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Thread: Bye bye, Britain

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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Bye bye, Britain

    Great Britain wants to make the people vote if they want to stay in the European Union or leave it and Britains politicians keep on demanding reforms of the Union so that Britain can stay.

    This is my point of view.

    Of course Britain is part of Europe (although they may not fell that way) with common values, history and economy. Britain is an economical power, which could and should be one of the leaders of the Union. However, Britain likes to play the internal opposition, claiming special conditions and blocking the development of the Union.

    I think it would not be democratic to insist that Britain stays, if its people do not want to. The EU is not the USA, there will be no Civil War. However, it would be more undemocratic if Britain wanted to dictate the course of the Union.


    The European Union is based on solidarity as a counter concept to national egoism and class struggle. Britain has a completely different view on economy, foreign policy and military. If Britain does not want to follow the European way, it may leave. And it should do it as soon as possible without this painful comedy.

    I do not think that there is a way to keep Britain in the Union. Te differences came to a point where there does not seem to be a good compromise any longer. Especially the British spying of citizens of other European countries is absolotely proves that there is no way to keep Britain in the Union.

    There is no bad thing in leaving the Union, GB would still be a friend with economical and military connections. But the Union would no longer hinder the Britain to go its way and the Union would finally be able to go on itself.

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    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    GB will save on its membership fee, and will be free to set its own laws of immigration. IMO the best course of action for the country.
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    The European Union is based on solidarity
    Ha ha ha! Oh my aching sides. You should do stand up mate.

    Look, its really simple.

    The British were lied to from the very beginning about the true nature of the 'Union'. We were told in no uncertain terms that it was only a trading bloc and on that basis we voted to join it. Fast forward forty years and it does not resemble anything like the British people voted for.

    Put it this way, if we wanted to be ruled by a foreign power we'd have given up in June 1940, just after you lot did.

    We don't take kindly to being fed falsehoods and misrepresentations.

    Thank God for UKIP. At last a party that does what it says on the tin.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    We aren't very happy with the EU here either. Except for those who are happy with it.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Who will the British blame for their troubles once the EU no longer serves as the scapegoat?

    Are the British mature enough to accept the reality that they have themselves to blame for their troubles?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Nurse! He's out of bed again.

    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    The Brittish just doesn't like to be ruled by a foreign power. Neither do we, while polls can't be relied upon because the questions are suggestive, it wouldn't be that far of a strech to claim that the majority of the Dutch are sick of the EU. If we can find a buddy in the English that would be great. The German industry can't function without us so making a deal should be easy.

  8. #8
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Are the British ruled by a foreign power? How is this?
    The European Union has many problems and most of all - if not all - are caused by national governments and parties.
    If anything goes wrong it is always the Union taht is blamed for it.
    One example is the water supply - the Union was ordered by the national governemnts to make a regulation for that including the privatization. There had been at least two milestone reports agreed by the national governemnts before it went into public. Then, when the people showed that they were uneasy with a new regulation, all over sudden the national goverment was against it too (means had always been against it) and promised to stop it. That is the way things are going.

    As stated above, if the Brits get happy without the Union, that is alright with me. They should just stop bothering the rest.

  9. #9
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    The Brittish just doesn't like to be ruled by a foreign power. Neither do we, while polls can't be relied upon because the questions are suggestive, it wouldn't be that far of a strech to claim that the majority of the Dutch are sick of the EU. If we can find a buddy in the English that would be great. The German industry can't function without us so making a deal should be easy.
    Interesting claim. Why is it so? I'd argue that the German industry can't function without Poland. Would not have considered the Netherlands to be of much importance (industry wise).
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    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Since Cameron is determined to incarcerate everybody for everything and for as long as possible, spy on everybody in the most invasive ways, deny the poor healthcare, remove the social security net, and generally undo the 20th Century; I am actually a little concerned about the prospect of leaving the EU. Britain does have a political culture that is distinct from what you see on the continent and that does cause issues with the EU, but to be honest I am more worried about the tendency in the major parties to increasingly turn us into another Reaganite-style America.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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  11. #11
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Britain is experiencing a new low in public trust, we have become disillusioned, cynical, over the last decade every party has been shown not to live up to the expectations of their supporters:
    Labour is incompetent and counterproductive, The liberal democrats sold themselves out, The conservatives are elitist gits padding thier offshore bank accounts with public funds, and UKip dont seem to have any idea what they will do after they get thier goals. (This scares me shedless when I consider they have an unfortunate habit of filling out thier ranks with the same breed of far right maniacs who buggered the USA.)

