Of Modding, Plagiarism and Nazi Artists

[Gilrandir]

Being about two decades younger than the notorious Axalon vs Tyberius feud I have no intention to further it by taking sides. For once, I don't know the true facts (I think no one does nor ever will) to judge and all the evidence I possess is hearsay. On the contrary, by this post I will try pour some oil on troubled waters (I hope not add oil into the fire). I see no sense in flinging at each other charges of plagiarism and trying to dodge them in matters of modding.
Modding is essentially plagiarism. Modders take a finished and complete product, change it to fit their shifting purposes and designs and present the result as their own creation. To illustrate my point I would like to draw upon Axalon's "Art Metaphor"© which he introduced in his "Hitler as a post-impressionist" post©. (I put here copyright slugs to avoid possible charges of being a plagiarist, thankless fosterling, outlaw, thief of love, usurper of glory, captain foolhardy, slayer of kin and betrayer of kin unrepentant).
Imagine that I bought the original of La Gioconda. I bring it home, take a brush and paints and set to work. I change the lady's color of the hair, add a scorpion tattoo on her wrist, put an ice cream cone into her hand and paint Eiffel tower in the background. Then I call the picture La Gilranconda or La Gioconda - The Gilrandirmod or just La Gioconda 2.0 and claim that I'm the author of this picture. The same with mods. You cannot claim to be the author of what was started by others.

[caravel]

You're clearly a filthy Tyberius-Supporter©

And:

(no idea about the copyright and licence on this one, if I get sued or issued with a summons I'll let you know about it, or if I disappear you'll know why... I have a friend in the corrupt pro Tyberius, anti "modders' rights".org management who is a corrupt lawyer, so not overly worrried)

[Cyprian2]

I, for one, have learned to shut up and enjoy the great mods that are available to us.

[Beskar]

In the respect of the OP, you are the author of La Gioconda 2.0 if you do those changes, assuming you adequately credited the original work for their work.

As such, if some one then takes your picture and adds a UFO in it, they are assumed to credit you for your work (at least) as well as being the author of the new work.

Rather like how an academic journal is full of references and comments put forward by different papers and authors. Many of the things you write you either thought or passively came across, however, you are required to do abit of digging to give credit to people who said things before you and in the process you become more informed on those points due to reading their work, and then their sources. As such, the credit is ever expanding.

Simply taking your La Gioconda 2.0 then saying I did the work is clear plagiarism, as it is clear I never added that tower or scorpion tattoo to the work.

I don't even know what the original argument was about, so all I say is simply take what I said, put the information together and there is your answer. If some one uses someone elses work without crediting them, then it is plagiarism.

Then there is the whole issue of 'permission', but that is a different kettle of fish. As if you credit the original, it isn't plagarism, but doing it without their permission, especially when they requested you not to do, makes you a 'scumbag' in the scheme of gentlemans/ladies code of conduct.

[Zarakas]

In the respect of the OP, you are the author of La Gioconda 2.0 if you do those changes, assuming you adequately credited the original work for their work.

As such, if some one then takes your picture and adds a UFO in it, they are assumed to credit you for your work (at least) as well as being the author of the new work.

Rather like how an academic journal is full of references and comments put forward by different papers and authors. Many of the things you write you either thought or passively came across, however, you are required to do abit of digging to give credit to people who said things before you and in the process you become more informed on those points due to reading their work, and then their sources. As such, the credit is ever expanding.

Simply taking your La Gioconda 2.0 then saying I did the work is clear plagiarism, as it is clear I never added that tower or scorpion tattoo to the work.

I don't even know what the original argument was about, so all I say is simply take what I said, put the information together and there is your answer. If some one uses someone elses work without crediting them, then it is plagiarism.

Then there is the whole issue of 'permission', but that is a different kettle of fish. As if you credit the original, it isn't plagarism, but doing it without their permission, especially when they requested you not to do, makes you a 'scumbag' in the scheme of gentlemans/ladies code of conduct.

Well said Tiaexz.

Code of conduct, ethics, integrity etc.

[Beskar]

Doing some reading on the matter (I was a little blind on the issue, and simply said what the 'common practise' is) it seems that Tyberius was caught foul of using some of Axalon's work back in 2008 then he released an update in 2009 correcting the offending images. It definitely seems like a very old issue now (5 years ago) and it seems Tyberius admitted he was at fault and corrected his work.

So on that particular incidence, Tyberius was in the wrong and since corrected it. Axalon is right in that Tyberius should have at least credited the work in question and asked for permission in its usage when going public with it.

Any debate seems rather dead and buried on that matter, which I am guessing which is why caravel has the .gif of 'flogging a dead horse'. Which makes him right on the matter!

On a more general note with permissions, from experience, 9/10 modders will allow you to use their work in your mod (with due credit), no problems. The only incidences where this doesn't occur are usually large scale mods or those which took a lot of work. Sometimes these can be added/developed as modules for other mods.

[Axalon]

First of all... I did not bring this up, nor did I ask for it somehow.... Anyways, I don't want to antagonize you Tiaexz, but please get the details straight, alright?

...using some of Axalon's work back in 2008 then he released an update in 2009 correcting the offending images.

In 2008 he promised publicly that he would correct it all in a later re-release that would be free of all my material (this for reasons already known) and it would be replaced by his own, that is what he said... See his own post. Now, this (by Tyberius) claimed "corrected" later version was released in Jan/Feb 2009 (I don't remember the exact date). I checked the files a few days later just to make sure it really was all over. What I found was that he had effectively lied in his 2008 statement as it still had visible traces of my work and I could identify it with little effort within "his" work. As usual there was zero credits for any of it. And this time I had explicitly prohibited him from using my material in any way what so ever, I still have his reply to that mail, so he knew alright. The result being that I had the this later "re-release" removed and deleted by AtomicGamer staff (this in jan 2010, due to my inexperience on all this) as it was obvious that he had just BS'ed everyone in his 2008-promises and statements (public and private, and I mentioned that over here). It was no mistake this time around, that would be an impossibility. That's the killer part in all this, and you missed it completely here (and you are not the first to make that fundamental mistake, let's hope you will be the last).

