi. Some of their members are Nazi, some are Royalists and you can find all kind of extreme-right in it. So, try again to derive the focus. YOU support the Nazi in YOUR executive. I made clear that I don’t the MP in my Assembly. YOU made clear you are not so mad about yours.

“What do you consider the difference between mercenaries and volunteers?” Mercenaries fight for the ones who pay them, volunteers fight for what they believe.

“How do you classify them?” As a joke at best, a rumour or a false news/pure propaganda.

“With NATO reinforcing its detachments in Baltic states, Poland and Romania I would say no.” Did war is upon Russia? No. So useless deployment…

“And it added some reasons why the mistrust was and for a long time will be justified.” And you should read about the Place Tienanmen, it will be instructive. And I think Russia will survive the 6 months period, until next winter…

“What about being kicked out of G8?” Joke and posture.

“You again call me names” Where?

"nationalism blindness": Is it what you think is calling names…? It is a description of your attitude and comments.

“I just want you to see that democracy is not the answer to all the questions which you seem to believe.” Democracy is the only way to answer. Of course, you have to know what democracy is.

[Gilrandir]

“Yet you wriggled like an eel and juggled figures trying to deny quite a substantial support of Nazis in your country” When and where?

In the posts where you tried to explain their victory in 2014 and Le Pen's runner up spot in 2007 by low turnout and peculiarities of election system.

“
YOU deny having Nazi in YOUR executive. For clarity, I even don’t challenge that the FN is not a Nazi Party, as in France, it is illegal to be Nazi.

I don't deny Svoboda's presence in the executive. I doubt them being nazi as (you may be asonished but) in Ukraine it is illegal to be nazi as well.

“
Some of their members are Nazi, some are Royalists and you can find all kind of extreme-right in it.

How do you know about the ideological background of all Svoboda members? I'm sure there is a whole gamut of extreme and non-extreme right over there as well.

“
YOU support the Nazi in YOUR executive. I made clear that I don’t the MP in my Assembly. YOU made clear you are not so mad about yours.

Quote at least one post (or even sentence) of mine where I support Svoboda. On the contrary, I more than once said that I don't like them, I didn't vote for them in 2012 (and earlier) and (now an eye-opener for you) I didn't vote for Tyagnybok (nor for Yarosh to boot) in 2014. Now who is blind (or should I say forgetful)? Oops, I fogot you don't believe me. Then you can imagine whatever you please.
The only thing that is true in all your post is that I'm not mad (as you put it) about Svoboda in the executive. Handsome is as handsome does, or in this case nazi is as nazi does. So far they haven't done anything to expose their abomonable essence. When they do I will consider starting being mad. Otherwise it will be (let me quote you)

useless deployment…

“What do you consider the difference between mercenaries and volunteers?” Mercenaries fight for the ones who pay them, volunteers fight for what they believe.
“How do you classify them?” As a joke at best, a rumour or a false news/pure propaganda.

Many Ukrainians volunteered to go to the east to fight terrorists. It doesn't mean they are not paid. The same with Russians, Chechens and the like. As for jokes and rumors:
http://censor.net.ua/photo_news/2879...ijeratore_foto
Go on living in the imagined world you created for yourself.

“And it added some reasons why the mistrust was and for a long time will be justified.” And you should read about the Place Tienanmen, it will be instructive.

It may sound as a surprise to you, but I've heard about it.

“You again call me names” Where?
"nationalism blindness": Is it what you think is calling names…? It is a description of your attitude and comments.
“I just want you to see that democracy is not the answer to all the questions which you seem to believe.” Democracy is the only way to answer. Of course, you have to know what democracy is.

Your favorite tactics: you deny obvious things (calling me names) combined with arrogant comments meaning to show I don't know much of what is (and was) going on in the world and even if I could read about it somewhere I don't have wits enough to understand it (without your clairvoyant guidance).
As for democracy, I see your way of interpreting it:
Step 1. Hold democratic elections.
Step 2. Check whether there are any parties which you don't like.
Step 3. If there are some, disregard the results of the elections and the will of voters and exclude them from the government.
Why, you sound like the Ukrainian government (which you dislike so much) who want to ban Communists.
Conclusion: smells like nazi spirit.

[Brenus]

“In the posts where you tried to explain their victory in 2014 and Le Pen's runner up spot in 2007 by low turnout and peculiarities of election system.” You are right. I have to use simpler vocabulary. Right: A victory is when you won the majority (50 % + 1). Did the FN won 50 % + 1 majority: No. Did Le Pen (father) win the elections: No. Did his party got MP in the Parliament: No. Is there any majority of FN representative in actual French Parliament? No. So, what victory are you speaking about?