    Point is our own politicians are smeg, we dont trust them as far as we can throw them, and yet they still look a mile better than the EU politicians because they have yet to turn Britain into another greece/ireland/spain. And now we see signs that those very EU politicians are trying to edge out our own parliament. Whether or not those signs are fictional, the very possibility that these idiots could take over from our idiots is bloody terrifying, enough to throw away an economic union in an attempt to avert it.
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    Since Cameron is determined to incarcerate everybody for everything and for as long as possible, spy on everybody in the most invasive ways, deny the poor healthcare, remove the social security net, and generally undo the 20th Century; I am actually a little concerned about the prospect of leaving the EU. Britain does have a political culture that is distinct from what you see on the continent and that does cause issues with the EU, but to be honest I am more worried about the tendency in the major parties to increasingly turn us into another Reaganite-style America.
    I do not follow the various political happenings in the UK, Cameron may be evil incarnate -- I have not followed him enough to form or gainsay such an assessment.

    If you associate the various steps listed in your first sentence with Reaganism, however, I can assure you that the "Reaganite" label you are using is a stereotype at best. Look up that administration's actions, particularly domestically, and you won't see much "reversing the 20th century" in there. US Neo-cons and TEA partyers' are far more ardent and determined on trashing everything that fails to adhere to their ideological models than Reagan ever was. Reagan believed in the doable.
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 02-03-2014 at 13:47.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus View Post
    Are the British ruled by a foreign power? How is this?
    The European Union has many problems and most of all - if not all - are caused by national governments and parties.
    If anything goes wrong it is always the Union taht is blamed for it.
    One example is the water supply - the Union was ordered by the national governemnts to make a regulation for that including the privatization. There had been at least two milestone reports agreed by the national governemnts before it went into public. Then, when the people showed that they were uneasy with a new regulation, all over sudden the national goverment was against it too (means had always been against it) and promised to stop it. That is the way things are going.

    As stated above, if the Brits get happy without the Union, that is alright with me. They should just stop bothering the rest.
    The European Court of Human Rights - which is tied to the EU today - has told the British Government that it MUST give prisoners the vote.

    Imposing restrictions on the franchise is core right of a sovereign government - taking that away from the UK Parliament is the definition of foreign rule.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    The European Court of Human Rights - which is tied to the EU today - has told the British Government that it MUST give prisoners the vote.

    Imposing restrictions on the franchise is core right of a sovereign government - taking that away from the UK Parliament is the definition of foreign rule.
    Nothing wrong with the right to vote going to prisoners. Most are just unfortunate people or those who conducted mild crimes. Even though given the apathy in elections, the prisoners most likely won't care much.

    Though I actually approve of the court of human rights as it ensures national governments safeguard the liberties of its citizens. Because of that, it is safer to travel within Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Thank God for UKIP. At last a party that does what it says on the tin.
    "We're a bunch of quack-pots which should avoid politics at all costs! But we hate Europe enough just to stick the middle finger at them which appeals to a bunch of people"
    Last edited by Beskar; 02-03-2014 at 14:57.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    The European Court of Human Rights - which is tied to the EU today - has told the British Government that it MUST give prisoners the vote.