Besides, if your history-writing would have actually been correct then the Tyberius re-releases of 2.3 and 3.0 would have still been available today - they are not. Furthermore it would mean that I have made everything up that happened after Jan/Feb 2009, as your history-writing blatantly fails to recognize all events from that point onward. Of course this includes the permanent deletion of the files, among other things.... Or do you perhaps know of any server that still publicly distribute the Tyberius 2.3 and 3.0-files? If so, it sure would set all things in a different light, and by all means show me this place then and I'll speedily contact the responsible management there and have it removed ASAP.

...it seems Tyberius admitted he was at fault and corrected his work.

Yes he did that, up to a degree anyways... So that first part is true... The last part is not... Again, he publicly (and privately) declared and promised that he would do so in 2008 (see post) - but as I was saying above, he never did (honestly anyways) as it would then be plain impossible for me to find the stuff I did find within supposedly "his" work. Fat difference. After all, the files was removed because of that reality and there has never been any new public releases after that, to this day.

Anything else? You want to know on this? ...?...

- A

[Gilrandir]

In the respect of the OP, you are the author of La Gioconda 2.0 if you do those changes, assuming you adequately credited the original work for their work.

As such, if some one then takes your picture and adds a UFO in it, they are assumed to credit you for your work (at least) as well as being the author of the new work.

Rather like how an academic journal is full of references and comments put forward by different papers and authors. Many of the things you write you either thought or passively came across, however, you are required to do abit of digging to give credit to people who said things before you and in the process you become more informed on those points due to reading their work, and then their sources. As such, the credit is ever expanding.

Simply taking your La Gioconda 2.0 then saying I did the work is clear plagiarism, as it is clear I never added that tower or scorpion tattoo to the work.

I don't even know what the original argument was about, so all I say is simply take what I said, put the information together and there is your answer. If some one uses someone elses work without crediting them, then it is plagiarism.

Then there is the whole issue of 'permission', but that is a different kettle of fish. As if you credit the original, it isn't plagarism, but doing it without their permission, especially when they requested you not to do, makes you a 'scumbag' in the scheme of gentlemans/ladies code of conduct.

I don't know for sure but I think I'm right in believing that NO MODDER has ever asked for permisssion from Creative Assembly or whoever that was who designed TW series to maim and twist what they created. And the post was not about legal consequences and considerations. It was about the mods per se - no original thinking, no creative initiative, only second hand consumption. Crediting only underscores that ultimately it wasn't you who brought this product into being.
That is why I see no point in raising hue and cry over the alleged theft. Why, it is the same as Gollum (not the (ex)resident of this forum but the one in The hobbit) shouting "Baggins thief" chose to forget that the Ring was not his own and obtained after a crime.

[Stazi]

That is way I see no point in raising hue and cry over the alleged theft. Why, it is the same as Gollum (not the (ex)resident of this forum but the one in The hobbit) shouting "Baggins thief" chose to forget that the Ring was not his own and obtained after a crime.

THIS ^

Mods are possible only because CA or SEGA just doesn't say anything. Each mod is based on a game and the game creator can force to shut down and delete a mod whenever he wants. Each mod is generally a crime that is allowed by game creator because it helps to spread the fame of an original game and brings more money.

[caravel]

In this post from 2008, credit is clearly given for some content - I would say that throws out the argument for any claims of outright theft/plagiarism: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...rsion-Released!

It needs to be made clear that this was not a simple case of someone ripping off someone elses stuff from behind their back...

Collaboration in both directions: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post1994689

Permission to use the images was initially given: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2078983

It has been clear to me all along that:

1) While it was clearly wrong for Tyberius to not to give proper credit (though once again I point to the first first link), the offending images were removed and an apology issued.

2) Permission was given (third link), credit was given, perhaps sloppily in the linked thread, the whole issue here appears to be that there was no text file with proper credits actually included with the distribution files.

3) The claim that the offending content was still present, albeit modified, in the later corrected release is just one person's word against another's.

4) A dispute between two people over a personal issue, should never be used as justification for shitting up two messageboards with negativity and a sour grapes attitude for nearly 6 years.

5) The feud is one sided, hence beating a dead horse, because Tyberius is long gone - so it's normal members who know nothing of this dispute (and quite rightly don't care about it) who are having to suffer almost every thread invaded with slanderous venom filled diatribes, interspersed with the usual gratuitous promotion of his own modding project.

6) He quite openly vilifies other members, such as gollum, myself, the "org management" or anyone else who disagrees with his point of view on this matter. Anyone who plays the Tyberius mod, or even mentions it, seems to become a target or is labeled as a "supporter". This is the main issue.

[Nikodil]

Just to clear up some confusions. I don't know about SEGA, but the Activision license from the original MTW is pretty clear:

THE PROGRAM UTILITIES: The Program contains certain design, programming and processing utilities, tools, assets and other resources (“the Program Utilities”) for use with the Program that allow you to create customized new game levels and other related game materials for personal use in connection with the Program (“New Game Materials”). The use of the Program Utilities is subject to the following additional license restrictions:

* You agree that, as a condition to your using the Program Utilities, you will not use or allow third parties to use the Program Utilities and the New Game Materials created by you for any commercial purposes, including but not limited to selling, renting, leasing, licensing, distributing, or otherwise transferring the ownership of such New Game Materials, whether on a stand alone basis or packaged in combination with the New Game Materials created by others, through any and all distribution channels, including, without limitation, retail sales and on-line electronic distribution. You agree not to solicit, initiate or encourage any proposal or offer from any person or entity to create any New Game Materials for commercial distribution. You agree to promptly inform Activision in writing of any instances of your receipt of any such proposal or offer.

* If you decide to make available the use of New Game Materials create by you to other games, you agree to do so without charge.

