Wow! They really did make it harder.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Greetings fellow strategy gamers,

As a veteran of every TW game, starting with the original Shogun, I am perplexed by this game. Granted I haven't played for a couple of years, but I remember enough (and have read enough threads here) to know that this one is special. My son got me the game and the expansion pack with the Otomo, so I'm losing my third attempt at the Otomo on hard.

I might have won the first two attempts if I had read the guides here ahead of time. I should have consolidated my empire once I reached 4 or 5 provinces. I especially should have paid more attention to diplomacy and trade. I don't see any way I could have won the third attempt, but it's not quite over yet.

In the first game, I defeated the clan to my west (sorry, I haven't memorized the names yet) to gain a total of 5 provinces. I then decided to continue blocking the crossing to my island (as I have done every game) with my navy and take the southern island before moving on to the main island. I would not have been over stretched had my dishonorable purple allies to the south not attacked me from behind as I was preparing my second invasion of the island. Once that happened, a random clan attacked my navy opening the crossing from the big island to my enemies to the east. It was a rout from there.

In my second game, I blocked the crossing and defeated my enemy to the west, then decided to clear my island before going any farther. When I attacked my dishonorable allies, I lost their trade and immediately went bankrupt. I could still hold my own, until a random clan declared war and landed in an undefended province by sea. Game over.

I don't want to cut my difficulty setting. I already gave up very hard for hard in Empire, but I might have to start with an easier clan. Still, this clan was a gift from my son, so I'll give it a couple of more tries before I go to an easier clan. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Ed

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

BTW, I'm really excited about realm divide. In previous TW games, once I had 15 provinces, the game was won. The only exception was Rome,, Barbarian Invasion, where a large empire had a chance to lose.

[Gregoshi]

I'm hardly one to give you advice, but I will anyway - at least a little.

Your basic strategy sounds okay - consolidating the island. Based on your description of the second game, perhaps you should seek some allies or trading partners on the mainland. That way when you inevitably are in conflict with your neighbors*, you don't take such a big trade hit to the economy.

But you are right, TWS2 definitely stepped up the challenge - at least initially. Oh how I remember the wailing and gnashing of teeth from most all the players as the game handed them their heads. That eventually changed over the course of time.

* See below

[HopAlongBunny]

Not much to add, but this is one TW release that really makes it worthwhile to use all the tools you are given.
Maltz wrote a number of stories that are excellent guides to each facet of gameplay; all are good reads: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ait-Tactics-10
(links to his other guides are in his sig)

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Thanks for the replies. I will definitely check out those guides, HopAlong.

[nearchos]

I have completed a campaign as Otomo and i remember, a few things, first completely control your island by military conquest and at the same time build a desent navy and rush for the trade posts at the east of the map.
Research the technologies that gives high honor to the Daimio, as well as use him to as many battles as posible so his honor goes up and the diplomatic barriers goes down.
Use, your missionaries, in my campaign they were a super weapon, for turning the conquered populations to christians and also to incite unrest to the buddist held provinces, ( the more the buddist population the higher the posibility to achive it),where there are no big garrisons and it will be easy for a rebbel army to take the castle.
With that way you will be able ro take provinces from factions that you are not at war with since after the rebels takes their casles you will be attacking the cristian rebbels that hold it.
I was able to conquer 10-15 provinces that way, during the whole campaign.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

I have completed a campaign as Otomo and i remember, a few things, first completely control your island by military conquest and at the same time build a desent navy and rush for the trade posts at the east of the map.
Research the technologies that gives high honor to the Daimio, as well as use him to as many battles as posible so his honor goes up and the diplomatic barriers goes down.
Use, your missionaries, in my campaign they were a super weapon, for turning the conquered populations to christians and also to incite unrest to the buddist held provinces, ( the more the buddist population the higher the posibility to achive it),where there are no big garrisons and it will be easy for a rebbel army to take the castle.
With that way you will be able ro take provinces from factions that you are not at war with since after the rebels takes their casles you will be attacking the cristian rebbels that hold it.
I was able to conquer 10-15 provinces that way, during the whole campaign.

Good advice Nearchos. The missionaries do seem to be the most powerful force in the clan. I hadn't thought of christian rebellions as the primary force of conquest, but why not?

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Attempt number 3 is now officially a failure. Will begin attempt number 4 tonight.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Well, thanks to Maltz, Nearchos, and Miss Froggybeast, attempt number 4 is going pretty well. A dozen moves, one enemy wiped out, one kept at bay, and only one new one made (who I want anyway).