    Imposing restrictions on the franchise is core right of a sovereign government - taking that away from the UK Parliament is the definition of foreign rule.
    I see the EU is busy learning you barbarian savages how a proper democracy works.

    Taking away the vote for prisoners is absurd.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Maybe UK should apply to become part of USA? I think it would be interesting closure for a historical circle.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I do not follow the various political happenings in the UK, Cameron may be evil incarnate -- I have not followed him enough to form or gainsay such an assessment.
    A lot of it is blowing hot-air.

    The thing is, to most in the south of England (London), they would rather be part of the United States than be part of the European Union. The concept of the 'American Dream' did breach our shores.

    Scotland, Ireland, Wales, North of England would rather be part of the European Union.

    Issue is, London dictates to the rest of Britain. it is also part of the powerhouse of the conservative party too. With Scotland Independence looming, David Cameron gains by sanctioning because the Scots hate the Tories and their policies. So it would be getting rid of their biggest political bloc which would always vote against them. With the Tories in power and them most likely going to announce some big policies which Scotland opposes just before, they are bound to say 'yes' to get away.

    Northern Ireland is kind of a special case as it is becoming more 'Shared' with Ireland, and there maybe a day when Northern Ireland re-unites in some form with the Republic. Wales has been more nationalistic within the last decade, from bringing a language back from the dead and forcing it mainstream in a bid to separate themselves. So they would most likely leave. Nationalistic tendencies growing in Cornwall. This then leaves the North of England more screwed over by London and the South.
    Last edited by Beskar; 02-03-2014 at 14:49.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Which is why I am always going to be against the independence movements. Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Please don't leave us alone with these people!
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    Maybe UK should apply to become part of USA? I think it would be interesting closure for a historical circle.
    The question is, would it become the 51st state or would you have to break the UK down into 4 states?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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  20. #20
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Interesting claim. Why is it so? I'd argue that the German industry can't function without Poland. Would not have considered the Netherlands to be of much importance (industry wise).
    Logistical-wise. Rotterdam is the only harbour that is efficiecent enough to ship raw materials, and the only harbour that can take the mammoths. From Rotterdam our waterways go to Germany, as well as the railroads.
    Last edited by Fragony; 02-03-2014 at 15:21.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    The question is, would it become the 51st state or would you have to break the UK down into 4 states?
    Well, it would most likely be the 52nd, but it would only be England joining as no one else wants to (and the North is dragged in by the South). This is why the American view of the British Isles is to join the European Union get engaged with the politics there to make it more USA-friendly.

    Then comes in Myths 'Trans-Atlantic Union' theory.
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Logistical-wise. Rotterdam is the only harbour that is efficiecent enough to ship raw materials, and the only harbour that can take the mammoths. From Rotterdam our waterways go to Germany, as well as the railroads.
    Irrelevant, and simply a standard ethnocentric claim of superiority. All the "X won't work without us!"-claims are bogus.

    German industry currently relies on Rotterdam simply because Rotterdam exists and is available. If Rotterdam didn't exist, a new harbour would be the point of export.

    Most of the Norwegian international shipping goes through Malmø. However, it is absurd to state that Norway would shut down if someone closed Malmø. We'd simply create another harbour. Just like the Germans would.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    British Governments are so often in the position that while closer involvement in the European project may (or may not) be a sensible national policy it isn't generally not be in their electoral interests. Rock and a hard place is not where a politician like to be. In the same way in which the Argentinian government tries to look strong by bellyaching about the Falklands and the Spanish about Gibraltar so our lot play to the home crowd by being seen to be "strong" on Europe.

    Have the auditors signed off the EU's books yet?
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Logistical-wise. Rotterdam is the only harbour that is efficiecent enough to ship raw materials, and the only harbour that can take the mammoths. From Rotterdam our waterways go to Germany, as well as the railroads.
    Looking at the figures, Fragony is correct. Rotterdam is very significant, with Antwerp second with under half. Then 3rd is Hamburg which is a 4th. Amsterdam is 4th on the list for tonnage, but it is not a container port.