“I doubt them being nazi”; Astonishing indeed, when this party openly says it is, wearing Nazi Uniform in parades, and wanting to kill Jews and Russians…

“How do you know about the ideological background of all Svoboda members?” Err, when one of the leaders having a “think-tank” named after Nazi might be a clue, as having Nazi Symbolism and Nazi Uniforms in your parades.

“Handsome is as handsome does, or in this case nazi is as nazi does.” Good point. Let’s be aware of the danger when they will start to do what they preach for. Then, ooops, too late, sorry.

“Go on living in the imagined world you created for yourself.” And these pictures prove that the dead are (were in this case) mercenaries? I have to applaud your spirit of linking things totally irrelevant to each other. Pictures of coffins/body bags prove that the dead are mercenaries… Hmm, remind me the Post Vietnam period when all soldiers were seen as babies killers and mercenaries… 3 pictures of a warehouse, 1 lorry carrying coffins and crossing apparently the Ukrainian border, I am convinced: Hordes of mercenaries paid by someone in Russia are fighting against the nice and kind democratically elected popular Ukrainian Government that reluctantly uses bombers, attack-helicopters, APC (and probably tanks) and artillery in order to resolve a political crisis.

“I could read about it somewhere I don't have wits enough to understand it” Your interpretation of democracy is:
Step 1. Hold democratic elections.
Step 2. Check whether there are any parties which you don't like.
Step 3. If there are some, disregard the results of the elections and the will of voters and exclude them from the government.
Why, you sound like the Ukrainian government (which you dislike so much) who want to ban Communists.
Conclusion: smells like nazi spirit
I agree, it smell nazi. It is Nazi. You should change it.

Mine is:
Democracy is a political system of Government based on laws. Not perfect, but it works.
Parties that don’t follow the Laws and the Constitution or that are recognised Criminal Organisations are not legal. They don’t represent nor are/have Political Opinions but offence. Calling to murders is not a political opinion but an offence.
In democracy, Judiciary, Executive and Legislation Powers are separated and Independent (allegedly, I grant you that).
A government is nominated (not elected, you will notice) to manage the country following the result of elections won at a majority of 50% +1 of (actually) voters (or by coalition representing).
All parties that gain some representatives are represented in the Parliament (then we could have a debate about proportional vote or not).
Then few mechanisms and regulations to smooth the functioning…
That the idea.
No offence meant, or personal attack, I prefer my version.

[Gilrandir]

“In the posts where you tried to explain their victory in 2014 and Le Pen's runner up spot in 2007 by low turnout and peculiarities of election system.” You are right. I have to use simpler vocabulary. Right: A victory is when you won the majority (50 % + 1). Did the FN won 50 % + 1 majority: No. Did Le Pen (father) win the elections: No. Did his party got MP in the Parliament: No. Is there any majority of FN representative in actual French Parliament? No. So, what victory are you speaking about?

Victory in euroelections 2014. And victory it is when a party gets more votes than the others, 50% or no 50%. As for Le Pen, you can't carefully read what you try to cotradict two lines below: Le Pen's runner up spot in 2007.

“I doubt them being nazi”; Astonishing indeed, when this party openly says it is, wearing Nazi Uniform in parades, and wanting to kill Jews and Russians…
“How do you know about the ideological background of all Svoboda members?” Err, when one of the leaders having a “think-tank” named after Nazi might be a clue, as having Nazi Symbolism and Nazi Uniforms in your parades.

I don't follow Svoboda closely, but I believe (I may be mistaken) what you take as a nazi uniform is the one that was worn by UPA during WWII. I don't know what organization is named after a nazi. Do you mean Bandera?
As far as I know, in no documents of Nurnberg trial either UPA or Bandera are proclaimed nazis. Moreover, the Soviet representative at the trial brought forth nazi repressions against UPA as one of the charges.
I have already expressed my attitude to the issue: UPA and Bandera fought first with nazis against the Soviet army, then against both nazis and Soviets. Bandera spent most of the war in KZ-Lager, Sachsenhausen, IIRC.

“Handsome is as handsome does, or in this case nazi is as nazi does.” Good point. Let’s be aware of the danger when they will start to do what they preach for. Then, ooops, too late, sorry.

It was the attitude you advocated regarding having an army at peace time, remember?

“With NATO reinforcing its detachments in Baltic states, Poland and Romania I would say no.” Did war is upon Russia? No. So useless deployment…

“Go on living in the imagined world you created for yourself.” And these pictures prove that the dead are (were in this case) mercenaries? I have to applaud your spirit of linking things totally irrelevant to each other. Pictures of coffins/body bags prove that the dead are mercenaries… Hmm, remind me the Post Vietnam period when all soldiers were seen as babies killers and mercenaries… 3 pictures of a warehouse, 1 lorry carrying coffins and crossing apparently the Ukrainian border, I am convinced: Hordes of mercenaries paid by someone in Russia are fighting against the nice and kind democratically elected popular Ukrainian Government that reluctantly uses bombers, attack-helicopters, APC (and probably tanks) and artillery in order to resolve a political crisis.