I may attempt to put a game into story when I play Rome 2. That looks like a fun project. I don't know enough Japanese history to do it well with Shogun, but I spent a lot of time studying the Roman world. I only use Windows (on Bootcamp on my Mac) for games, so I need to figure out how to do screen shots on it (It can't be much harder than on Mac) and after I finish Shogun I'll start. Maltz has some great ones as do others.

[Gregoshi]

Yeah, Maltz and Monk were two of the more prolific AAR writers. Good reads.

[HopAlongBunny]

Glad to hear things are working out :)

The only thing I would add is that this edition of TW really rewards planning.
Once you secure the island, sit back and set out your roadmap to victory; troops/boats needed, provinces, agents needed/locations, and most importantly-how are you going to handle the inevitable Realm Divide.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Glad to hear things are working out :)

The only thing I would add is that this edition of TW really rewards planning.
Once you secure the island, sit back and set out your roadmap to victory; troops/boats needed, provinces, agents needed/locations, and most importantly-how are you going to handle the inevitable Realm Divide.

I've been thinking about that. I have never even felt threatened after accumulating 15 provinces in any other TW game, other than Rome Barbarian Invasion, and then only for a short while until I stabilized my empire.

I can move up the main island with two armies and accumulate enough provinces for realm divide. Then defend there with two armies and two fleets while a third army takes the southern island to get vassals to trade with after realm divide. Meanwhile I'll use agents to soften up the clans closest to me on the main island before expanding to the point where I need four armies on my front. I figure I will still need two more to guard the southern island from revolting vassals and the western island just in case an army slips by on the sea. I hope to accumulate the needed cash reserve and technology while expanding rather than taking time just before, since I have to go so slowly to convert new provinces to christianity.

For each army, at full stack strength, I want
4 cavalry units + the general (the low level ones have always worked as well as the advanced ones for my tactics) 2 bow and 2 light,
10 low level troops, 5 archers and 5 yari,
5 elite troops du jury, including gunners, swordsmen, and/or siege units (changing these for the specific mission).

As in other TW games, I will put my most advanced training facilities as close to the front as possible and replace the older ones with $ generating buildings.

That's as far ahead as I have pondered to this point.

[faker01]

I hope to accumulate the needed cash reserve and technology while expanding rather than taking time just before, since I have to go so slowly to convert new provinces to christianity.

Fast expanding brings most cash(and fun). The only clan I had problems with fast expanding was the ikko-ikki. Converting costs some units and the ikko-ikki have many enemys, which requires an aggresive tactic.

For each army, at full stack strength, I want
4 cavalry units + the general (the low level ones have always worked as well as the advanced ones for my tactics) 2 bow and 2 light,
10 low level troops, 5 archers and 5 yari,
5 elite troops du jury, including gunners, swordsmen, and/or siege units (changing these for the specific mission).

I wouldn't use archers with the Otomo. Except in siege battles or with Chosokabe the bow ashigaru worth less then yari ashigaru. Other bow units cost more and still have a rather low use.

As in other TW games, I will put my most advanced training facilities as close to the front as possible and replace the older ones with $ generating buildings.

Don't forget to check if they realy bring something. Some building need ages to bring more cash then they cost.

BTW, I'm really excited about realm divide. In previous TW games, once I had 15 provinces, the game was won. The only exception was Rome,, Barbarian Invasion, where a large empire had a chance to lose.

If you play aggressive you shouldn't get problems after realm divide. If you play defensiv you may can get overrun. I don't know if it can still a problem, in previous versions clans had more armies.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Thanks, Faker. Couple of questions.

Fast expanding brings most cash(and fun). The only clan I had problems with fast expanding was the ikko-ikki. Converting costs some units and the ikko-ikki have many enemys, which requires an aggresive tactic.

I wouldn't use archers with the Otomo. Except in siege battles or with Chosokabe the bow ashigaru worth less then yari ashigaru. Other bow units cost more and still have a rather low use.

Don't forget to check if they realy bring something. Some building need ages to bring more cash then they cost.

If you play aggressive you shouldn't get problems after realm divide. If you play defensiv you may can get overrun. I don't know if it can still a problem, in previous versions clans had more armies.

I like the gunpowder units, but the bows work in the rain, and seem to go over walls better.

I would expect the Otomo to have the same problems as Iko Iki, namely religious differences. Provinces take awhile to convert, so progress is slower than in other games, and probably other clans. Why would you expect Otomo to pacify provinces faster than Iko Iki?

