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  1. #1
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Munich security conference

    Security conference in Munich has just ended. There has been talk about most security issues around the world. Ukraine and Syria were hotly debated, but those issues already have their respective threads here so I wouldn't dwell on them.

    Instead, the most interesting thing to happen was a call from German president for his country to take more "active" and "decisive" role in the world, an opinion shared by German foreign minister.
    "Let us thus not turn a blind eye, not run from threats, but instead stand firm, not forget, neglect or betray universal values, but instead uphold these values together with our friends and partners," Gauck said.

    He also said the use of force after authorization by the United Nations Security Council may sometimes be necessary, but that deploying troops could only ever be one element of an overall strategy.

    "Germany will never support any purely military solution, but will approach issues with political judiciousness and explore all possible diplomatic options. However, when the last resort - sending in the Bundeswehr - comes to be discussed, Germany should not say 'no' on principle," Gauck said. "Nor should it say 'yes' unthinkingly."
    This shows that Germany is ready to officially let go of its Nazi past and all the baggage that comes with it, and no longer shy away from having an opinion on or getting involved in various affairs around the world. It could be said that Germany was on the course for some time already, since the unification, but now the time is right to proclaim it publicly. Germany was already involved in the Yugoslavian crisis, where its involvement and decision making was not the best. Their decision to recognize Croatia as independent state, when even its western allies were urging caution and restraint, arguably led to intensification of the conflict and irreversibly set the path to military confrontation.

    Their first military involvement was in Kosovo, another case where decision making wasn't most sound, as Kosovo became the hotspot for illegal activities, from human trafficking to drugs, spiced up with a bit of radical Islam.

    Their last two major decisions, to stay out of the mess that was Iraq and Afghanistan, proved correct, though.

    What I find rather interesting is that we're seeing two most belligerent nations of WW2, Germany and Japan, seemingly ready to take more active role in the world. The difference between those two is that Germany accepted what has happened and its role in it and is now basically declaring the mourning period over, although their decision to recognize independent Croatia which was lead by a basically Nazi party in disguise and whose leader was known for his denial of the Holocaust and other crimes committed by fascists during WW2 is a blemish on their record. Japan, on the other hand, didn't quite deal with its past, and is displaying more nationalism than healthy with their decision to either ignore or "forget" about their actions during the war.

    What is your opinion of this and how will it affect the world?

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  2. #2
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Munich security conference

    A rally on security for Europe, held in Munich and concluding that Germany should be more active.

    Haven't we been through this before?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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  3. #3
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Munich security conference

    Yeah, didn't really think 'bout that. They could have at least changed the venue.

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    Default Re: Munich security conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Yeah, didn't really think 'bout that. They could have at least changed the venue.
    I hope the next event is a conference on legal reform held in Nürnberg.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Munich security conference

    The Munich Security Conference is a yearly event.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Security_Conference

    Germany sent troops to Afghanistan.

    They also said about 3 years ago that they had cut forces enough. Since then they have reduced further and closed more facilities. And that was before they made a coalition with the SPD.

    Sounds like a lot of noise and more of the same to me. I will wait to see if anything actually comes of it.


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  6. #6
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Munich security conference

    What was the discussion vis-a-vis NATO?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  7. #7
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Munich security conference

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    A rally on security for Europe, held in Munich and concluding that Germany should be more active.

    Haven't we been through this before?
    Yes security in our time.

    The idea of holding a security conference where Nazis held rallies and the Olympic Games massacre happened is ironic indeed. I thought conventional wisdom stated that Germans don't have a sense of humor, at least the Stazi influence has added irony to the toolset.
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  8. #8
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Munich security conference

    I dunno.Fisherking is right in that we reduced the army in size, but at the same time the attempt is to make it more mobile for outside engagements and international missions. If you want to have 5000 tanks and then move them all to Afghanistan, you have to invest a lot into transports. Or you reduce the number of tanks and buy transports for the money you save.

    On the other hand, not every currently available technology is really suited for that. Our Tiger helicopter was designed purely with anti-tank operations in mind and does not have a rotating gun as a result. I don't know why we didn't order some of the french versions once we found out that was a silly idea but I guess such things cannot be changed so easily.

    We also didn't participate in Libya, something a lot of people saw as a mistake. I could laugh though when France and the UK ran out of laser guided bombs and had to get the US involved. It's funny because they are both quite more militarily engaged than we are, or so I thought. I know the UK has been downsizing the navy for a while but that both together would run out of LGBs....I digress...

    So what's the verdict on Austria and Italy? Do they just always get away easy because they never really had a capable military?


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  9. #9
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Munich security conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    So what's the verdict on Austria and Italy? Do they just always get away easy because they never really had a capable military?
    Austria is a part of Germany and ol' Mussolini didn't send the jews to the gas chambers...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  10. #10
    Member Member GenosseGeneral's Avatar
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    Default Re: Munich security conference

    Berlin is certainly not a better place ;)
    But whatever Gauck said, it does very likely not express the German public's opinion, as reactions towards his statement and similar ones made earlier by minister of foreign affairs Steinmeier as well minister of defence von der Leyen were received extremely negatively.
    Military interventions are extremely unpopular here and this will unlikely change through a statement by our president, especially as the German president is only a symbolic head of state without any power.
    Do not expect Germany to take responsibility any time soon.

  11. #11
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Munich security conference

    Military intervention =/= taking responsibilty

    Taking responsibilty is doing the right thing after the chaos of miltary intervention ie the Marshall Plan
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  12. #12
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Munich security conference

    Will they fund it?

    Sure Germany in particular and the EU in general can take a more decisive role in world affairs. This comes with a price tag. You do not get to do that and keep the Military spending at 1% levels.

    Moreover, the economic kerfluffles associated with Greece, Portugal and others suggest that EU economics are not a smoothly oiled machine.

    Will they fund it despite such constraints?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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