They are foreign citizens who come to a different country with arms and participate in the war. Are you so naive that you believe this is done for purely altruistic reasons? A perfect world where money doesn't matter. Or are they soldiers you liken them to? And there are many more trucks like the one in the photo crossing for Russia every other day. I am surprised you admitted Russians in Donbas, though. This is some progress. Or are you still sure those are rioting populaces? And one more "mistake" from you (or perhaps from the sources you use): the planes used by Ukrainian military are fighters not bombers.

Mine is:
Parties that don’t follow the Laws and the Constitution or that are recognised Criminal Organisations are not legal.

I have to repeat over and over again: all parties elected to the Verkhovna Rada are legal and registerded. Period.

A government is nominated (not elected, you will notice) to manage the country following the result of elections won at a majority of 50% +1 of (actually) voters (or by coalition representing).

Then the Ukrainan democracy is what you ask for: the coalition of Udar, Batkivshchina and Svoboda was formed which nominated the government. It is logical that the latter included representatives of all three parties.

No offence meant, or personal attack, I prefer my version.

You see your version is implemented in current Ukrainian government. But you don't like it.

[Myth]

This thread has me as its progenitor but I lost track around 50 pages ago

[Brenus]

“Victory in euroelections 2014. And victory it is when a party gets more votes than the others, 50% or no 50%.” Nope. A victory is democracy is when your party comes to power. In the 50’s & 60's the Communist Party was the most numerous and powerful party in France but never won, because the rest was against them. Same for the FN. Even 30 % will still leave 70 % against. So the FN became the first party in the European elections, but is still not a winner. That is the rule of democracy, you see… 70 % trumps 30 %.

“Le Pen's runner up spot in 2007.” Sorry, I might become blind… Did Le Pen became French President and did his party won Parliamentary elections? Without me knowing it?

“I don't know what organization is named after a nazi.”: “One of the “Big Three” political parties behind the protests is the ultra-nationalist Svoboda, whose leader, Oleh Tyahnybok, has called for the liberation of his country from the “Muscovite-Jewish mafia.” After the 2010 conviction of the Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk for his supporting role in the death of nearly 30,000 people at the Sobibor camp, Tyahnybok rushed to Germany to declare him a hero who was “fighting for truth.” In the Ukrainian parliament, where Svoboda holds an unprecedented 37 seats, Tyahnybok’s deputy Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn is fond of quoting Joseph Goebbels – he has even founded a think tank originally called “the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center.” You’ve got your answer: Joseph Goebbels.

“It was the attitude you advocated regarding having an army at peace time, remember?” Err, when and where?

“Are you so naive that you believe this is done for purely altruistic reasons?” You might not believe it, but there are some who are ready to fight and die for a cause. And still, nothing proving these are mercenaries. Crossing a border to a safe heaven is a common practice in guerrilla war fair, and that is why, if a political solution is not found, this can go for a long time.

“I am surprised you admitted Russians in Donbas” Well, you really should read what I wrote indeed, instead to translate it.

“Then the Ukrainan democracy is what you ask for: the coalition of Udar, Batkivshchina and Svoboda was formed which nominated the government. It is logical that the latter included representatives of all three parties.” So the actual Ukrainian includes Nazi. I never deny this, that the Ukrainian Parties formed a coalition with Nazi. I am against it, but I can’t deny the reality of the Ukrainian political life.

“But you don't like it” Nope, as I said I don’t like Nazi in a government.

"the planes used by Ukrainian military are fighters not bombers." Funny enough, when a plane drops bombs it becomes a bomber. It was probably a multi-role plane, as many air forces have. And it make no changes for the one receiving the bomb(s) or for the ones authorizing the use of these weapons system.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

This thread has me as its progenitor but I lost track around 50 pages ago

DO catch back up, won't you. I've heard the OP is a bit of a hard-case and might post an exam at the end of summer term.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Putin's Russia has NATO on its borders at the far North and at the Baltic already. Unless he is an idiot, he has little to no fear whatsoever of a NATO invasion -- the sea change required for Europe to head East for lebensraum again is hard to fathom.

So what does it matter if the Western portions of Ukraine go NATO? He's acquired Crimea with its great port and he is working on establishing functional control of as much of the industrialized portions East of the Dneiper that he can without over-extending his resources (and turning the Sea of Azov back into a Russian lake). Once he has this stretch he has a more "natural" border and most of the profitable end of things.

And NATO will not invade to counter it.


EDIT: Oh, and the staff at Time magazine will have plenty of time to write up this year's person of the year. Fortunately for US readers, the SI swimsuit edition is released in February, so they won't have to wade through all of that heavy reading for very long.

