1-Islam Women And Sex (2nd Edition)

[Fragony]

Gays get beaten up, it's just how it is, nothing we can do and why should we.

Kidding me, it is utterly unacceptable that gays get beaten up. It's utterly unacceptible that women are harassed. Public secret: gay sex is very normal among muslim youth, and they aren't even gay. Dutch girls don't want them, and their own is kinda complicated because of what some people respect.

Sexual frustration, directed at women and gays.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Oy vey!

[Vuk]

Darn, how boring. Judging by the title of this thread I thought it was going to be about something else entirely.

[Husar]

Kidding me, it is utterly unacceptable that gays get beaten up. It's utterly unacceptible that women are harassed. Public secret: gay sex is very normal among muslim youth, and they aren't even gay. Dutch girls don't want them, and their own is kinda complicated because of what some people respect.

Sexual frustration, directed at women and gays.

It's just how it is, the international racist conservatism and their elephant who looks like a donkey mouse of a leader want it so. The gays will never like our values or try to adapt, it just doesn't work, nothing we can do.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Friend dont you think the thread and your post is going Off-Topic?!...............

Is it, are you up for a challenge. You get a week extra-ultra free use of an appartment a friend of mine has in Amsterdam, and you bring a friend. Downside to it is that I will tell everyone you are a gay couple. How do you think your week is going to look like?

LOL !!!!! can i be in challenge despite we are somehow allies?! please just invite me to your country and with normal use is accepted too!! Thanks!!

And I tried to explain to you that this assessment of the forum's knowledge of Islam is incorrect.

i meant the whole 1st world specially the westerns like canada & USA & Europe.......not only this forum
anyway You should answer Fragony............what say you HoreTore do you accept a challenge ?!!

[Rhyfelwyr]

OK, so it seems like everybody in this thread agrees that a fundamentalist interpretation of the Koran would cause a lot of violence and oppression towards women in a given society.

To try and rescue the discussion here, how about this - we consider how far the Islamic world is still driven by the Koran, and whether or not it is possible for it to free itself from the shackles of the Koran.

Personally I think that right now the Islamic world is going through something of a Protestant Reformation. Ease of travel and communication has allowed for a sense of global Islamic brotherhood to replace the old tribalism and local ethnic squabbles that previously defined politics in the region. Hence why there are so any international Muhijadeen in Syria, Somalia and the like. The mass spreading of literacy and education has fostered a generation able to read the Koran and the Hadiths for themselves (you could say the internet is their printing press), without the ability to contextualise it in the way that dedicated scholars could. Hence why so many of al-Qaeda types are middle-class university graduates. Discontent with both the secular and religious establishment has fostered a sort of grassroots radicalism that has naturally thrived in the turmoil of recent revolutions and civil wars. All these trends tend towards a particularly fundamentalist and populist vision of Islam - hence why women are increasingly faring poorly in much of the Islamic world.

Thoughts?

[rvg]

Thoughts?

Remove kebab before kebab removes you.

[Fragony]

Nice in your face docu
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments

[Empire*Of*Media]

OK, so it seems like everybody in this thread agrees that a fundamentalist interpretation of the Koran would cause a lot of violence and oppression towards women in a given society.

To try and rescue the discussion here, how about this - we consider how far the Islamic world is still driven by the Koran, and whether or not it is possible for it to free itself from the shackles of the Koran.

Personally I think that right now the Islamic world is going through something of a Protestant Reformation. Ease of travel and communication has allowed for a sense of global Islamic brotherhood to replace the old tribalism and local ethnic squabbles that previously defined politics in the region. Hence why there are so any international Muhijadeen in Syria, Somalia and the like. The mass spreading of literacy and education has fostered a generation able to read the Koran and the Hadiths for themselves (you could say the internet is their printing press), without the ability to contextualise it in the way that dedicated scholars could. Hence why so many of al-Qaeda types are middle-class university graduates. Discontent with both the secular and religious establishment has fostered a sort of grassroots radicalism that has naturally thrived in the turmoil of recent revolutions and civil wars. All these trends tend towards a particularly fundamentalist and populist vision of Islam - hence why women are increasingly faring poorly in much of the Islamic world.