* New Game Materials shall not contain modifications to any COM, EXE or DLL files or to any other executable Product files.

* New Game Materials may be created only if such New Game Materials can be used exclusively in combination with the retail version of the Program. New Game Materials may not be designed to be used as a stand-alone product.

* New Game Materials must not contain any illegal, obscene or defamatory materials, materials that infringe rights of privacy and publicity of third parties or (without appropriate irrevocable licenses granted specifically for that purpose) any trademarks, copyright-protected works or other properties of third parties.

* All New Game Materials must contain prominent identification at least in any on-line description and with reasonable duration on the opening screen: (a) the name and E-mail address of the New Game Materials’ creator(s) and (b) the words “THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE OR SUPPORTED BY ACTIVISION.”

On short, the license allow you to make and distribute mods for non-commercial purposes. The license does not allow you the include copyright-protected work of others, and this includes New Game Materials made by others.

[edit]

(Also note that a license is only a license and not a law. The license might not matter that much in regard of what you actually may and may not do.)

[Beskar]

I don't know for sure but I think I'm right in believing that NO MODDER has ever asked for permisssion from Creative Assembly or whoever that was who designed TW series to maim and twist what they created.

You have full disclosure from Creative Assembly to modify the game for non-commercial purposes and not to be distributed in a format which doesn't require you to own the game. This is similar licence to almost every franchise. The only exception they sometimes make (like Paradox does) is deny you to modify the .exe code, but otherwise you can mod to your hearts content.

It was about the mods per se - no original thinking, no creative initiative, only second hand consumption. Crediting only underscores that ultimately it wasn't you who brought this product into being.
That is why I see no point in raising hue and cry over the alleged theft. Why, it is the same as Gollum (not the (ex)resident of this forum but the one in The hobbit) shouting "Baggins thief" chose to forget that the Ring was not his own and obtained after a crime.

But the current 'owner' is Gollum, even if he stole it by illicit means, it doesn't invalidate the fact it was stolen from him.

Either way, this is a bad example when it comes to modifications as better example would be the case of academic journals in how they supplement previous work.

Sorry this is how the world works, you cannot simply takes some one elses work and label it your own without any credits. In fact, all mods should actually credit CA in their work, this is usually done in the form of a disclaimer.

Mods are possible only because CA or SEGA just doesn't say anything. Each mod is based on a game and the game creator can force to shut down and delete a mod whenever he wants. Each mod is generally a crime that is allowed by game creator because it helps to spread the fame of an original game and brings more money.

Wrong.

As Nikodil posted: On short, the license allow you to make and distribute mods for non-commercial purposes. The license does not allow you the include copyright-protected work of others

Modding is older than the internet, since the very early days of Qbasic and dos, people were reprogramming to produce different results, many of these even became successful games. Obviously as the software became more sophisticated, they put in notices in regards to copyright and licencing. As this expanded they put in safeguards/licencing to make the practise of modding 'kosher' as it did end up producing more revenue for the corporations involved.

As such, it is not a crime as you stated, as CA gives permission.

--

The whole thing is simply a Gentleman/Ladies code of conduct. If some one helps you, you thank them, if some one contributed work to your project, you thank/give credit for it. This not only shows you have integrity as a modder but it also actually thanks those people who are willingly offering their help and support for your project and as such, they might help others knowing their help is well thought of and appreciated.

If this is not evident at the .Org, respect and honesty are things we value here, we also believe in justice, so if some one messes up, admits it then fixes it, it is seen as the issue being settled. We want a friendly atmosphere where people can contribute as kindred spirits, not as villains, so even if some one has wronged you, forgive them once the changes have been made.

As for a particular matter mentioned, it is rather dead and buried and it is five years old and it is settled. It shouldn't be discussed anymore and to credit caravel, it is like 'flogging a dead horse'. Since being aware this was brought up in another topic recently, I will recommend that this issue remains dropped.

[Brandy Blue]

6) He quite openly vilifies other members, such as gollum, myself, the "org management" or anyone else who disagrees with his point of view on this matter. Anyone who plays the Tyberius mod, or even mentions it, seems to become a target or is labeled as a "supporter". This is the main issue.

Caravel, you completely miss the point, as usual. Tyberius causes sunspots, global warming and also stole my socks, right out of the dryer. Plus he never combs his hair and hardly ever brushes his teeth or drinks his milk.

OK, now we have that clear, can we forget this whole thing ever happened?

[Stazi]

As such, it is not a crime as you stated, as CA gives permission.

Ok. My bad. But permission can be withdrawn any time, right? The same how Axalon withdrew his permission for Tiberius.

[Gilrandir]

But the current 'owner' is Gollum, even if he stole it by illicit means, it doesn't invalidate the fact it was stolen from him.

Thus if your mobile phone has been pinched and the next day going to the flea market you see it being sold by a vendor you cannot have him arrested for selling it and take your property back as it was not him who stole it?

the license allow you to make and distribute mods for non-commercial purposes.

Non-commercial purposes is a vague term. For example, Axalon created a MTW mod and let anyone download it for free just reminding with every download that this mod had been designed by him. Then he comes to you in person and offers, say, some pencils 2 dollars a dozen. You think: Oh I know this guy, he made a good mod (and let me have it for free), so his pencils must be good as well. And you buy four dozens. Now this mod becomes a PR action or advertisement or whatever you call it since it makes the name of the designer generally recognizable and liable for further commercial usages.
But you miss the point again: it is not about laws but about (let me repeat myself) the mods per se - no original thinking, no creative initiative, only second hand consumption.

[Beskar]

Ok. My bad. But permission can be withdrawn any time, right? The same how Axalon withdrew his permission for Tiberius.

In theory, yes. But CA would never do that though, it would only upset the mod community and cause less support for their games and less revenue as a result. So there is no reason for them to withdraw support.

For Axalon, the Tyberius mod was successful and is still played today. Unfortunately jealously can seep into the gentleman's code but Tyberius removed the instances of Axalon's work from his product so it is all okay.

