How Long is Long Enough?

[ReluctantSamurai]

It's been nearly 70 yrs since the hostilities of WWII ended, and most of the major combatants, some who were mortal enemies, have made their peace and moved on. Some surviving US vets have made the pilgrimage to Iwo Jima and shared memories and comradie with former IJA vets, yet both were once engaged in some of the most brutal and inhuman combat of the war. Similar stories can be found amongst former ETO combatants of Germany, USA, UK, and the Soviet Union.

So why, after all this time, can the Chinese and Japanese not reach that place of letting go of past atrocities committed by people long dead, and move on?

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25411700

Ma Licheng, who used to write for China's state-owned People's Daily newspaper, says he has counted 25 apologies from Japan to China overall. But none of these - nor Japan's financial aid to China, amounting to 3,650bn yen ($35.7bn; £21.8bn) over the years - have been covered in the Chinese media, he says, or taught to children at school.

"What Japan did in China during the war was horrible," Ma wrote in his book Beyond Apologies. "But demanding that they kneel on the ground is pointless. The wording of the Japanese apologies may not seem enough to us, but to them, they were a huge step so we have to accept them and move on."

Thoughts?

[Sarmatian]

I believe they were close to letting it go, but the recent overlapping claims, Abe's visit to controversial shrine and general nationalistic tendencies are heating things up needlessly.

[rajpoot]

I believe they were close to letting it go, but the recent overlapping claims...are heating things up needlessly.

This.
I don't know if China's agenda is as crude as it appears but they seem to have a very hypocritical approach (even more so than other nations) towards placing claims and military development.
They've been on loggerheads with Japan, specially since of late Japan has increased its defence budget, which I believe is in direct response to China trying to strongarm its way in SE Asia.
In such a situation China just needs reasons to condemn Japan, to try and show them down in the international community.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Firstly, this being Valentine's day, and the "world politics" categorizer not appearing on the off topic forum group, I was expecting an ENTIRELY different thread....


I also think we would have a hard time, aside from Israel/Palestine, finding a conflict that was both that protracted and that vicious. It was all of the atrocity of the Eastern Front in the West, but it started 10 years earlier and lasted a few months longer. Add into that the million plus Chinese casualties -- er volunteer casualties -- in Korea (which I suspect China considers a ramification of the Japanese conquest of that region and its post-war demarcation) and you see a long trail of grievances China perceives. Japanese sentiment -- whatever we did, we have atoned as the only nation ever to be actively nuked; having virtually all of out cities eradicated; and having our cultures and norms shattered and re-made -- has trended towards "let's move on." The sentiments do not match.

Plus, while not expert on Asiatic languages, I am given to understand that both languages delineate two terms for people: Chinese/Japanese as a self referent and "barbarian" for other referent. Not a good start.

[Greyblades]

What doesnt help is that, while japan's atrocities were arguably greater than nazi germany's, they were never shamed for it while occuped by the americans and never gained the stigma germans have now about hyper-nationalism. Apparantly japan consider thier ancestors sacred and shaming them would have made the american occupation more difficult.
Because of this the japanese, thier politicians and media in particular, have a disconserting habit of glossing over thier war atrocities, or even glorifying it, which understandably does little good for thier post war relations.

[Sp4]

Came expecting a discussion about penis sizes, left disappointed.

[Fisherking]

What doesnt help is that, while japan's atrocities were arguably greater than nazi germany's, they were never shamed for it while occuped by the americans and never gained the stigma germans have now about hyper-nationalism. Apparantly japan consider thier ancestors sacred and shaming them would have made the american occupation more difficult.
Because of this the japanese, thier politicians and media in particular, have a disconserting habit of glossing over thier war atrocities, or even glorifying it, which understandably does little good for thier post war relations.

There is truth in what you say but the issue is one of the Chinese Government.

Japan is turning into their bugbear. It is a convenient distraction and supports expansionist policies.

China has some 500 million people living in new found prosperity in its cities but it still has more than 800 million living in the countryside in absolute poverty. It is doing little to make their lives better and in many way they are making it worse.

Putting a focus on an evil neighbor and how they should be punished takes a little pressure off of themselves. China has had a number of scandals that involve high government officials or their families. Dredging up old wounds from the past is just a good way to drop out of the daily topic of discussion and instill a bit of nationalist fervor for good measure.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Firstly, this being Valentine's day, and the "world politics" categorizer not appearing on the off topic forum group, I was expecting an ENTIRELY different thread....

Came expecting a discussion about penis sizes, left disappointed.

Don't need to tell you where you can find those.....



But in a sense, it is about "size":

I believe is in direct response to China trying to strongarm its way in SE Asia. In such a situation China just needs reasons to condemn Japan, to try and show them down in the international community.

Japan is turning into their bugbear. It is a convenient distraction and supports expansionist policies.