    However, there is a little flaw in Fragony's theory and that is if the Netherlands leave the EU, the EU would not use its ports. Simply because the Netherlands has to make its money from somewhere for its ports and I don't think they will turn down German cash.

    If Netherlands didn't play ball, then it would be as HoreTore suggests, it would be financially worthwhile to create another or expand Hamburg.
    Last edited by Beskar; 02-03-2014 at 15:37.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    Looking at the figures, Fragony is correct. Rotterdam is very significant, with Antwerp second with under half. Then 3rd is Hamburg which is a 4th. Amsterdam is 4th on the list for tonnage, but it is not a container port.

    However, there is a little flaw in Fragony's theory and that is if the Netherlands leave the EU, the EU would not use its ports. Simply because the Netherlands has to make its money from somewhere for its ports and I don't think they will turn down German cash.

    If Netherlands didn't play ball, then it would be as HoreTore suggests, it would be financially worthwhile to create another or expand Hamburg.
    Expanding Hamburg won't do any good, it still won't be able to process as much, big ships simply can't get there. Iam sure we can make an arrangement with Germany without having to put up with the EU.
    Last edited by Beskar; 02-03-2014 at 15:38. Reason: fixing own quote

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Irrelevant, and simply a standard ethnocentric claim of superiority. All the "X won't work without us!"-claims are bogus.

    German industry currently relies on Rotterdam simply because Rotterdam exists and is available. If Rotterdam didn't exist, a new harbour would be the point of export.

    Most of the Norwegian international shipping goes through Malmø. However, it is absurd to state that Norway would shut down if someone closed Malmø. We'd simply create another harbour. Just like the Germans would.
    Yeah and Norway is so very significant industry-wise. Norway is two towns sitting on oil.

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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Sure, I do not see any problem to make an arrangement. The Netherlands need the trade via Rotterdam and Amsterdam and it is also beneficial for Germany. This would work regardless if the Dutch are in or out of the Union. But I cannot see how Germany could not function w/o these harbors???

    Regarding the USA: I always wondered if I heard Brits (English or Scottish) talking about Americans. They all seem to think those are barbarians with nuke. Guess the Brits hate them more then the Europeans.
    I think the British politic is already very American. Economic ideals are similar and the it seems as if the British foreign ministers do not make any step before asking their big brother. Looking at the spy programs it seems as if they also have the same view on human rights.
    However I do not think that the US would led England in. Why change things? GB has a similar status as Puerto Rico. It follows the orders of the US government, has no right to vote for Congress or President but has the priviledge to keep the Queen.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus View Post
    Sure, I do not see any problem to make an arrangement. The Netherlands need the trade via Rotterdam and Amsterdam and it is also beneficial for Germany. This would work regardless if the Dutch are in or out of the Union. But I cannot see how Germany could not function w/o these harbors???
    You would be out of rescources for production. Rotterdam is is the gateway to your industry. All European harbours combined can't outdo Rotterdam, unloading isn't everything, it also has to be moved from there. We are in a pretty comfortable position if we say adieu to Brussels. What do you suggest you can do otherwise, making your harbours ready for the same capacity? Good luck digging to make the waterways and harbours ready. Ships need to be loaded as well where they are comming from, smaller ships, prices ^

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    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Yeah and Norway is so very significant industry-wise. Norway is two towns sitting on oil.
    Indeed.

    Which means that we have to import everything we buy for the money you pay for our oil. Which again means that Malmö is a busy port
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  30. #30

    Default Re: Bye bye, Britain

    Cameron and Co. have no intention of leaving the EU and simply can't do it, referendum or not as it would be suicidal. This is just the same old Tory party paying lip service to the Daily Mail reading "Little Englanders" in the home counties... it's the usual case of blowing some ideological hot air on the run up to the next election.

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