Thus if your mobile phone has been pinched and the next day going to the flea market you see it being sold by a vendor you cannot have him arrested for selling it and take your property back as it was not him who stole it?

That is not your example. Your example was "Because Gollum stole the ring, it is okay that Bilbo stole it", it isn't. Thief is still thief. So Bilbo stealing it from Gollum still isn't acceptable even if Gollum got it illictly. As we know, Sauron (the true owner) still came after Bilbo and the one who inherited the ring, Frodo, to reclaim it.

Not sure where you get the idea about Flea Market and not being able to report them for fencing stolen goods as acceptable from.

Non-commercial purposes is a vague term. For example, Axalon created a MTW mod and let anyone download it for free just reminding with every download that this mod had been designed by him. Then he comes to you in person and offers, say, some pencils 2 dollars a dozen. You think: Oh I know this guy, he made a good mod (and let me have it for free), so his pencils must be good as well. And you buy four dozens. Now this mod becomes a PR action or advertisement or whatever you call it since it makes the name of the designer generally recognizable and liable for further commercial usages.

I think i can only sum this up as "...".

Commerical purposes is clearly selling or using the product in advertising. Simply wanting to buy pencils from Axalon because he did a mod for MTW some time in his past is something only so whacked out mentally, that you're not even wrong.

But you miss the point again: it is not about laws but about (let me repeat myself) the mods per se - no original thinking, no creative initiative, only second hand consumption.

I don't 'miss' your point, you just don't have a point to make. You are just slandering all people who dedicate creative talents to make additions to this game for free with no actual benefits to themselves with an opinion. There is no argument or point, it is simply your opinion. That opinion being: "no original thinking, no creative initiative, only second hand consumption".

I am sure both Tyberius and Axalon, and the great many other modders out there have worked hard on their mods and put in original thinking and creative initiative. Adding new art, code, ideas and concepts. So in concrete reality, there is clear evidence which counteracts your 'opinion'.

[LordK9]

This is like Nickelodeon.

[druzhina]

On the general point of modding and plagiarism. Modifying Mona Lisa is not a good analogy. Many designers of games like TW now encourage modding, even taking into account and providing tools for modding in the design process. Why? Because mods provide incentive for gamers to buy the original game. A mod is not release as a playable game, but as an add-on to a game. A better analogy would be adding a sound system to a car, but you have to buy a particular car to be able to add this sound system.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[Axalon]

Reality check 1A... Just because...

In this post from 2008, credit is clearly given for some content - I would say that throws out the argument for any claims of outright theft/plagiarism: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...rsion-Released!

This statement is a classic example of how Caravel is (actively) misleading people on the Tyberius-case by disregarding the genuine chain of events and what is actually relevant where and when. Its highly deceptive and if you are not well versed on the details on all this crap it would seem to be in good order at a glance, it is not, if one looks closer. First of all the post and particularly the credits there is an after-construct by Tyberius in December 2008, after his failure to provide credits in 2008. In short, it’s basically damage-control by Tyberius in 2008. Secondly, the post and credits provided there is as of the 2009-releases essentially irrelevant as the provided credits clearly are not intended for these releases. Why? Because the very reason Tyberius made those “corrected” releases in the first place was to supposedly “purge” his project from all material made by me. That was the official plan, and he vowed so both publicly and privately, and all previous permissions he once had was now void and gone - instead he had been explicitly prohibited by me to use ANY material made by me, in any way, anywhere. So, why credit me for something that he knew was not supposed to be there in the first place, and this some 1-2 months ahead of the actual releases? It’s absurd, and it does not add up. Thus, it can only be explained by the fact that it was not intended (or adjusted) for any 2009-releases, and that reality makes the post and its credits virtually irrelevant (save serving as back-story) as of the 2009-releases. The case/conflict was still confined to mine and Tyberius materials, who had created what and where that material was included and used etc. etc. Caravel have had 5+ years to somehow wise up on all this and still he fail miserably at doing just that. And still he styles himself as a supposed standing authority on all this.

It needs to be made clear that this was not a simple case of someone ripping off someone elses stuff from behind their back...

What needs to be made clear is that Caravel constantly disregards the actual chain of events and confuses where and when things are really relevant. The statement is valid for 2008 events in general, as of 2009 and beyond, it is not. And that is exactly what he fails to point out here, and thus overtly suggests it would be, and that is clearly deceptive and misleading. In 2009 it was completely new set of circumstances, different from what it had been in 2008. By now, Tyberius had lost all permissions, instead he had been explicitly prohibited by me to use any of it. And, he knew that I would not tolerate any “mistakes” what so ever this time around. This was his big chance to redeem both his work and practices. He knew all that, and this well before he ever made these last releases. In short, in 2009 it was completely new set of circumstances. And, ironically, from that point on, it could thus very well be reduced to just “a simple case of someone ripping off someone elses stuff from behind their back” due to the actual circumstances at the time of release. Imagine that…

Collaboration in both directions: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post1994689

As of 2009, this is essentially irrelevant…Its relevancy is confined to that of general back-story prior to the 2009-releases, other then that it’s totally irrelevant at this point…

Permission to use the images was initially given: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2078983

As of 2009, this is essentially irrelevant…Its relevancy is confined to that of general back-story prior to the 2009-releases, other then that it’s totally irrelevant at this point…

1) While it was clearly wrong for Tyberius to not to give proper credit (though once again I point to the first first link), the offending images were removed and an apology issued.

As of 2009, this is essentially irrelevant…Its relevancy is confined to that of general back-story prior to the 2009-releases, other then that it’s totally irrelevant at this point…

2) Permission was given (third link), credit was given, perhaps sloppily in the linked thread, the whole issue here appears to be that there was no text file with proper credits actually included with the distribution files.

As of 2009, this is essentially irrelevant…Its relevancy is confined to that of general back-story prior to the 2009-releases, other then that it’s totally irrelevant at this point…

3) …in the later corrected release is just one person's word against another's.