Thoughts?

most of yours is right but

i see you all looking to Islam as your westerns culture (except Fragony)
i dont think we have PROTESTANT islam! PROTESTANT in christian happened because martin luther did not want to blindly believe those catholic priests,with the archbishops and cardinal's corruption, and they made laws which was not in Christ mind! so PROTESTANTISM happened because people too were tired of them!

but Islam is different in islam there is no edition in the shariah and Quran what has said and written its the unlimited perfect truth and came from Allah (i dont call it god) so you cant change Islam or even Update it!

those things you said its because some are not fundamentalists are just Normal Muslims and are not fundamentalist for YOU not their FAMILY!!

we must not look Islam & Judaism as this softness !!

[Ironside]

most of yours is right but

i see you all looking to Islam as your westerns culture (except Fragony)
i dont think we have PROTESTANT islam! PROTESTANT in christian happened because martin luther did not want to blindly believe those catholic priests,with the archbishops and cardinal's corruption, and they made laws which was not in Christ mind! so PROTESTANTISM happened because people too were tired of them!

but Islam is different in islam there is no edition in the shariah and Quran what has said and written its the unlimited perfect truth and came from Allah (i dont call it god) so you cant change Islam or even Update it!

those things you said its because some are not fundamentalists are just Normal Muslims and are not fundamentalist for YOU not their FAMILY!!

we must not look Islam & Judaism as this softness !!

It's interesting that you give the recent fundamentalist stance as a core value in Islam.

To give an example. The Talibans blew up some huge Buddhist statues in 2001 because of idolism. That's kind of a good example of the intolerance of the Talibans.
Thing is, that they were the first muslims in about 1300 years that came to that conclusion and idolism has always been seen as bad according to the Koran. Are you going to claim that it took them 1300 years to discover that obvious core value?

You can compare with the fundamentalist movements of Christianity in the US (I'm sure there's other places that has them as well, the US ones are simply more publically known). Snake handling and not dying from it is proof that you're in God's grace for example (thanks to a literal interpretation of one passage in the whole Bible).
Also, there's passages like the second ammendment, from the US constitution "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". It's even intended to be red literally, but even there, there's alot up for interpretation (a minor one is to determine what arms means. A bazooka? A tank? A LMG is a "small arm". We had the nuclear arms race during the cold war. There's suitcase nukes that you can bear).

And at the very least, new technologies needs to be interpretated through the Koran. Ergo, eveyone dealing with this with a tempered mind will realise that even a literal interpretation isn't the unlimited perfect truth and anyone stating that has an agenda. And by some mysterious reason, most fundamentalists are prone to the strict interpretation that gives them power, rather than a generous interpretation. It's almost like the have an agenda and is driven by self interest.

Rhyfelwyr, something to add. The origin of funtamentalistic Islam was about 1900 iirc. Basically the Arab world came to the conclusion that they were backwater places at the time and tried to decide why that was. One group went secular (Islam is holding us back) and the other group fundmentalistic (we have fallen from the true path). The secular group won (mostly) and established secular dictorships. The fundamentalist groups remained in the opposition, so when the secular dictorships weakened/fell they were already in place to take power.

[Rhyfelwyr]

@Hax: good points, I was just throwing things out as an idea; you are better placed to know than me.

Rhyfelwyr, something to add. The origin of funtamentalistic Islam was about 1900 iirc. Basically the Arab world came to the conclusion that they were backwater places at the time and tried to decide why that was. One group went secular (Islam is holding us back) and the other group fundmentalistic (we have fallen from the true path). The secular group won (mostly) and established secular dictorships. The fundamentalist groups remained in the opposition, so when the secular dictorships weakened/fell they were already in place to take power.

I don't think it is true that fundamentalist Islam emerged only in 1900 AD. Fundamentalism has ebbed and flowed continually throughout Islam's history. Muhammad himself was a puritanical warrior-prophet, and well... the earliest Muslims were obviously fundamentalists since they followed the fundamental principles Muhammad set down. When the Abbasids overthrew the Umayyads a large part of their justification was on returning to some sort of golden age of Islamic morality. The Murabitun of the medieval period were notoriously fundamentalist and banned music, imposed strict Islamic dress and segregation and trashed much of the vibrant culture that existed in Ghana and Andalusia prior to their excursions. Certain Fatimid rulers were also strongly opposed to idolatry (most notably this guy) and trashed Christian and Jewish places of worship in Jerusalem and forced Jews to wear decorative calves to remind them of Aaron's idolatry.

