Munich security conference

[Papewaio]

A rally on security for Europe, held in Munich and concluding that Germany should be more active.

Haven't we been through this before?

Yes security in our time.

The idea of holding a security conference where Nazis held rallies and the Olympic Games massacre happened is ironic indeed. I thought conventional wisdom stated that Germans don't have a sense of humor, at least the Stazi influence has added irony to the toolset.

[Husar]

I dunno.Fisherking is right in that we reduced the army in size, but at the same time the attempt is to make it more mobile for outside engagements and international missions. If you want to have 5000 tanks and then move them all to Afghanistan, you have to invest a lot into transports. Or you reduce the number of tanks and buy transports for the money you save.

On the other hand, not every currently available technology is really suited for that. Our Tiger helicopter was designed purely with anti-tank operations in mind and does not have a rotating gun as a result. I don't know why we didn't order some of the french versions once we found out that was a silly idea but I guess such things cannot be changed so easily.

We also didn't participate in Libya, something a lot of people saw as a mistake. I could laugh though when France and the UK ran out of laser guided bombs and had to get the US involved. It's funny because they are both quite more militarily engaged than we are, or so I thought. I know the UK has been downsizing the navy for a while but that both together would run out of LGBs....I digress...

So what's the verdict on Austria and Italy? Do they just always get away easy because they never really had a capable military?

[HoreTore]

So what's the verdict on Austria and Italy? Do they just always get away easy because they never really had a capable military?

Austria is a part of Germany and ol' Mussolini didn't send the jews to the gas chambers...

[GenosseGeneral]

Berlin is certainly not a better place ;)
But whatever Gauck said, it does very likely not express the German public's opinion, as reactions towards his statement and similar ones made earlier by minister of foreign affairs Steinmeier as well minister of defence von der Leyen were received extremely negatively.
Military interventions are extremely unpopular here and this will unlikely change through a statement by our president, especially as the German president is only a symbolic head of state without any power.
Do not expect Germany to take responsibility any time soon.

[Papewaio]

Military intervention =/= taking responsibilty

Taking responsibilty is doing the right thing after the chaos of miltary intervention ie the Marshall Plan

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Will they fund it?

Sure Germany in particular and the EU in general can take a more decisive role in world affairs. This comes with a price tag. You do not get to do that and keep the Military spending at 1% levels.

Moreover, the economic kerfluffles associated with Greece, Portugal and others suggest that EU economics are not a smoothly oiled machine.

Will they fund it despite such constraints?

[PanzerJaeger]

Yeah, the results of the conference would be far more interesting if any of the European 'powers' actually had any military power to speak of. I'm also reminded of the missile fiasco during the Libya adventure, which was both hysterical and telling in equal measure.

[Brenus]

“Their decision to recognize Croatia as independent state” and to provide the military equipment from the Former East-Germany the Croats were familiar with, allowing the Croats in 2 years to go from Home Defense to fully modern army able to launch 3 major offensives and ethnic cleansings, coordination air strike (so much for deny fly zones), heli-assaults (in Bosnia, against international laws) to open the gates of Knin, and pushing on the road more than 100,000 Serbs, burning more than 4,000 houses.
So it became the Independent State of Croatia. Nicely done, Sarmartian.

[Sarmatian]

Yeah, the results of the conference would be far more interesting if any of the European 'powers' actually had any military power to speak of. I'm also reminded of the missile fiasco during the Libya adventure, which was both hysterical and telling in equal measure.

Why does it have to be US level of power projection? Germany has a small, but modern army, well supplied and the industrial ability to keep it running at peak efficiency, and even though their industrial base is bigger than UK's or France's, their level of involvement is much, much smaller.

They don't expect to do it alone, but in concert with others, within NATO.

The big thing isn't really assessing their power projection capabilities, though. The shift in political thought is what's important. Since WW2, they were refusing to even have an opinion. After the unification, they started to meddle, but mostly under the guise of sever human rights violations. So, it's quite a leap.

[GenosseGeneral]

Why does it have to be US level of power projection? Germany has a small, but modern army, well supplied and the industrial ability to keep it running at peak efficiency, and even though their industrial base is bigger than UK's or France's, their level of involvement is much, much smaller.

In fact, we don't. The German army is not efficient and not well supplied. Most parts are still structured, as if there were 6000 Soviet tanks at our border. Currently, it has a size of about 250.000, out of these one division is supposed to be capable of actual power projection (in the sense of fighting abroad). With our current missions in Afghanistan, Kosovo and minor contingents at other places, there are roughly about 12.000 soldiers abroad, yet the army is considered overallocated.
In terms of equipment, while Germany produces some highly sophisticated military technology, submarines and self-propelled howitzers are not necessary in Afghanistan. They do not buy, what they need right now but what they ordered under a contract from the 90ties because it is ready for delivery finally, up to the point that deployed soldiers buy a lot of their equipment themselves. And in Afghanistan, for instance, the German army is dependent on American Medevacs, as its own choppers are from the 60s and the NH90, which is supposed to replace them, should have been delivered years ago.
So as long as there is a) no change in overall German mentality and b) not an army reform making the army logistically and equipment-wise capable of prolonged operations abroad, this is all just rhethorics.
And in the end, that is probably not all to bad. I have my doubts, that invading Iraq has made my life more secure.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Why does it have to be US level of power projection? Germany has a small, but modern army, well supplied and the industrial ability to keep it running at peak efficiency, and even though their industrial base is bigger than UK's or France's, their level of involvement is much, much smaller.

They don't expect to do it alone, but in concert with others, within NATO.

The big thing isn't really assessing their power projection capabilities, though. The shift in political thought is what's important. Since WW2, they were refusing to even have an opinion. After the unification, they started to meddle, but mostly under the guise of sever human rights violations. So, it's quite a leap.

Doesn't have to be at that level. However, deployable forces DO translate to leverage (and not simply in military terms). Germany, as GG notes in the post following that to which I am responding, correctly points out that they really don't have much in the way of deployable force. Sadly, there are still regions of the world where economic sanctions and political shunning will not effect regime change or cause some government to alter a loathsome policy stance. At the present time, Germany lacks the other "suasory" means that might work in such situations.

Maybe the don't need it at all. However, as I have suggested above, if they wish to increase their leverage, some of that added leverage will require the development of more and more readily deployable forces along with the will to have some of them killed in squalid dusty places. Sadly, that is the currency of power.

[Furunculus]

Will they fund it?

Sure Germany in particular and the EU in general can take a more decisive role in world affairs. This comes with a price tag. You do not get to do that and keep the Military spending at 1% levels.

Moreover, the economic kerfluffles associated with Greece, Portugal and others suggest that EU economics are not a smoothly oiled machine.

Will they fund it despite such constraints?

And after they fund it, will they actually [use] it?