[Brenus]

Don't forget Afghanistan!

“For you, a thinly veiled Anti-Americanism is enough to justify any stupid view, so why bother arguing about it?” Ah yeah, if you are not with us, you are against us. I’ve got it few years ago when we became the “cheese eaters -surrendering monkeys” !!! If you disagree with the USA it is just because you are Anti-Americans… Not because they cheated and lied… Yeah, you’ve got a point…

“Your posts are full of tin-foil hat conspiracy notions that are required for your patently false view of the west to be valid.” One example? Or even two, as they are full of… Back-up your claim please!

“Oh ya, we gave weapons to the Taliban alright, because Russia gave weapons to the Vietcong.” So two wrong makes it right? Right? But, but, the Russians didn't provide weapons to the Taliban, did they? That may change...

“The US simply doesn't have a master plan, and neither does the EU.” Yeah, only Putin has master-plan. We just equipped powerful armies for the fun and parades. And of course we bombed and invaded to spread democracy and to protect the populations. Hold on; is it what Putin just said…? Hmm, am I anti-Russians as well…

“The fact that you vehemently believe that two wrongs makes a right” You are the believer in this. I don’t believe, I see the constant actions of the US and EU in their spheres of interest and give to them the same value than the ones of Russia. I don’t demonised a side and speak angel of the other. Countries have interested and play the same game. I have no sympathy for Putin when he annexed Crimea and is able to sustain a guerrilla campaign in Ukraine than I have for the US and EU doing the same in Former Yugoslavia (I know, it is looooong time ago) or in Africa, Asia or South America.
I even go further: I understand the struggle. I think USA has the right to have a US policy, but I give Russia the same

[Brenus]

Yeah, you can't... Wild accusations unfounded...

[Husar]

You mean just like we had ample evidence of Iraqi WMDs?
I'm not sure I can believe western governments when it comes to "ample evidence"...
And the head of the CIA visited Ukraine in the middle of the crisis on a "routine visit"...do you actually believe that?
There are even western corporations in the country spreading propaganda that rivals the one on the russian side, but it's hardly ever reported here. More likely it's just taken as the truth and reported without citing a source.

Our press is always good for accusing other countries' presses for being propaganda machines, but they hardly talk about being ones themselves. I wonder why. These days they don't even have the money to correct the countless grammar mistakes, much less to actually fact-check their stories.

[Husar]

Yes, they all go behind separatist lines, it only makes sense that they can't see the NATO shills operating in the West from there...

[ICantSpellDawg]

There's a specific VICE series that you can access for free on YouTube called "Russian Roulette." where a series of Reporters (including a few who speak Ukrainian and Russian) embed with both sides, before during and after combat. The people tell their own stories simply because the camera is there, and you can make up your own mind. For more formal news, I again recommend PBS--it is the only news agency in the USA that is legally obligated to tell the truth (seriously, FOX news won a law-suit years back where their whole defense was that they should be allowed to fudge the truth for narrative or "entertainment" value) and they too have reported from both sides, unflinchingly documenting the flaws on both sides. Educate yourselves. This thread has more speculation than the 2008 Housing market.

Russian Roulette (the vice series) is one of my favorite things in the world.
'
Remember this nugget from the early days? When we realized that it wasn't going to end well for the Yanukovych government?
People regularly attacking police stations/mayor's offices with fire and stripping all officers naked doesn't bode well for governments anywhere.



This video takes place after the car chase

[Husar]

And the police in the USA are legally obligated not to use police brutality. Why is the US government always the most corrupt and evil institution in internal debates and a saint in foreign policy debates?

It's simply as Brenus says, Russia has an interest in the region and sees it as its sphere of influence, just like the US saw all of South America as its sphere of influence a few decades ago and ran around changing governments there. Russia may be a bit backwards in terms of what western progressives deem the de-facto standard of foreign policy behavior, but I also think it should be a standard for foreign governments not to spy on me, yet the USA and UK do not give a poop. So why would I care when Russia doesn't give a poop what we think about their meddling in Ukrainian lives?

[ICantSpellDawg]

They've just installed a gigantic Russian Meat Grinder in Eastern Ukraine. I'm not sure that anyone has a problem with that in theory.
This is the closest we've gotten to them since Korea.

No matter how you cut it, after the annexation of Crimea, Russian-centric Ukrainians are in a terminal decline and will never win an election in the country again. Plus the economy in the East is in ruins. It's only a matter of time before they move to Russia, die in an anti-insurgency campaign, or stfu.

Fascists

[Husar]

Try answering me without a "But, the USA!" Just once. Try it.

There are fundamental differences between what a Democratically empowered government does in its over-reach and what a dictator does with his totalitarian resources. Its an absurd comparison that fails on its face, unless you are of the opinion that mistakes made by an aggressive democracy are just as bad as intentional atrocities committed by a knowing tyrant

What is the difference for the people on the receiving end?