If you are talking about modern fundamentalism, then yes that emerged with the Wahhabi movement, but that is only a small part of the fundamentalist story in Islamic history.

[Hax]

I started typing a reply to Rhyfelwyr's post yesterday evening, but I didn't get the chance to finish it. I haven't read the other responses yet.

I agree with most of what you outlined in your post, but I think your approach is a bit flawed here and there.

Muhijadeen

Mujahideen(from Cl. Arabic مجاهدین; mujâhidîn)

The mass spreading of literacy and education has fostered a generation able to read the Koran and the Hadiths for themselves

I disagree. Quranic schools have been around for ages, so male literacy in the Arab-Muslim world has always been pretty high (as learning was not restricted to just to clerics) and the Quran was more accessible to Arabic-speaking Muslims than the Bible was to European Christians (seeing how Classical Arabic continued to influence the spoken variants of Arabic throughout the centuries).

To try and rescue the discussion here, how about this - we consider how far the Islamic world is still driven by the Koran, and whether or not it is possible for it to free itself from the shackles of the Koran.

I think this is this most important issue right now. We are pretty much all aware of the different legislative interpretations of the Quran and their respective jurisprudential schools (cf. madhhab), but what I think is lacking in most Islamic studies departments is a more sociological-anthropological approach to actual Muslim belief: recording and analysing statements made by religious scholars is definitely useful and interesting, but it doesn't necessarily reflect what Muslims actually believe​.

Ease of travel and communication has allowed for a sense of global Islamic brotherhood to replace the old tribalism and local ethnic squabbles that previously defined politics in the region.

Hmm, I think you're only half-right here. A sense of global community and brotherhood has always existed in the Islamic world; and although it is true that with modern methods of transportation globalisation has increased, but it had always been a part of Islamic culture (e.g., the pilgrimage to Mecca). When reading travelogues from medieval Muslim travelers, it's very evident that people were already moving from place to place.

Make no mistake, tribal allegiances still play an incredibly important role. Also, ethnic struggles didn't really play that big a role until the 19th century.

Hence why so many of al-Qaeda types are middle-class university graduates. Discontent with both the secular and religious establishment has fostered a sort of grassroots radicalism that has naturally thrived in the turmoil of recent revolutions and civil wars.

This.

But in all, I think it's not entirely correct to compare recent evolutions in Islam with the Protestant Reformation. There may be some similarities, but I feel that it would be more fruitful to analyse these evolutions in their own context.

[Fragony]

And what's the purpose of the muhajideen Hax. There are various degrees of being a mujahideen, those who spread islam by word and those who spread it with violence. But the purpose is the same. Violence takes presedence as the the importance of verses and the hadith are reversed chronologcally in importance. So a later verse oudoes an older one.

[Empire*Of*Media]

i agree with Fragony!

beside i clearly want you hax and ironside. in a simple word you agree with islam (not muslims islam itself in quran and hadiths) or not or something else?!


(ah god thanks here is better at least! in twcenter they only focused on WHY i have BOLDED some words!! and after sometime they closed the thread!! this is Democracy & freedom of speech!!)

[Sarmatian]

what say you HoreTore do you accept a challenge ?!!

I have another challenge for you two. I will send you and Fragony to a mostly Christian country, in purely Christian neighbourhood and tell everyone you're gay. How about that?

[Fragony]

I have another challenge for you two. I will send you and Fragony to a mostly Christian country, in purely Christian neighbourhood and tell everyone you're gay. How about that?

Dude I was raised in the Dutch biblebelt, hardcore thoushaltnot protestants. Our neighbours were gay.

[Sarmatian]

Dude I was raised in the Dutch biblebelt, hardcore thoushaltnot protestants. Our neighbours were gay.

Do you really believe Netherlands is what I had in mind?

[Fragony]

Do you really believe Netherlands is what I had in mind?

Would be if you knew what the Dutch biblebelt is like. It's still better to be gay in the Dutch biblebelt than let's say, Amsterdam, much less people with culture who are an enrichment.

Bad idea anyhow, when our Kurdish friend is back in Iran he will be hanged.

[HoreTore]

nvm.