How Long is Long Enough?

[ReluctantSamurai]

There are more Types of beer in Bavaria than most other places have breweries. Even the hyper critical should be able to find beer they like, or stay damn drunk for a few days trying.

Here's an idea....why not invite Chinese and Japanese leaders to a big party and serve.....Bavarian beer

The flow of hate comes while China is building up its military, leaving its neighbors on edge. Beijing will spend $148 billion on its military this year, up from $139 billion in 2013. It launched its first aircraft carrier in 2012, and is building a fleet of submarines that it hopes will outnumber the American fleet.

Not much good is going to come from this.....

[Montmorency]

Not much good is going to come from this

I remember doing some research back in 2010; I discovered that in the past decade, China's defense budget had increased by over 500%, in constant USD.

Now, that's working with the stated budget. Going by estimates of the black budget for defence, it was more like 750%.

So, in the past 15 years China's defence spending has increased anywhere from 500-1000% - impressive. You don't spend like that just for show.

Or maybe you do?

[Montmorency]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...udget_2012.png

Going by that graph, which perhaps uses low estimates, and the figure you quoted, it seems that it could even be something like 1500%-2000%!

Damn it China, at this rate you're going to ruin it for people who complain that the US spends as much as the next X countries or whatever...

[Brenus]

I had a long thought about this subject. And I just realised that the blame others Nations or populations for not forgetting or forgiving is a little bit odd.
I am a French leaving in UK and there is not one year without a TV series or show about the war against the French, celebration of Waterloo, Trafalgar (2 commemorations in 2005) or Agincourt. One of the most sold newspapers in UK is openly Francophobic. So, the perpetuation of certain memory is not foreign to our societies.
Then, we are not very comfortable as well with our past crimes. We debate a lot in this forum about History and who start what (there is again a thread about who start WW1) and positions are still touchy.
I, as an individual, never experiment a invasion or destruction on my country. However, I still feel anger when I see on a documentary the German Troops parading in Paris in 1940, and the German population celebrating Hitler for the revenge. Not that I will start a new war against Germany or Germans, but the feeling is still there. And campaigns like the “cheese-eater surrendering monkeys” from the recent past by the US and UK media didn’t help. And do note that France never fought against the USA (ok, a lot against UK). So the hate against the French in the USA is not based on real things but on a perception built by association with the UK history by media and politicians (as even Bush had to concede in a vain try to cure what his administration started, France was historically the first ally of the USA even before they existed).
So, can we blame the Chinese who really suffered of real aggression and rapes and slaughters from the Japanese to still have strong feeling against Japan? What time is needed to heal the wounds? From my French experience in UK, it will be never done as much it can be used to canalise and divert the population’s attention from real problems within the country, or when it can be used to raise the moral of a country…

[Pannonian]

I had a long thought about this subject. And I just realised that the blame others Nations or populations for not forgetting or forgiving is a little bit odd.
I am a French leaving in UK and there is not one year without a TV series or show about the war against the French, celebration of Waterloo, Trafalgar (2 commemorations in 2005) or Agincourt. One of the most sold newspapers in UK is openly Francophobic. So, the perpetuation of certain memory is not foreign to our societies.

The so-called Francophobia isn't really vitriolic though. It's more of a sporting rivalry, just that it goes back a few more years than most. You don't get Englishmen ranting about atrocities committed by the French, or anything of that sort. Just respond with banter in the same vein, reeling off a list of French victories against the English. Although on the military front there aren't many things that hit the English nerve (since we've rarely been invaded), and while combined American-French victories are probably closest to that, they don't come close to the kind of ammunition that Brits have against the French (eg. Syria 1941 - the last British victory over the French, or Mers el-Kebir 1940, the last British naval victory over the French, or even Torch 1942, the last American victory over the French).

[Sarmatian]

It is an interesting point, though, precisely because it is more of a rivalry than true hatred. France and Britain have been allies for more than a hundred years. German occupation of France was relatively mild, at least compared to German occupation of Russia, Poland or Yugoslavia and Japanese occupation of China. That is coupled with the fact that there has been a pretty strong Franco-German alliance in the last 50 years. Maybe it wasn't always officially recognized as such, but in terms of things done, Germany and France has been each other's primary ally for the last half of century. Even though Americans often emphasize the ferocity of their war against Japan and inhuman conditions in which it was fought, let's face it, compared to fighting in eastern Europe or China, it was nothing out of the ordinary, one could say even it was actually pretty tame.

All that being said, there is still at least uneasiness about it. The Chinese and Korean reaction to recent Japanese actions are definitely more understandable in the light.

[Brenus]

“You don't get Englishmen ranting about atrocities committed by the French, or anything of that sort. Just respond with banter in the same vein, reeling off a list of French victories against the English. Although on the military front there aren't many things that hit the English nerve (since we've rarely been invaded),).”
Demo of what I said: Celebration by English of victories against the French. I could now list the impressive victories against the English it would just be another demo. We don’t think that time is gone and we have let it go. To be frank, my first reaction towards this answer was exactly this, then I realised what I was about to do. Due to the National Identity Building, the English really believed they won the 100 years’ war in Agincourt. When you say “and while combined American-French victories are probably closest to that, they don't come close to the kind of ammunition that Brits have against the French (eg. Syria 1941 - the last British victory over the French, or Mers el-Kebir 1940, the last British naval victory over the French, or even Torch 1942, the last American victory over the French” it is a denial of one of the greatest lost of territory in History. Just do note that the French (Vichy) won against the British Fleet in Dakar (sorry, too much to resist) (I am ashamed). For the anecdote, my former Father-in Law was a Free French Navy, fighting with the Royal Navy at the time. The victory of the Vichy French against the English Fleet calmed down the resentment of the Free French against the Royal Navy. Funny how we humans are working...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It is an interesting point, though, precisely because it is more of a rivalry than true hatred. France and Britain have been allies for more than a hundred years. German occupation of France was relatively mild, at least compared to German occupation of Russia, Poland or Yugoslavia and Japanese occupation of China. That is coupled with the fact that there has been a pretty strong Franco-German alliance in the last 50 years. Maybe it wasn't always officially recognized as such, but in terms of things done, Germany and France has been each other's primary ally for the last half of century. Even though Americans often emphasize the ferocity of their war against Japan and inhuman conditions in which it was fought, let's face it, compared to fighting in eastern Europe or China, it was nothing out of the ordinary, one could say even it was actually pretty tame.

All that being said, there is still at least uneasiness about it. The Chinese and Korean reaction to recent Japanese actions are definitely more understandable in the light.

What the Japanese did during the fall of Singapore set the tone for how they were seen throughout the war. I don't think even the Germans and Russians made it a matter of policy to kill the wounded in their hospital beds.

Having said that - all those Japanese soldiers are dead now.

Having said that, I don't understand the whole thing about East Asian cultures and ancestors, so maybe there the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons.

[Strike For The South]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...udget_2012.png

Going by that graph, which perhaps uses low estimates, and the figure you quoted, it seems that it could even be something like 1500%-2000%!

Damn it China, at this rate you're going to ruin it for people who complain that the US spends as much as the next X countries or whatever...

Blue water navy