And how does he support this claim? Yup, by his very own personal word for it… Anyways, it has been rather clear to me that Caravel never bothered to actually examine the relevant files in question, which in turn could have provided a clue if this was somehow the case or not. This if we totally ignore the reality that the files are already gone – which by itself provides the ultimate proof that there was more at play here then mere personal words for it. Besides, plain common sense tells us that other people’s files just don’t get deleted permanently by invoking a personal word for it left and right. I mean it just silly to think so. If nothing else Tyberius (or anybody), would have all the reason in the world to contest it or at least re-upload the files again. None of that ever happened. Not once… So, this notion/claim is ridiculous BS, and I have just explained why…

4) A dispute between two people over a personal issue, should never be used as justification for shitting up two messageboards with negativity and a sour grapes attitude for nearly 6 years.

On the general principle, I so totally agree, it should not. I for one would love to have some peace and quiet for a change on the Tyberius-note.

However, this is really not on my table, as I have never initiated any public “Tyberius-feud” anywhere after 2008, if memory serves… And, I’ll happily examine the evidence that seriously suggests otherwise. Until then, it might be worthwhile pointing out that another man, spelled “Caravel” has multiple times, multiple threads, for several years, and across boards done essentially just that very thing on the Tyberius-case. This by relentlessly contesting and fighting virtually everything I post about the Tyberius-case whenever it came up somehow. I frankly have never ever encountered anything like it, anywhere. It’s unique and just bizarre in the extreme… Maybe this Caravel-character should think about that the next time he effectively trashes a thread - that was doing just fine until he showed up - in the name of “doing Tyberius justice”, as I supposedly constantly fail at this, essentially no matter what I do…

That said, the Tyberius-case never was limited to a mere personal issue as Caravel suggests - maybe for Caravel - but beyond that no. I have always fought for the principles that were betrayed in this case. I made that clear from day 1, which Caravel obviously fails completely to recognize here. And, it is actually these I usually try to post about whenever I do post about the subject in general.

Anyhow… As to put his statement into further perspective, I want to point out that I have been formally investigated by TWC-staff, at the insistence of Caravel, some 3-4 times as I understand it (and I was acquitted every time). I on the other hand have demanded that Caravel was formally investigated by staff, some zero times at the TWC (the staff there can probably verify all this, if necessary)… Get my drift? …I’ll leave it at that…

5) The feud is one sided, hence beating a dead horse, because Tyberius is long gone - so it's normal members who know nothing of this dispute (and quite rightly don't care about it) who are having to suffer almost every thread invaded with slanderous venom filled diatribes, interspersed with the usual gratuitous promotion of his own modding project.

See previous comment, as it covers this as well. I was investigated at the TWC for these very charges, was it one or two times? I can’t remember. I was formally acquitted anyway…

6) He quite openly vilifies other members, such as gollum, myself, the "org management" or anyone else who disagrees with his point of view on this matter. Anyone who plays the Tyberius mod, or even mentions it, seems to become a target or is labeled as a "supporter". This is the main issue.

In short, this is hysterical and screwed up BS… I have zero regard for Caravel, this is true, and the reasons for that should be painfully obvious by now. I have never spoken to Gollum about these things at any length, was it one post? One sentence? Two? Anyway, the administration is ultimately responsible for what happens here, and what is allowed to happen on this forum. All of it did happen right here and I don’t agree with the way it was handled by them. I think they (the brass responsible at the time) handled it poorly. I voiced that a few times, what of it? Its plain criticism.

Anyhow, several of the most frequent posters in the RX-area are old Tyberius players (and have supported his older stuff anyways), and I know that, and beyond that we have typically kept our different takes on all that private. This have worked just fine for years. I prefer to keep it that way, if I can help it. Looking at the top 10 posters there (minus myself), main thread, some 6-8 top-posters have played and supported old Tyberius-stuff, and I known that for ages. Check the thread and find out if we have had any arguments about it, as Caravel generally suggest would typically and regularly be the case. Go right ahead…

Personally, I don’t like any careless use of Tyberius-stuff, due to all events, my reasons are both personal and principal - but it is out of my hands, and I know that. I have at times hinted or explained how I look at it, when it seemed relevant. Other then that, people do have a right to know about the Tyberius-stuff in a general sense, and in this regard I try to act accordingly - and I know all that stuff extremely well. I’m well aware that I am directly involved, and so I have to always be extra careful in what I say about it, and I have never tried to hide that I was part of it. I certainly try to make as few mistakes as possible about it. Anyways, what people do with that general info on it, is out of my hands. Some care, some does not.


***

So, there we are… Caravel have obviously already had his chance to say his piece, and now I have had mine as well (playing defense, as usual). People can now freely decide what to believe about all this, for whatever that is worth. I’m so totally extremely ok to just leave it right there – and never look back...

- A

[Stazi]

Hmm.. there is one thing that still bothers me. I've just checked the Tyberius' mod thread and found this:

Credits and Special thanks regarding all Tyberius mod and patches:
...
Axalon: for Additional unit-review pics, additional unit icons, additional info-pics and other various graphic material used in this game (for several and various info-pics),(and for teaching me in his "advanced whining mode" about how to make a good info pic) .”

The post was

Last edited by Tyberius; 12-02-08 at 04:03.

So, in fact, credits were given December 2nd 2008 or even earlier. The question I'm asking myself: Is the whole case a huge misunderstanding?

[Axalon]

Sigh… Alright, fine…

I think I can see how you reason (I think), and I suppose it then technically would fall under the category of “not adjusted” credits then, due to the “all”. But you are seriously missing the real point, as of 2009 no credits in the world could have saved him, he could have included 200 pages thanking me for god knows what, and still it would not change anything. In 2009 it was no longer about any credits, not really, it was about the fact that I flat out had forbidden him to use and include ANYTHING in ANY way in his project and work… That’s the killer here…

He knew that, or at least that is my understanding from the mails I received from him on this. And I would have requested Atomic to delete the files regardless of any credits because that is not what truly matter here, not for me. What matters is that he should have respected my will and left my material alone (I had even rigorously marked it as “restricted/personal use only”, due to previous events). He did not do that, he included parts of it anyhow in his work and project, and it is because of that reality that the files are gone, as a result. As I still reserve the right to determine how any of my material is used and distributed in public.