[Pannonian]

That's dodging the question. The only thing the international community can judge on is intent, and legitimacy. It is high-minded stuff that obviously doesn't mix with the human toll of war. But who here is advocating war? Not the pro-westerners. Western intervention in Ukraine stops Russian aggression that has been underway for quite some time now. Western apathy will breed more war in Ukraine, not less war. Remember, my own opinion is that we should let them deal with Russia without our help. Ukraine is far from anything America has any right to care about, and Russia is Europe's problem--not ours. But, Objectively, I have to admit that Russia is the aggressor and that western intervention in terms of supplies and funding could make the situation better and not worse. Ukraine is not Syria, or Afghanistan, or Iraq. The minority in the east won't last long without Russian support once the new president's assault begins, and the majority of Ukrainians are ready to exact the kind of vengeance on the East that I honestly have trouble condoning. Only Russian support can prolong this, and only Russian support began this.

Unless, of course, you believe the West (or, lmao, the USA's special forces) overthrew Yanukovich--in which case anything is on the table because you believe in lies.

I believe that some idiot politicians, some from the US, some from the EU, played neocon games in Ukraine, thinking that they can push for the overthrow of the "other side" and put "their side" in power without repercussions. Their methods? Soft power, enhanced to their taste with directed political guff. Similar to the Guardian calling on the Americans to not re-elect Bush in 2004. In that case it was an idiot newspaper playing that game with no budget. In this case it was some idiot politicians playing that game with government money. In both cases everyone would have been better off if they'd kept their noses out of it.

[Brenus]

“There is no evidence that western mercenaries and special forces ousted Yanukovich,” Where did you find this in my interventions? I am the one advocating the fact that everybody reacted and was surprised (CIA included) by the Ukrainian development. I am the one disputing the theory of complot (including Putin’s one). You just make things up, as you can’t even give a shred of evidence of your accusation.

“there is ample evidence that Russian mercenaries and Russian special forces are inciting guerilla war in Ukraine.” So give them, give the name of the Company who pay them, the salaries etc. I can do this for Iraq. And by the way, I don’t dispute the presence of Russian Special Forces in Ukraine. You are the one disputing Western Involvement in the process.

“your entire argument is that the West has some secret fucking global agenda to screw Russia now and forever, instead of the totally reasonable reality that NATO is a defensive operation that gets sent to places where democratic sentiment sends them.” My entire argument is all countries have no secret agenda but clear goal to control their supply and influence/markets. And I am the one you accused to be a believer? NATO is a tool for democracy? Err, in the last NATO operations, can you give me 1 (or 2) example where democracy blossom? And true democracy, not based on Sharia law, if possible, with Citizens rights improved and no car-bombing weekly campaign? Please?

As the agenda to “screw” Russia as you wrote there is nothing secret about it, in words as in actions.

“Hell you don't even quote right” Funny this, I copy and paste.

“your lunatic non-sense.” You should read your own posts to have a clear view of what is a lunatic non-sense, you will learn a lot.
I like your style in writing…

“I honestly have trouble condoning.” In that I believe.

“Western intervention in Ukraine stops Russian aggression that has been underway for quite some time now.” This is because you believe in tin-foil hat conspiracy of Putin’s plot to invade Ukraine. Russia got what she could save (from Russian’s point of view), had never the intention to invade Ukraine (with what?) and succeeded to neutralize it. So, but I can make mistake, Russia has only to wait for negotiation to start, business to resume and if necessary, provide weapons to separatists to keep the things as they are.

[Husar]

Here's a source:

http://www.hangthebankers.com/expose...ainian-crisis/

[Fragony]

Did a bit of reading to understand things better, if I have to take everything that is said in 'Blackbook of Communism' for granted, which I kinda don't before I read some more as I suspect some bias, it at least paints a pretty good picture of facts that are indisputed and how this country is in trouble right now.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Here's a source:

http://www.hangthebankers.com/expose...ainian-crisis/

Oh I seeeee.

Those were NATO snipers on that cold day in February - because that was the turning point, then the ex-President abdicated his job and fled to Russia.

Implicit behind the analysis you posted is the suggestion that Russia has been even more involved than is currently apparent, or that NATO has been doing "wet work" instead.

[Gilrandir]

“Victory in euroelections 2014. And victory it is when a party gets more votes than the others, 50% or no 50%.” Nope. A victory is democracy is when your party comes to power. In the 50’s & 60's the Communist Party was the most numerous and powerful party in France but never won, because the rest was against them. Same for the FN. Even 30 % will still leave 70 % against. So the FN became the first party in the European elections, but is still not a winner. That is the rule of democracy, you see… 70 % trumps 30 %.