I think proximity has much to do with it, as well as Japan's long-held view that SE Asia was their "neck of the woods" {...the SE Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere of WWII vintage, anyone}

Racism is a factor...Japan long considered the Chinese and Koreans as inferiors...

japan's atrocities were arguably greater than nazi germany's

Notsure this is the case. The Japanese certainly made no bones about what they did...the Germans were more secretive and the true extent of the Holocaust was not revealed until the wars' end. The Allies certainly had their share...the fire-bombing of Japanese cities, Dresden, the "Bombs"...{all well debated topics, but not here, please}

Because of this the japanese, thier politicians and media in particular, have a disconserting habit of glossing over thier war atrocities, or even glorifying it, which understandably does little good for thier post war relations.

Could you give examples of this? as I am not aware of any Japanese habit for glossing over events like Nanking, Bataan, Manila, etc.....

[Greyblades]

Notsure this is the case. The Japanese certainly made no bones about what they did...the Germans were more secretive and the true extent of the Holocaust was not revealed until the wars' end. The Allies certainly had their share...the fire-bombing of Japanese cities, Dresden, the "Bombs"...{all well debated topics, but not here, please}

When I said they were greater I was thinking more in a numbers definition. As wikipedia so nicely provides:

Historian Chalmers Johnson has written that:

It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians (i.e. Soviet citizens); the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as (forced) prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not the Soviet Union) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; (by comparison) the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%.[39]

It is of course hard to quantify atrocity, numbers dont really help much, if a city was nuked and 6 million died in the blast it wouldnt be equal to the holocaust just because it was of similar size. 6 Million killed in an instant, with barely a moment spent in pain before death, it's not the same as 6 million being hunted down, worked to near death before being murdered in gas chambers, all spread over a 3-7 year period. But when I look at some of the horrors of the pacific theater; that of decapitations, burying people alive, using chemical weapons, torturing POWs, cannibalism, it starts to look rather similar.

Could you give examples of this? as I am not aware of any Japanese habit for glossing over events like Nanking, Bataan, Manila, etc.....

I fear you may have caught me in a case of hyperbole, while there are certainly examples of japanese people or organizations attempting to gloss over the atrocities, for example:
http://animestop.info/comfort-women-...t-prostitutes/
http://animestop.info/ishihara-our-k...-it-for-money/
They all come from the right wing fringe groups of the japanese political spectrum which, now that I think about it, is not a valid a reason to generalize about the entire culture. If it was; I could say that the americans have a unfortunate habit of regretting how the civil war freed the slaves, just from what Rush Limbaugh spews on his show every day.
They exist, much like the BNP, but like the BNP in Britain the influence of these radicals is not large enough to judge the country by and I was wrong to do so here.

Though it is somewhat disconcerting that the mayor in the second example was still elected in the capital 4 times in a row in spite of his somewhat "politically incorrect" views. The more I read about the man the more I think the comparison to rush limbaugh is appropriate

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...They all come from the right wing fringe groups of the japanese political spectrum which, now that I think about it, is not a valid a reason to generalize about the entire culture. If it was; I could say that the americans have a unfortunate habit of regretting how the civil war freed the slaves, just from what Rush Limbaugh spews on his show every day.
They exist, much like the BNP, but like the BNP in Britain the influence of these radicals is not large enough to judge the country by and I was wrong to do so here.

Though it is somewhat disconcerting that the mayor in the second example was still elected in the capital 4 times in a row in spite of his somewhat "politically incorrect" views. The more I read about the man the more I think the comparison to rush limbaugh is appropriate

Limbaugh is an ardent conservative, somewhat of a reactionary, and has a bit of a narcissist streak. In his ideal political world, the government safety net would shrink by an order of magnitude (not disappear), government regulatory powers would shrink back to Reagan-era levels or a bit lower, and defense spending would increase by at least a half point of GNP. He joyously baits political liberals (US def), hoping to get them in an uproar.

Regret the end of Slavery? Nonsense.

It is amazing who can get elected Mayor of a Capital city though [one, two, three, four] -- what is it about a capital that generates this?

[Fragony]

I'll leave it to the persons who were actually affected. I don't associate the Germans with ww2, but a lot of older people still do, there are still some open wounds. Who am I to tell them to get over it already.

[The Lurker Below]

It's not possible to say how long it will take. Some groups might never let it go.

http://rt.com/usa/native-american-immigration-man-500/

[Husar]

It's not possible to say how long it will take. Some groups might never let it go.

http://rt.com/usa/native-american-immigration-man-500/

That's awesome.

[Pannonian]

It is amazing who can get elected Mayor of a Capital city though [one, two, three, four] -- what is it about a capital that generates this?

London has elected Ken Livingston and Boris Johnson so far. Should we be going for loonier candidates?

[ReluctantSamurai]

I don't associate the Germans with ww2, but a lot of older people still do, there are still some open wounds.

And as the number of people who were directly affected diminishes, what is the purpose of carrying the bitterness into the future? If the vets of the Iwo Jima battle, for instance, can set aside all the terrible things they did to each other on that piece of sulfur rock, why can't others?