Satisfied?

- A

[caravel]

Reality check 1A... Just because...

This statement is a classic example of how Caravel is (actively) misleading people [...] Caravel have had 5+ years to somehow wise up on all this and still he fail miserably at doing just that. And still he styles himself as a supposed standing authority on all this.

Nope, you're the one wielding accusations and slandering people - believe it or not it's down to you to present evidence...

And how does he support this claim? Yup, by his very own personal word for it…

Somewhat hilarious when you are asking everyone who reads your posts to do the same and have been doing this for 6 years...

Anyways, it has been rather clear to me that Caravel never bothered to actually examine the relevant files in question

Refer again to my first point...

On the general principle, I so totally agree, it should not. I for one would love to have some peace and quiet for a change on the Tyberius-note.

This is an absurd statement as you are the one who resurrects this idiocy time and again and at every opportunity. The locked thread is a text book example - geezer57 mentions the Tyberius mod and you turn up with your usual patronising lecture.

However, this is really not on my table, as I have never initiated any public “Tyberius-feud” anywhere after 2008, if memory serves…

Then you must have a very poor memory.

And, I’ll happily examine the evidence that seriously suggests otherwise.

So now we have to provide any 'evidence', but when it comes to your petty feud and the plagiarism, claims, the ridiculous babble of dates, etc... we're expected to take your "personal word for it"?

Until then, it might be worthwhile pointing out that another man, spelled “Caravel” has multiple times, multiple threads, for several years, and across boards done essentially just that very thing on the Tyberius-case.

And as ever that's a complete and utter lie. Members can look for themselves to find any thread I've started about this. They will find precisely none. They can look for any posts where I have replied, they will find a few - most in response to your continual slandering of this absent member and trashing of his mod, while promoting your own.

This by relentlessly contesting and fighting virtually everything I post about the Tyberius-case whenever it came up somehow.

So now you admit that you post about the Tyberius case, yet before you have never initiated a feud...? There is no "somehow", you bring it up - each and every time some member posts something completely innocent about it (e.g. praises it or promotes it in some manner).

Anyhow… As to put his statement into further perspective, I want to point out that I have been formally investigated by TWC-staff, at the insistence of Caravel, some 3-4 times as I understand it (and I was acquitted every time). I on the other hand have demanded that Caravel was formally investigated by staff, some zero times at the TWC (the staff there can probably verify all this, if necessary)… Get my drift? …I’ll leave it at that…

And once again we have to take "your personal word for it"?

In fact you were 'investigated' once at my behest (another member made me aware of what you were up to and I definitely wasn't the only person complaining - so I'd advise you to take a "reality check" and stop deluding yourself). If there were multiple "investigations", then I was only one of them. This is because during your time at TWC as a moderator, you spent most of your time in closing threads, behaving obnoxiously and steering every topic to suit your own agenda. Your first action as moderator was to sticky your own mod thread, you then proceeded to continue attacking the Tyberius mod while promoting your own. Orgahs can "take my personal word" for it, or they can just go and search TWC...

See previous comment, as it covers this as well. I was investigated at the TWC for these very charges, was it one or two times? I can’t remember. I was formally acquitted anyway…

You said 3-4 times - make up your mind...

And, well no you weren't 'acquitted', or does losing your position as moderator equal acquittal in your book?

Anyway, the administration is ultimately responsible for what happens here, and what is allowed to happen on this forum. All of it did happen right here and I don’t agree with the way it was handled by them. I think they (the brass responsible at the time) handled it poorly. I voiced that a few times, what of it? Its plain criticism.

Nothing to do with the admin - pity you can't see that and I'm sure that you never will - it was your own personal, petty dispute, which you could have resolved if you didn't insist on treating other people like something you just scraped off your shoe...

So, there we are… Caravel have obviously already had his chance to say his piece, and now I have had mine as well (playing defense, as usual). People can now freely decide what to believe about all this, for whatever that is worth. I’m so totally extremely ok to just leave it right there – and never look back...

- A

So long as people freely decide to believe your version and "take your personal word for it" eh?

You've done your best to skew the facts and mislead the reader - but you're so hopelessly transparent, it's just laughable... This whole idea that you're somehow the injured party, who has never put a foot wrong, is the worst bullshit of all. I've never yet seen my name mentioned in one post so many times before - yet this is supposed to be about supposed plagiarism of your work? Yet instead of providing actual evidence, everyone in this thread has to take "your personal word for it" that is happened? Your focus on attacking and discrediting me really just shows you up for what you really are and actually takes away even more of your credibility...

When you consider that it has been you who has baited me and attacked me over the years, especially while I was actually resolved to "live and let live" and just ignore you, it pretty much says it all...

You're quite simply an astoundingly delusional hypocrite.

What has been clear to me all along is that plagiarism was always secondary and destroying an imagined "competitor" the primary objective.

//edit:
With reference to TWC (I didn't bring it - you did) .org members should also consider this kind of thing:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=1#post5634995

My original post is as it appears now - after the edit I made (much later). You abused your moderator powers to edit my post to remove the reference to "XL/Tyberius", you also edited the following post by "Ivan The Terrible" to remove the quoted reference:

Last edited by Axalon; July 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM. Reason: Clean up...

Yes, you are in fact listed as the last editor of that post where you removed the reference to XL/Tyberius from the quote. Do you deny this?
(I'm sure that I can persuade TWC admin to at least verify that the edit history is as I have stated it - luckily vBulletin preserves edit history in full).

You have gotten responses from me, because you have posted your bullshit and infested every thread with this crap. You've also baited me, yet you play victim when I respond to thread like this - that makes you a hypocrite.

