Bye bye, Britain

[Fragony]

We aren't very happy with the EU here either. Except for those who are happy with it.

[HoreTore]

Who will the British blame for their troubles once the EU no longer serves as the scapegoat?

Are the British mature enough to accept the reality that they have themselves to blame for their troubles?

[InsaneApache]

Nurse! He's out of bed again.

[Fragony]

The Brittish just doesn't like to be ruled by a foreign power. Neither do we, while polls can't be relied upon because the questions are suggestive, it wouldn't be that far of a strech to claim that the majority of the Dutch are sick of the EU. If we can find a buddy in the English that would be great. The German industry can't function without us so making a deal should be easy.

[Franconicus]

Are the British ruled by a foreign power? How is this?
The European Union has many problems and most of all - if not all - are caused by national governments and parties.
If anything goes wrong it is always the Union taht is blamed for it.
One example is the water supply - the Union was ordered by the national governemnts to make a regulation for that including the privatization. There had been at least two milestone reports agreed by the national governemnts before it went into public. Then, when the people showed that they were uneasy with a new regulation, all over sudden the national goverment was against it too (means had always been against it) and promised to stop it. That is the way things are going.

As stated above, if the Brits get happy without the Union, that is alright with me. They should just stop bothering the rest.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Are the British ruled by a foreign power? How is this?
The European Union has many problems and most of all - if not all - are caused by national governments and parties.
If anything goes wrong it is always the Union taht is blamed for it.
One example is the water supply - the Union was ordered by the national governemnts to make a regulation for that including the privatization. There had been at least two milestone reports agreed by the national governemnts before it went into public. Then, when the people showed that they were uneasy with a new regulation, all over sudden the national goverment was against it too (means had always been against it) and promised to stop it. That is the way things are going.

As stated above, if the Brits get happy without the Union, that is alright with me. They should just stop bothering the rest.

The European Court of Human Rights - which is tied to the EU today - has told the British Government that it MUST give prisoners the vote.

Imposing restrictions on the franchise is core right of a sovereign government - taking that away from the UK Parliament is the definition of foreign rule.

[Beskar]

The European Court of Human Rights - which is tied to the EU today - has told the British Government that it MUST give prisoners the vote.

Imposing restrictions on the franchise is core right of a sovereign government - taking that away from the UK Parliament is the definition of foreign rule.

Nothing wrong with the right to vote going to prisoners. Most are just unfortunate people or those who conducted mild crimes. Even though given the apathy in elections, the prisoners most likely won't care much.

Though I actually approve of the court of human rights as it ensures national governments safeguard the liberties of its citizens. Because of that, it is safer to travel within Europe.

Thank God for UKIP. At last a party that does what it says on the tin.

"We're a bunch of quack-pots which should avoid politics at all costs! But we hate Europe enough just to stick the middle finger at them which appeals to a bunch of people"

[HoreTore]

The European Court of Human Rights - which is tied to the EU today - has told the British Government that it MUST give prisoners the vote.

Imposing restrictions on the franchise is core right of a sovereign government - taking that away from the UK Parliament is the definition of foreign rule.

I see the EU is busy learning you barbarian savages how a proper democracy works.

Taking away the vote for prisoners is absurd.

[Kagemusha]

Maybe UK should apply to become part of USA? I think it would be interesting closure for a historical circle.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Nothing wrong with the right to vote going to prisoners. Most are just unfortunate people or those who conducted mild crimes. Even though given the apathy in elections, the prisoners most likely won't care much.

Though I actually approve of the court of human rights as it ensures national governments safeguard the liberties of its citizens. Because of that, it is safer to travel within Europe.

How about the principle that those who break the law should not elect legislators?

It's not as though we always denied them a vote - it was a conscious decision. It's also not true that most of them have only "conducted mild" crimes, you need to put a fair bit of effort in to get locked up for any significant period of time here. The majority will be robbers and burglars, drug dealers and traffickers in stolen goods, I would imagine.

I see the EU is busy learning you barbarian savages how a proper democracy works.

Taking away the vote for prisoners is absurd.

Says the man whose country hunts whales in contravention of treaty?

[gaelic cowboy]

The European Court of Human Rights - which is tied to the EU today - has told the British Government that it MUST give prisoners the vote.