BTW, I am going to cheat and use a previous save to avoid disaster. Since my third game of the original Shogun, I play pretty much by legendary rules on the campaign map. I will save before an auto resolve then redo if it goes badly, but otherwise take my lumps. It makes the game more interesting. In this case, I will make and exception.

I caused war to be declared in my backfield by sending a ninja across another clan's property. I didn't think I would get that reaction for just walking across, but we otherwise had good relations, then they declared war on me and sent a full stack into my lightly guarded provinces.

[faker01]

I like the gunpowder units, but the bows work in the rain, and seem to go over walls better.

For attacking a small castle bows are better, since gunpowder units won't hit much. But when gunpowder units can hit(field battle, defendig a castle, attacking a big castle), they kill much faster.
(btw, I don't know how weather affects the units.)

I would expect the Otomo to have the same problems as Iko Iki, namely religious differences. Provinces take awhile to convert, so progress is slower than in other games, and probably other clans. Why would you expect Otomo to pacify provinces faster than Iko Iki?

It doesn't matter where the ikko ikki expand, they get more fronts. Their location is very good to expand, but when they need many of the troops to suppress revolts, they simply have not enough units left to expand fast, or even to protect all borders.
The Otomo have an protected location. The ikko ikki can be attacked from all sites, so they need cheaper armys and they will fight more often.

I caused war to be declared in my backfield by sending a ninja across another clan's property. I didn't think I would get that reaction for just walking across, but we otherwise had good relations, then they declared war on me and sent a full stack into my lightly guarded provinces.

No clan is trustworthy, but it's predictable, when they declare war. With some experince you may know, when you should prepare your armies.
Note that the clans act similar, so expect that more clans will declare war. So if a small neutral clan is on the way, don't hesitate to attack them. xD

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Well, for the last week, the real world had interfered with the TW world. Finally I had a chance to go back in time before the Tachibana attacked and avoid the mistake of sending a ninja into their territory. They attacked anyway. This time, I am more prepared for them and may survive the attack. The Ouchi attack has left them "feeble" in military power, so the only threat now is the Tachibana and maybe the Ho. Of course someone could land by sea as happened in another attempt, but I feel better about this one.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

You're right Faker. No question that matchlock units get a lot more kills defending castles than bow units.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Well, I played a lot and cheated a lot over the weekend. By going back in time and changing the order in which I took the last two provinces of the Tachibana and the Ho, I eliminated their armies without fighting them, a trick I learned from Maltz.

Now the Ouchi have invaded with a full stack from the east, and the Mori are off shore with a full stack on a boat about to land. Those are my only two enemies right now, though. I should be able to survive the attack and keep my island secure while I build a navy.

I guess cheating is more honorable than dropping a difficulty level or switching to and ease clan.

[Gregoshi]

Hey NSC, this is TOTAL war!! Anything goes.

It sounds like you've given the Otomo enough good tries to allow yourself some leeway with the "cheats". I'm sure you will eventually learn the ropes enough not have to lean on cheats to be successful.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Thanks for the support, Gregoshi. I am going all out on the time travel cheat with several points I could go back to and take a different direction. In the present time (Game time) I have driven the Ouchi off of my island, but the Mori have landed and taken two undefended provinces and are bearing down on my one defended province in the north, where the army is at less than half strength from fighting the Ouchi. In the mean time, my army in the south is about half way to the rescue and will be in the fight in a couple of turns. I am now coming up against higher quality troops, which make more of a difference than I think they did in previous TW games.

[HopAlongBunny]

Go !

With that island start you really need naval dominance; being able to transport from the island to central Japan (or back) in one move is a life saver

[faker01]

Single ships are enough for transport. The point is to keep them in the docks (except these with trading routs) and never have an army inside after the rounds.

I am now coming up against higher quality troops, which make more of a difference than I think they did in previous TW games.

low quality units are bigger and cheaper. Bigger units profit more from bonuses (exp, good general, superior equipment). They are weak at beginning, but later they can easily beat every army the ki makes. Note that close combat units profit much more from the bonuses.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Well HopAlong, The Mori have wiped out my navy. I spent all my resources taking the whole Island. As of my last play, the Mori landed after I finished off the invading Ouchi army. I had a "valiant defeat against them when they took my castle in the north, giving them three of my provinces, so they are severely weakened for my southern army that is marching north to take my provinces back. If I fail, I may go back in time to before I attacked the Ouchi army and wait in the castle to preserve more troops for the Mori invasion. As soon as the island is secure, all money will go to a new navy before any additional conquest.

The low level troop advantage is good to know, Faker. I have always used about half low level troops in other TW games even when I was prosperous.