The electoral system which functions in Ukraine is proportional. You may get as few votes as you like (say, 20%) but if you get more than your rivals (say, 19%, 16% and 12%) you win the elections. It is a strange thing for me to count not the votes you get but the votes you didn't. Perhaps these are peculiarities of the French electoral system.

“Le Pen's runner up spot in 2007.” Sorry, I might become blind… Did Le Pen became French President and did his party won Parliamentary elections? Without me knowing it?

OK, my final message regarding Le Pen (now I believe he is a fascist - to give me so much trouble is inhuman). Le Pen DIDN'T WIN ANYTHING BUT HE WAS THE SECOND BEST CANDIDATE FOr PRESIDENCY IN 2007. Conclusion: NAZISM HAD A FAIR SUPPORT IN FRANCE IN 2007 and HAS NOW (see the results of Euroelections). Period.

“I don't know what organization is named after a nazi.”: “One of the “Big Three” political parties behind the protests is the ultra-nationalist Svoboda, whose leader, Oleh Tyahnybok, has called for the liberation of his country from the “Muscovite-Jewish mafia.” After the 2010 conviction of the Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk for his supporting role in the death of nearly 30,000 people at the Sobibor camp, Tyahnybok rushed to Germany to declare him a hero who was “fighting for truth.” In the Ukrainian parliament, where Svoboda holds an unprecedented 37 seats, Tyahnybok’s deputy Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn is fond of quoting Joseph Goebbels – he has even founded a think tank originally called “the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center.” You’ve got your answer: Joseph Goebbels.

No, I have YOUR answer. Since you don't trust me I may as well doubt (especially after your Tyagnybok photo and the story you accompanied it with) credibility of the quotation you gave. So, the source, please.

“It was the attitude you advocated regarding having an army at peace time, remember?” Err, when and where?

Immediately under my "remember?" I'm gonna save you trouble finding it and will repeat your post again, so read your lips:

“With NATO reinforcing its detachments in Baltic states, Poland and Romania I would say no.” Did war is upon Russia? No. So useless deployment…

And still, nothing proving these are mercenaries.

I have to repeat my question: what proof would make you believe in the presence of mercenaries?

Crossing a border to a safe heaven is a common practice in guerrilla war fair, and that is why, if a political solution is not found, this can go for a long time.

Terrorists always cross the border FROM Russia INTO Ukraine, not vice versa (unless dead in the caskets). Since when a war zone has become a safer place then Russian Rostov region?

“Then the Ukrainan democracy is what you ask for: the coalition of Udar, Batkivshchina and Svoboda was formed which nominated the government. It is logical that the latter included representatives of all three parties.” So the actual Ukrainian includes Nazi. I never deny this, that the Ukrainian Parties formed a coalition with Nazi. I am against it, but I can’t deny the reality of the Ukrainian political life.

It is not only the reality it is THE LAW OF DEMOCRACY - to let the winners divide the power among themselves. If you don't like it, well, follow Pannonian's advice: wait for the next elections.

but your entire argument is that the West has some secret fucking global agenda to screw Russia now and forever

According to Brenus, everybody has agenda: Nato, US, Europe, even me (you too, I suspect), but not Putin - he is acting on a hunch thus is entitled to do whatever he likes.

The minority in the east won't last long without Russian support once the new president's assault begins, and the majority of Ukrainians are ready to exact the kind of vengeance on the East

The latter is wrong. Ukrainians all over the country (even and especially in the West) show their readiness to harbor refugees from the East (which they do) and sympathize with those who are left in the war zone. It is the terrorists (most of whom are aliens, as I have remarked many times) that unlikely to expect any mercy.

And by the way, I don’t dispute the presence of Russian Special Forces in Ukraine.

Is it much better than mercenaries?

Russia got what she could save (from Russian’s point of view), had never the intention to invade Ukraine (with what?) and succeeded to neutralize it.

At the beginning of spring I saw an interview of Illarionov, up to 2008 an advisor of Putin. He claimed that Russia as early as 2004 had a plan of invading Ukraine, biting away Crimea and the South East . They started to draw it after the Orange revolution when Putin realized that he Ukraine may get out of hand.

[Husar]

Oh I seeeee.

Those were NATO snipers on that cold day in February - because that was the turning point, then the ex-President abdicated his job and fled to Russia.

Implicit behind the analysis you posted is the suggestion that Russia has been even more involved than is currently apparent, or that NATO has been doing "wet work" instead.

That's not what I read in the article or heard in the interviews in the videos.

What I read and saw is that US involvement is far greater than none and that US NGOs in the area are working together with the local groups that supported the Maidan movement, possibly also in more violent ways.