Imposing restrictions on the franchise is core right of a sovereign government - taking that away from the UK Parliament is the definition of foreign rule.

this one came up before a few years back and I still think denying anyone who has reached the predetermined voting age is wrong.

bad enough your liberty is denied in prison but now ye wanna keep them from voting also to me thats dictatorship.

The Brits have always been better at spying for one thing. Not nearly so many embarrassments in that field. Then over the years there have been little things like Ultra, chobham armor, radar, sonar, just to name a few.

So it is not exactly a one way street, even if we think we came up with all that stuff.

Actually a quick wiki says they were just as useless at spying as anyone.

To many communists in there aristocracy apparently.





On the actual OP I think the EU referendum will be fought tooth and nail by the establishment.

All those british banks an other financial companies stand to lose billions if they leave.

[Pannonian]

this one came up before a few years back and I still think denying anyone who has reached the predetermined voting age is wrong.

bad enough your liberty is denied in prison but now ye wanna keep them from voting also to me thats dictatorship.

I'm not quite sure how someone sent to prison by trial by jury is the victim of a dictatorship. I know from experience that jurors can have any opinion they like, and the default tendency is to screw the establishment.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

this one came up before a few years back and I still think denying anyone who has reached the predetermined voting age is wrong.

bad enough your liberty is denied in prison but now ye wanna keep them from voting also to me thats dictatorship.

They're criminals - they broke the law, and Parliament makes the law.

That hardly feels like "dictatorship" unless you already believe that the UK is a legally corrupt state - i.e. that the people in prison should not be there because the law is unjust.

[Myth]

The Brittish just doesn't like to be ruled by a foreign power. Neither do we, while polls can't be relied upon because the questions are suggestive, it wouldn't be that far of a strech to claim that the majority of the Dutch are sick of the EU. If we can find a buddy in the English that would be great. The German industry can't function without us so making a deal should be easy.

Interesting claim. Why is it so? I'd argue that the German industry can't function without Poland. Would not have considered the Netherlands to be of much importance (industry wise).

[Rhyfelwyr]

Since Cameron is determined to incarcerate everybody for everything and for as long as possible, spy on everybody in the most invasive ways, deny the poor healthcare, remove the social security net, and generally undo the 20th Century; I am actually a little concerned about the prospect of leaving the EU. Britain does have a political culture that is distinct from what you see on the continent and that does cause issues with the EU, but to be honest I am more worried about the tendency in the major parties to increasingly turn us into another Reaganite-style America.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Since Cameron is determined to incarcerate everybody for everything and for as long as possible, spy on everybody in the most invasive ways, deny the poor healthcare, remove the social security net, and generally undo the 20th Century; I am actually a little concerned about the prospect of leaving the EU. Britain does have a political culture that is distinct from what you see on the continent and that does cause issues with the EU, but to be honest I am more worried about the tendency in the major parties to increasingly turn us into another Reaganite-style America.

I do not follow the various political happenings in the UK, Cameron may be evil incarnate -- I have not followed him enough to form or gainsay such an assessment.

If you associate the various steps listed in your first sentence with Reaganism, however, I can assure you that the "Reaganite" label you are using is a stereotype at best. Look up that administration's actions, particularly domestically, and you won't see much "reversing the 20th century" in there. US Neo-cons and TEA partyers' are far more ardent and determined on trashing everything that fails to adhere to their ideological models than Reagan ever was. Reagan believed in the doable.

[Beskar]

I do not follow the various political happenings in the UK, Cameron may be evil incarnate -- I have not followed him enough to form or gainsay such an assessment.

A lot of it is blowing hot-air.

The thing is, to most in the south of England (London), they would rather be part of the United States than be part of the European Union. The concept of the 'American Dream' did breach our shores.

Scotland, Ireland, Wales, North of England would rather be part of the European Union.

Issue is, London dictates to the rest of Britain. it is also part of the powerhouse of the conservative party too. With Scotland Independence looming, David Cameron gains by sanctioning because the Scots hate the Tories and their policies. So it would be getting rid of their biggest political bloc which would always vote against them. With the Tories in power and them most likely going to announce some big policies which Scotland opposes just before, they are bound to say 'yes' to get away.

Northern Ireland is kind of a special case as it is becoming more 'Shared' with Ireland, and there maybe a day when Northern Ireland re-unites in some form with the Republic. Wales has been more nationalistic within the last decade, from bringing a language back from the dead and forcing it mainstream in a bid to separate themselves. So they would most likely leave. Nationalistic tendencies growing in Cornwall. This then leaves the North of England more screwed over by London and the South.