You're a sad, sad individual - and I'm pretty much done wasting any more time arguing with you... it's gotten to the stage where I'm really having to seriously question myself getting involved in this... it's really up to .org members to decide if they want to stand for your shit - I don't claim to be perfect or to represent anyone. I'm history here, have been for years - so really this down to the members who are still active here to decide what they want from this forum.

[Axalon]

How typical... I'll comment on your TWC-thread evidence at least...

Yup, I did that, I don't think it was the best call I ever made, but technically it was a completely legit and correct call. The TWC staff at the time agreed. The problem here is specifically that it was you who posted it, this made it more complicated then it would have been otherwise, due to our personal antagonism. As you frequently and generally had problems in actually focusing on the topics at hand, I decided to act all the same - despite this sensitive dimension to it. If I made a mistake, then it was that and little else. Not the reasons why I acted.

It was an off-topic remark and clearly irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I removed it (all over) as to minimize confusion for visitors, and politely asked that you respected the actual topic (which you have failed at again I see, as you have obviously edited it back, now at a later date. It still is as incompatible and irrelevant to v.1.1 as ever, but you don't care about that of course, never did I guess). It happened to be XL/Tyberius, I would have done the same thing had it been spelled "BKB supmod" or "Donald Duck Mod" or whatever - as long as it was not compatible with v.1.1 - it had no place there. You knew that already and still you posted it. Maybe to test/provoke me or maybe something else. I can't tell. What I do know is that Tyberius work has diddly to do with that thread, as none of it is compatible with v.1.1 in the first place, ergo it is irrelevant. What was done was done, and that for the reasons I have just explained... Had it been today, I would have requested another moderator to do this one, just to avoid the possibility for BS accusations like this....


***

You're quite simply an astoundingly delusional hypocrite.

Oh no, that is your domain, always was... We both know that... I have my own flaws, but that one is yours...

Anyway, I have already spent far more time on you and your ridiculous claims here then deserved (yet again). If people are stupid enough believe your stuff, fine so be it. If they want to ignore common sense and believe that it was evil magic and imagined laser-beams that made Atomic delete the Tyberius-files, then so be it. They are gone all the same, and that is what matters. I have already said what clearly needed to be said about your "insights" on the Tyberius-case, and I stand by it, until proven wrong.

- A

[Gilrandir]

Your example was "Because Gollum stole the ring, it is okay that Bilbo stole it", it isn't. Thief is still thief. So Bilbo stealing it from Gollum still isn't acceptable even if Gollum got it illictly. As we know, Sauron (the true owner) still came after Bilbo and the one who inherited the ring, Frodo, to reclaim it.

Let me play Baggins advocate. Technically, Bilbo didn't STEAL the Ring - he found it. He didn't know who it (had) belonged to. In his conversation with Bilbo face to face Gollum never admitted he had lost the Ring (he said he lost his precious) and he never explicitly asked Bilbo to return the Ring. He just asked what Bilbo had in his pocketses, jumped to the conclusion and tried to attack my defendant.
Bilbo discovered the nature of the loss and some of its powers only when he was escaping/following Gollum to the exit out of the Orc-mines. So, the only thing he may be accused of is withholding a trove which Gollum had allegedly lost. And how could he have returned it? Perhaps he should have taken off the Ring and handed it back to Gollum, saying: "Here is your ring, now go ahead and kill me". So I believe we can speak here not of a theft (a crime) but of a morally ambiguous issue whether you should return the lost things to the (alleged) owner who instead of thanking is likely to murder you after that. My defendant may have failed to keep his integrity but all charges of theft are groundless.
And one more thing. I want to apologize to all whom my "opinion" involuntairily offended. I was expressing my exasperation at what I can see around. Modding has become a part of our life, including the very provinces which are supposed to be the essence of creation. I listen to Madonna's "Hung up" and I hear the main theme of ABBA's "Gimme, gimme, gimme", I listen to Pitbull and Aguilera's "Feel this moment" and I hear A-HA's "Take on me", I listen to Jennifer Lopez' "On the floor" and I hear Kaoma's "Lambada" .... Successful modding? Remember the movie "Avatar" and those soaring cliffs? Read through Andrew Norton carefully. You know, one guy in Russia (Nick Perumov) wrote a sequel to "The lord of the rings". He may have erected his own building but used the foundations laid by others. Would one buy his books if they were not advertised as "You feel sorry that LOTR was too short? Here is what happened next"? It seems to me that a good deal of modern artists do not spend time basking in the joy of creation but searching databases of different kinds to find something suitable to mod. I have to own up to it: ours is the age of mods, sequels, remakes and cover versions.
This is what I wanted others to see. If I had done it in a cantankerous and peevish way, I apologize.

[caravel]

How typical... I'll comment on your TWC-thread evidence at least...

Yup, I did that, I don't think it was the best call I ever made, but technically it was a completely legit and correct call. The TWC staff at the time agreed.

Bollocks. It was typical of every "call" you ever made at TWC.

The problem here is specifically that it was you who posted it, this made it more complicated then it would have been otherwise, due to our personal antagonism. As you frequently and generally had problems in actually focusing on the topics at hand, I decided to act all the same - despite this sensitive dimension to it. If I made a mistake, then it was that and little else. Not the reasons why I acted.

So you edited because it was my post...?

It was no mistake on your part, that much is clear.

it was an off-topic remark and clearly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Topic: Any Worthwhile Mods For Med Standalone?

My comment: I would strongly recommend that you get the VI Expansion. This will open the doors for you to a whole world of different mods

I would also highly recommend the XL/Tyberius mod.

Now explain exactly why that is 'offtopic'? I first recommended VI and in the following sentence, the XL/Tyberius mod. I don't see a problem and this has happened hundreds of times here over the years without anyone editing anyone's posts... the OP could take it or leave it and no one complained except you.

In fact the OP later posted: Just an update, I have found my old copy of Viking Invasion and installed it. Thus, I'll hold off on mods for a bit; as I love that game vanilla.