[Brenus]

“The only evidence you can point to comes in the form of hot gas out your backside.” : Ohhh, you believe that everyone has the some process of thinking than you… If this process is not alien to you of course…
Anyway, you are out of the equation…

“OK, my final message regarding Le Pen (now I believe he is a fascist - to give me so much trouble is inhuman). Le Pen DIDN'T WIN ANYTHING BUT HE WAS THE SECOND BEST CANDIDATE FOr PRESIDENCY IN 2007. Conclusion: NAZISM HAD A FAIR SUPPORT IN FRANCE IN 2007 and HAS NOW (see the results of Euroelections). Period.” See, I agree: The failure of the successive Governments to heard the vox populis (not sure of my Latin) opened the door to the Extreme-right. Not really the place to develop, but the lack of backbones and the absolute disdain from the leading political Class for the result of vote (i.e. European Treaty signed after a Referendum where the French had said no) just push the populations to either abstention (my case until recently) either vote for a “nuisance” party.

“So, the source, please.” No prob: http://www.dailykos.com/

“With NATO reinforcing its detachments in Baltic states, Poland and Romania I would say no.” Did war is upon Russia? No. So useless deployment…” This is nothing about having an army in peace time, this is about futile gesticulation and useless deployment: Do you know how many planes France sent there: the big amount of 2. And they belong to the Escadrille Normandie-Niemen, which received the Order of the Red Banner and the Order of Alexander Nevky for their participation along the Red Army to the fight again Nazism. The stupidity and the incompetence of the French Government at his peak!!!

“I have to repeat my question: what proof would make you believe in the presence of mercenaries?” I gave the answer to our flatulent friend: Name of hiring companies, premises, you know, business cards, if I want to join (figures of speech). When I left the army, I was ask to go for mercenaries, there are coded advertising in specialised newspapers (as mercenaries are illegal in France), so this kind of things. Then of course, a bench of prisoners waiting for a fair court hearing would be nice as well…

“Terrorists always cross the border FROM Russia INTO Ukraine, not vice versa (unless dead in the caskets). Since when a war zone has become a safer place then Russian Rostov region? “ You really think it is a one-way ticket? All fighters, terrorists or not, need a safe place to rest, train, re-arm. The Algerians had Tunisia, the Viet-minh had China (I speak of the French anti-guerrilla campaign). So, whoever are the ones (terrorist, freedom -fighters, separatists etc.) the Ukrainian Army will have to fight, if it is the choice made, will have to face a elusive enemy, who will choose when and where to hit, then retreat in Russia proper.

“According to Brenus, everybody has agenda: Nato, US, Europe, even me (you too, I suspect), but not Putin - he is acting on a hunch thus is entitled to do whatever he likes.” You are right, I really have to make effort for you to understand. Putin has an agenda: Protect Russia. As others leaders, he is not nice. As others leaders, he use force, special operations. And yes, I have goals (or agenda). Don’t you? You don’t make plan for your life, you know, holidays, trip to visit family, pension… I do. Sorry if I am the only one.

“2008” Really? What an opportunist, telling the West what they want to heard…

[Gilrandir]

“So, the source, please.” No prob: http://www.dailykos.com/

Followed the link, couldn't find the article.

“I have to repeat my question: what proof would make you believe in the presence of mercenaries?” I gave the answer to our flatulent friend: Name of hiring companies, premises, you know, business cards, if I want to join (figures of speech). When I left the army, I was ask to go for mercenaries, there are coded advertising in specialised newspapers (as mercenaries are illegal in France), so this kind of things. Then of course, a bench of prisoners waiting for a fair court hearing would be nice as well…

Mercenaries are illegal elsewhere, but you want me to give to you some informationn you admit to be secret and encoded? Russia is sure to take care it stays secert. What I may offer is a kind of investigation held by a journalist who went to an army enlistment center in Russia saying that he wants to participate in the war in Donbas. They told him (off the record, of course) that this was not a place to come for it but gave him an address where he should apply and will be given all the information (including the payment conditions). He called and agreed on a meeting but didn't dare to come. To me it is evident that hiring mercenaries is performed and Russian authorities are fully aware and sympathetic (to put it mildly) to that. I don't doubt they (or Yanukovych, not unlikely) finance it.

“According to Brenus, everybody has agenda: Nato, US, Europe, even me (you too, I suspect), but not Putin - he is acting on a hunch thus is entitled to do whatever he likes.” You are right, I really have to make effort for you to understand. Putin has an agenda: Protect Russia. As others leaders, he is not nice. As others leaders, he use force, special operations.

His goal is to make Russia into super power again and restore the USSR in its former borders. As he put it, Russia is wherever Russian is spoken and understood.

And yes, I have goals (or agenda). Don’t you? You don’t make plan for your life, you know, holidays, trip to visit family, pension… I do. Sorry if I am the only one.