[Fragony]

Interesting claim. Why is it so? I'd argue that the German industry can't function without Poland. Would not have considered the Netherlands to be of much importance (industry wise).

Logistical-wise. Rotterdam is the only harbour that is efficiecent enough to ship raw materials, and the only harbour that can take the mammoths. From Rotterdam our waterways go to Germany, as well as the railroads.

[HoreTore]

Logistical-wise. Rotterdam is the only harbour that is efficiecent enough to ship raw materials, and the only harbour that can take the mammoths. From Rotterdam our waterways go to Germany, as well as the railroads.

Irrelevant, and simply a standard ethnocentric claim of superiority. All the "X won't work without us!"-claims are bogus.

German industry currently relies on Rotterdam simply because Rotterdam exists and is available. If Rotterdam didn't exist, a new harbour would be the point of export.

Most of the Norwegian international shipping goes through Malmø. However, it is absurd to state that Norway would shut down if someone closed Malmø. We'd simply create another harbour. Just like the Germans would.

[Fragony]

Irrelevant, and simply a standard ethnocentric claim of superiority. All the "X won't work without us!"-claims are bogus.

German industry currently relies on Rotterdam simply because Rotterdam exists and is available. If Rotterdam didn't exist, a new harbour would be the point of export.

Most of the Norwegian international shipping goes through Malmø. However, it is absurd to state that Norway would shut down if someone closed Malmø. We'd simply create another harbour. Just like the Germans would.

Yeah and Norway is so very significant industry-wise. Norway is two towns sitting on oil.

[Slyspy]

British Governments are so often in the position that while closer involvement in the European project may (or may not) be a sensible national policy it isn't generally not be in their electoral interests. Rock and a hard place is not where a politician like to be. In the same way in which the Argentinian government tries to look strong by bellyaching about the Falklands and the Spanish about Gibraltar so our lot play to the home crowd by being seen to be "strong" on Europe.

Have the auditors signed off the EU's books yet?

[Beskar]

Logistical-wise. Rotterdam is the only harbour that is efficiecent enough to ship raw materials, and the only harbour that can take the mammoths. From Rotterdam our waterways go to Germany, as well as the railroads.

Looking at the figures, Fragony is correct. Rotterdam is very significant, with Antwerp second with under half. Then 3rd is Hamburg which is a 4th. Amsterdam is 4th on the list for tonnage, but it is not a container port.

However, there is a little flaw in Fragony's theory and that is if the Netherlands leave the EU, the EU would not use its ports. Simply because the Netherlands has to make its money from somewhere for its ports and I don't think they will turn down German cash.

If Netherlands didn't play ball, then it would be as HoreTore suggests, it would be financially worthwhile to create another or expand Hamburg.

[Fragony]

Looking at the figures, Fragony is correct. Rotterdam is very significant, with Antwerp second with under half. Then 3rd is Hamburg which is a 4th. Amsterdam is 4th on the list for tonnage, but it is not a container port.

However, there is a little flaw in Fragony's theory and that is if the Netherlands leave the EU, the EU would not use its ports. Simply because the Netherlands has to make its money from somewhere for its ports and I don't think they will turn down German cash.

If Netherlands didn't play ball, then it would be as HoreTore suggests, it would be financially worthwhile to create another or expand Hamburg.

Expanding Hamburg won't do any good, it still won't be able to process as much, big ships simply can't get there. Iam sure we can make an arrangement with Germany without having to put up with the EU.

[Greyblades]

Britain is experiencing a new low in public trust, we have become disillusioned, cynical, over the last decade every party has been shown not to live up to the expectations of their supporters:
Labour is incompetent and counterproductive, The liberal democrats sold themselves out, The conservatives are elitist gits padding thier offshore bank accounts with public funds, and UKip dont seem to have any idea what they will do after they get thier goals. (This scares me shedless when I consider they have an unfortunate habit of filling out thier ranks with the same breed of far right maniacs who buggered the USA.)

Point is our own politicians are smeg, we dont trust them as far as we can throw them, and yet they still look a mile better than the EU politicians because they have yet to turn Britain into another greece/ireland/spain. And now we see signs that those very EU politicians are trying to edge out our own parliament. Whether or not those signs are fictional, the very possibility that these idiots could take over from our idiots is bloody terrifying, enough to throw away an economic union in an attempt to avert it.