[BroskiDerpman]

I like to use yari Ashigaru a lot. They're pretty cost efficient with chevrons in spearwall. Always make your opponent engage frontally. Problem is that Ashigaru rout much faster when the situation goes bad/ can suffer less abuse compared to Samurai I.e charging into a hail of musket fire which is devastating.

Good units that complement yari Ashigaru are naginata infantry due to their good holding power and in the case of the mon k good morale plus war cry. Matchlocks are useful, though in SP they aren't extremely useful due to having to wait like half the game to get them. But if you can get around 4 matchlocks and maybe one or two bow warrior monks.

As for cavalry when you go spear heavy you want a cavalry unit that's very good anti infantry like katana cavalry. When you use a bunch of katanas or no dachi (no dachi are better than katana sam in terms of pure sword unit, what you want in swords is highest attack and charge, then an ability like banzai so they fight til the last man) you'd want to use anti cav cavalry like yari cav.

A universal disruption cav unit is light cav which is a good complement to katana or yari cav.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Yes Broski, I will probably always have a front line of Yari Ashiguru.

The Matchlock units have been the most important in defending castles, but marginal in other situations. I haven't used the special abilities with them, so that may be the way to get milage out of them on the open field.

For me, every pre-S2 TW battle started with a cavalry charge. S2 is similar, but I don't make contact on the first pass. AI seems to want to chase my cavalry more than in previous games, so they can run in circles and occupy a quarter to a third of the enemy forces for ever. They finally charge when I can isolate some archers or a general next to my general or a yard unit. I only have the lowest level of everything at this point as I am always close to bankruptcy in this game.

As I stated above, my first major upgrade will be my navy, if I can survive long enough to do it.

[BroskiDerpman]

I usually use multiple groupings.

Many times I combine a matchlock with a spear unit. Though in SP this is not as important and I play it for fun so I use one giant formation mainly spears and naginatas, then I deploy them in layers with good spacings. Then I place guns on flanks guarded by yari Ashigaru.

You want to deploy in something like this: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8Fbuu7bR0cE

I find guns useful in field battles but not in large numbers and they need good positioning which to be honest many SP players lack the knowledge of.

Just incase if you were to ask I enjoy both SP and MP and like to play mods.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Great video, Broski. I like using and inventing new formations and also use multiple groups with large armies. I will definitely try putting the matchlocks on the flanks next time I play. I have been putting them in the center and trying to get the Yari Ashiguru to converge on attacking troops from the flanks before they reach the Matchlocks.

I think I would enjoy multi payer games if I had more time to play and improve my skill and speed. I tried a couple of multiplayer games years ago, before TW, with Total Annihilation. I lost quickly an miserably and couldn't even figure out how I lost.

[BroskiDerpman]

Just so you know that video isn't mine but it shows a method of deploying guns to try to maximize their effect.

The thought is that the more angles of fire you get (Flanking) the more better use you are making of your matchlocks. In multiplayer this has been taken to the extreme with most good players using attendants with a gun in one group which can be pretty fragile.

[NapoleanShogunCaesar]

Thanks, Broski. I tried the guns on the flanks on my recent play and it worked very well. Question. What do you mean by "attendants"? I'll check out your video later which may answer the question.

I have driven the Mori off of my Island and took out one of their provinces on the mainland with my missionary. I had the whole island to myself for a whole turn and then the Ouchi attacked by sea at my capital, eliminating my ability to train Matchlocks. All they have is a half stack, so if I get no more attacks, I can eliminate them easily enough, but that will prevent me from building my navy for a few more turns (the capital was my main naval town also). While I have gained provinces, I have lost power. I still may go back to before my original attack against the Ouchi and Mori invaders. Defend the majority of the island cheaply while saving money and building the navy.

I will play a couple of turns today and see how it goes before making the decision to go so far back in time.

[BroskiDerpman]

Attendants is an RoTS unit. In multiplayer specifically avatar CA decided to include attendants in with the Sengoku units. In my opinion that was a bad decision but most players like it.

For Singleplayer I'd use Ashigaru- gun groupings (I played a couple turns in a Otomo campaign and the only units I've trained are matchlock Ashigaru and yari Ashigaru, I use one of each to create a group and so far the ai is too easy to rip apart with inferior numbers)

Just make sure to get a general with stand and fight, that'll keep the yari ashigaru in the fight much longer and less susceptible to chain routs. The bonuses are very significant and it's easy to use.

If you can get some naginata samurai for sieges, they're really good at tanking out damage.