You had explained my agenda as a secret purpose I pursue in communication at this forum. Yet it doesn't go any further than informing people outside Ukraine of events here from an insider. Among the latest news: Strelok deposed Ponomarev from his position of the "popular mayor of Slovyansk" for his "unseemly activity".

[Brenus]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...ws-non-whites: I am not good at this...

Looks like it works...

"You had explained my agenda as a secret purpose I pursue in communication at this forum." Never. I said you had an agenda, a pro-Ukrainian Government one. Never said it was secret, and I even said I understand it. I said it biased (and still) your judgment in term of politic to follow. Not I think you have any power, in thinking in term of debating the situation. No secret purpose, an honest biased opinion, pro-Ukrainian, anti-Putin one.

"you admit to be secret and encoded?" Not in that sense of secret. You buy a periodic selling weapons, or militaria, when you find advert for "security Agents needed in whatever country" you understand what they are recruiting. Blackwater was a mercenaries Agency employed in Iraq.
And apparently in Ukraine:
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/0...es-in-ukraine/

[Brenus]

“Oh THAT'S your evidence? Blackwater?” Err, evidence of what? I never claim US mercenaries in Ukraine. I gave an example of Mercenaries Company … I am the one who want evidence, if you read what I wrote.

“Blackwater, in many ways, was under more restrictions than regular Soldiers.” That is still make them mercenaries… Dear, dear, you are the one twisting semantics, you twisting reality as well.

“that is an ignorant comparison.” That you acknowledge just there “they were there (in Iraq) as part of something that was most certainly a recognized and formal military effort”. So not being a part of Regular soldiers but part of the Military effort, that what is required in being mercenaries, no?

“And that article is crap in terms of supporting your argument” I made NO argument: again, you answer to a claim you imagine I did. Start to become a pattern.

“You believe that there is still a cold war going on, and that The West should frame all of its decisions in Eastern Europe on the idea that Russia is a special nation whom the rules do not apply to” Misunderstandings here: It is not what I think that matters, but what Russia thinks and see. And what I try (apparently in vain) is to show that what Russia see the installation of Missiles bases in Poland, Czech Republic and other military bases all around her territory as a threat. You might consider it is spreading democracy, they might consider it as a political move to surround them with soldiers coming from an aggressive military Alliance that didn’t stop to start illegal wars…
When you see or at least try to grasp their point of view, well, it helps in understanding who does what and why.
It doesn’t make it right; it doesn’t make it legal or even needed. But these are facts that can’t be ignored.
And claiming to be the Right ones in a struggle between Good and Evil doesn’t help in the understanding of the global strategy.

I will not comment on the rant of Good USA and Bad and Weak Europe, but following your “explanation”, how Europe did benefit of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq (for the last one, can I remind you that all French Companies were banned to any contracts with Iraqis Companies because France as sovereign nation didn’t follow order to go to battle on lies, deceptions and more lies from the US and UK administrations)? I am very curious of your answer(s) and looking forward for it (them).

“Not us, because Europe will soon be economically irrelevant for us” Hmm, probably why USA and Europe are negotiating a Transatlantic Treaty nowadays… Now, you convince me of the pertinence of all your fine and accurate analyses.

“Oh, the USA seems to prefer the Kiev government, so the Russians must be totally justified in breaking every international law ever in order to exert their will against Ukriane... please.. give me a break” Well, you find perfectly acceptable to break international laws when Governments were hostile to US or even only looking hostile… Of course, silly me, it is in the PAST, it doesn’t count…
Yeah, you should take a break…

[Gilrandir]

"you admit to be secret and encoded?" Not in that sense of secret. You buy a periodic selling weapons, or militaria, when you find advert for "security Agents needed in whatever country" you understand what they are recruiting.

Apparently I can't go to Russia, buy a magazine there and scan it for the ads you mentioned. So I base my judgement on logics and (partly) on Putin's words:
Are there any foreigners fighting in Donbas? Yes.
Are they regular Russian army? Putin: No.
Conclusion: in the world where money walks this spells mercenaries.

I said you had an agenda, a pro-Ukrainian Government one. Never said it was secret, and I even said I understand it. I said it biased (and still) your judgment in term of politic to follow. Not I think you have any power, in thinking in term of debating the situation. No secret purpose, an honest biased opinion, pro-Ukrainian, anti-Putin one.

I calit not agenda but patriotism.

[Brenus]

"Conclusion: in the world where money walks this spells mercenaries." Conclusion based on preconceptions. We have French Muslim fighting against Assad and they don't do it for money but by ideology...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Mercenaries and Foreign volunteers have been part of most conflicts -- usually without any policy efforts on the part of the parent governments of the volunteers. For every Condor Legion effort, there is a Lincoln Brigade AND an Eagle Squadron. For every Lawrence there is a Lafayette or an Elphinstone.

You need more than simple participation by persons of X entity to make a clear case of policy enactment.