Offtopic as well no doubt? Yet you didn't censor that or split it to a new thread...

It means that my advice was relevant and on topic - I think most reasonable people would agree...

Your problem with that post was a) because it was me and b) because I recommended XL/Tyberius. Simple abuse of power which you are going to great lengths to explain away.

The linked thread is also an embarrassment for you as it clearly shows where you take a perfectly innocent comment "any worthwhile mods" and turn it into something else entirely...

I removed it (all over) as to minimize confusion for visitors, and politely asked that you respected the actual topic (which you have failed at again I see, as you have obviously edited it back, now at a later date.

All this, yet above you said "I don't think it was the best call". Yet a few paragraphs on you're still trying to defend your actions. It was abuse of position, pure and simple - that's what you did during your tenure at TWC and that's why you're no longer a mod at TWC.

[blah blah blah] it had no place there.

It was in fact a perfectly valid post. No one but you, with a grudge against me and against Tyberius and his mod would have edited it - so stop trying to excuse yourself.

You knew that already and still you posted it. Maybe to test/provoke me or maybe something else.

As I said, laughably transparent - so you took the post as a personal provocation?

Anyway, I have already spent far more time on you and your ridiculous claims here then deserved (yet again).

Yet you've made no "ridiculous claims", none at all... you're always correct and everyone just has to take your word for it. If you had any sense at all you'd actually be embarrassed to keep bringing up your personal feuds in such a public manner. But of course you'll blame me for the same thing - lucky for you really that a lot of the posts here where you tried to provoke me are gone - but the staff know it happened - but no, of course they're against you as well...

The hardest part for you to understand is: No one actually cares about your hate campaign against Tyberius or me or anyone else...

that made Atomic delete the Tyberius-files, then so be it. They are gone all the same, and that is what matters

Not really, if you go whining to atomic gamer about plagiarism, they will usually err on the side of caution and just take the files down. I stated this earlier. It doesn't mean that someone at atomic gamer sat down and looked through the whole case in detail and totally agreed with you...

[Stazi]

Satisfied?

Yup, thanks for the answer. But.. you know what really struck me? This:

as of 2009 no credits in the world could have saved him, he could have included 200 pages thanking me for god knows what, and still it would not change anything.

Why are you so hard on him? He made a mistake and forgot to add credits. Yes, you're right. But he corrected it some time later. I assume you're not a Christian of any kind because forgiveness seems a term unknown to you. Did he sell your work? No! He just made another, good mod and let people play it for free. Do you think he made his mod to show people how great he is (using other people work)? I'm sure he made it for himself and then gave it to the community to let people enjoy it as much as he enjoyed it. If you'd forget the whole "credits" thing you'd probably enjoy his mod too, as much as all others here. That's the main reason for mods and games in general. Just to forgot for a while about the real world shit and have fun.

Do you realize how the whole case looks like for me and probably for other people too? For five long years you hunt down anyone that mentions Tyberius' mod. You bring your problem again and again to people who just want to play a nice mod and don't give a shit about the rest. You are unable to forgive and forget it despite Tyberius fixed his mistake long time ago and all versions of his mod that contained your stuff were removed. You are so focused on yourself and your greatness that it's unbelievable. You seem the most selfish person I've ever seen. When I read your posts I constantly hear that voice saying "mine, my own, my preciousss". I'm sorry to say that but that's how the picture looks like from my perspective. I hope you'll think about it and try to be a better person in the future.

[Axalon]

Why are you so hard on him? He made a mistake and forgot to add credits. Yes, you're right. But he corrected it some time later. I assume you're not a Christian of any kind because forgiveness seems a term unknown to you. Did he sell your work? No! He just made another, good mod and let people play it for free. Do you think he made his mod to show people how great he is (using other people work)? I'm sure he made it for himself and then gave it to the community to let people enjoy it as much as he enjoyed it. If you'd forget the whole "credits" thing you'd probably enjoy his mod too, as much as all others here. That's the main reason for mods and games in general. Just to forgot for a while about the real world shit and have fun.

Do you realize how the whole case looks like for me and probably for other people too? For five long years you hunt down anyone that mentions Tyberius' mod. You bring your problem again and again to people who just want to play a nice mod and don't give a shit about the rest. You are unable to forgive and forget it despite Tyberius fixed his mistake long time ago and all versions of his mod that contained your stuff were removed. You are so focused on yourself and your greatness that it's unbelievable. You seem the most selfish person I've ever seen. When I read your posts I constantly hear that voice saying "mine, my own, my preciousss". I'm sorry to say that but that's how the picture looks like from my perspective. I hope you'll think about it and try to be a better person in the future.

I see....

If that is what you want to believe, then so be it. I tried to explain things the best I could and clearly that was not good enough for you. I'll be plain, the first time around he treated my work like shit, literally, and he did even not bother to credit it either, which was to only thing I had asked for. I resented all of it. Then he had his golden chance to redeem his actions and practices, and set things right. He did not bother doing that seriously and honestly, and that was painfully obvious to me. Then I forbid the man to use anything that was mine as I was thru with both him and his project. He gets second chance to redeem himself and his work at least, but now we go separate ways... What does he do? He screws that up too and uses my stuff anyway, despite I told him explicitly to not do just that. And now you blame me for being too harsh on him and its my fault for not being kind enough to let him use it anyway... Oh for crap sake, please...

Have it your way - I'm evil... I'm thru with this.... If you want play Tyberius other stuff, by all means do so, I am hardly stopping you. The links are there and open for business. You go right ahead. If you still somehow want to believe that I am actively trying to stop you from doing just that, all the same, then fine, so be it. If I am jealous at Tyberius, for him stealing and abusing my work - fine, so be it.... If I am destroying him as a competitor, because he threatens me somehow, alright lets roll with that... Have it you way... I just don't care... Not with this crowd... Not anymore...

I'm so utterly thru with this, all of it...

- A

[Lemur]

This thread appears to be past its sell-by date, so we're taking it off the shelf.