The story about the unnamed Native American might make for a "politically correct" story, but it's rather pointless, no? Obviously, 330 million US citizens are not suddenly going to leave their homes because the pilgrims landed at Plymouth. I would venture that most nations now in existence, did so at the expense of someone else

So is it just a hidden political agenda to pursue when it comes to relations between China and Japan, or something else?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

London has elected Ken Livingston and Boris Johnson so far. Should we be going for loonier candidates?

Absolutely. Think of the fun you could have with Eric Idle doing a stint, or even Lucy Collett. You've established far too reasonable a standard so far.

[Strike For The South]

I only reconciled with the Germans to take on the Russians.

That is my stance.

[Pannonian]

I only reconciled with the Germans to take on the Russians.

That is my stance.

I strongly urge you to reconsider your stance. Reconcile with the Germans for their beer instead.

[HoreTore]

I strongly urge you to reconsider your stance. Reconcile with the Germans for their beer instead.

Weissbier tastes like crap. Going to Germany ranks among the biggest disappointments in my life.

Sorry Germany, England beats you in yet another field.

[Husar]

Weissbier tastes like crap. Going to Germany ranks among the biggest disappointments in my life.

Sorry Germany, England beats you in yet another field.

Weissbier is Bavarian.

[HoreTore]

Weissbier is Bavarian.

Have you finally succeeded in throwing Bavaria out of Germany?

[Husar]

Have you finally succeeded in throwing Bavaria out of Germany?

No, they have their advantages.
But I agree that Weissbier is not one of them.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

No, they have their advantages.
But I agree that Weissbier is not one of them.

Lederhosen. Anything else?

[Fisherking]

Off topic: Weissbier is just wheat beer, of which there are legions, not just in Bavaria, but if you want a good one, of which there are a select few, you would have to go to Bavaria to get it, as well as being a little educated on who brews what.

There are more Types of beer in Bavaria than most other places have breweries. Even the hyper critical should be able to find beer they like, or stay damn drunk for a few days trying.

Just the same, judging all German beer by some unknown weissbier is like judging all beer to taste like Miller Lite.

Back on track: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/10/op...-on-japan.html

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...64802711547872

So Japan is still a militaristic feudal state ruled by Lord Voldemort. Why no just nuke the suckers?

[HoreTore]

I went through all the beers they offered in pubs in Berlin.

I was disappointed. There was one drinkable, but I can't remember its name.... "Dunkel" something.

[Fragony]

Weissbier tastes like crap. Going to Germany ranks among the biggest disappointments in my life

It's pretty good when it's really warm. For the really good beers, you -> Belgium

[Fisherking]

I went through all the beers they offered in pubs in Berlin.

I was disappointed. There was one drinkable, but I can't remember its name.... "Dunkel" something.

Going to Berlin to drink beer is like going to Stockholm to find good Mexican food.

It is a crap shoot and the locals are not help at all in knowing what is good or bad.

Prussians are to beer what American Bureaucracy is to efficiency.

I don’t know what Brandenburg does well. There must be something.

Most larger beers have been taken over by Heinekens, or some of the American Breweries. The results are disappointingly obvious.

Next time you go for Beer try Munich. The Airport is also very good. I don’t think you found that great in Berlin either.

Better luck next time.

[HoreTore]

Going to Berlin to drink beer is like going to Stockholm to find good Mexican food.

It is a crap shoot and the locals are not help at all in knowing what is good or bad.

Prussians are to beer what American Bureaucracy is to efficiency.

I don’t know what Brandenburg does well. There must be something.

Most larger beers have been taken over by Heinekens, or some of the American Breweries. The results are disappointingly obvious.

Next time you go for Beer try Munich. The Airport is also very good. I don’t think you found that great in Berlin either.

Better luck next time.

Drinking beer wasn't the purpose of the trip. It's just something that always happens when I'm travelling...

[ReluctantSamurai]

There are more Types of beer in Bavaria than most other places have breweries. Even the hyper critical should be able to find beer they like, or stay damn drunk for a few days trying.

Here's an idea....why not invite Chinese and Japanese leaders to a big party and serve.....Bavarian beer

The flow of hate comes while China is building up its military, leaving its neighbors on edge. Beijing will spend $148 billion on its military this year, up from $139 billion in 2013. It launched its first aircraft carrier in 2012, and is building a fleet of submarines that it hopes will outnumber the American fleet.

Not much good is going to come from this.....

[Montmorency]

Not much good is going to come from this

I remember doing some research back in 2010; I discovered that in the past decade, China's defense budget had increased by over 500%, in constant USD.

Now, that's working with the stated budget. Going by estimates of the black budget for defence, it was more like 750%.

So, in the past 15 years China's defence spending has increased anywhere from 500-1000% - impressive. You don't spend like that just for show.

Or maybe you do?