responding to common objections to bible part 7

[Sigurd]

interesting, i have never heard that idea before. I do disagree as that would make only genesis of all the book 66 to have as title to it. Not to mention a simple reading of it clearly states heavens and earth and in the beginning, time/space/matter. But the fact being made was time/space/matter and the creation of all three.

It really does beg the question to why Genesis does not come with an introduction like all other books in the Bible. You incorrectly states that because there are no header verses in the other 65 books genesis 1 doesn't need one either.
Most books do have a header verse such as: "and God spake to Moses using these words:" (paraphrasing) or The words of Jeremiah, or the vision of Isiah. Why shouldn't Genesis have one? It really needs something like: The words that God spake unto Moses concerning the creation of heaven and earth.

If you have a look at the Hebrew bible, you'll notice that "heaven" used in verse 1 is the same as used later in verse 8 (Šāmáyim), which should indicate that genesis chapter 1 concerns the creation of our world with its dry land and the air (water) that surrounds it.
The narrative explains the creation as viewed from the perspective of being on or close to the earth. It is a far stretch to attribute heaven in verse 1 to be meaning the entire universe. It is something that is wrongly inferred and I am aware that has been the tradition for many years in Christianity. Simply let it go - and the big bang controversy becomes a non issue with Christians.
Genesis talks about the creation of the earth and its immediate surrounding - from the ignition of our star (1:3) to the clearance of the dense dust cloud that surrounds it (1:14-18).

[total relism]

Sorry?

The Bible the only book of Prophecy?

What about all the prophecies that didn't make it into the Bible?

The Bible doesn't even MENTION the destruction of Troy!

Look - I'm a Christian - but you're just talking out of the your fundament-alist.

I am sorry but i am not sure what your saying so i will respond to what i think your arguing, that the bible is not the only religious book of Prophecy, and it does not Prophecy because it does not mention the fall of troy.


could you name another book with Prophecy,clear fulfilled Prophecy? a religious book claiming to be gods word? specific Prophecy like the bible has?


troy? why must it? if it was only a book of Prophecy and mentioned everything in future, than you could ask this. But it is gods word to us on salvation with Prophecy in it. Having it not mention one thing [it does not about of allot of things to come] does not take away from what it does.

I see you are unable to interpret Indian poetry.

I am not surprised.

than by all means please interpret it to say just what id does not say. I feel like im talking with Muslims about the Koran here. Please show me how to inteprit it so it says what is not here [absolute origin of space/time/matter/energy] and does not say the gods were created after and there was already matter and energy and gods created after.

It really does beg the question to why Genesis does not come with an introduction like all other books in the Bible. You incorrectly states that because there are no header verses in the other 65 books genesis 1 doesn't need one either.
Most books do have a header verse such as: "and God spake to Moses using these words:" (paraphrasing) or The words of Jeremiah, or the vision of Isiah. Why shouldn't Genesis have one? It really needs something like: The words that God spake unto Moses concerning the creation of heaven and earth.

If you have a look at the Hebrew bible, you'll notice that "heaven" used in verse 1 is the same as used later in verse 8 (Šāmáyim), which should indicate that genesis chapter 1 concerns the creation of our world with its dry land and the air (water) that surrounds it.
The narrative explains the creation as viewed from the perspective of being on or close to the earth. It is a far stretch to attribute heaven in verse 1 to be meaning the entire universe. It is something that is wrongly inferred and I am aware that has been the tradition for many years in Christianity. Simply let it go - and the big bang controversy becomes a non issue with Christians.
Genesis talks about the creation of the earth and its immediate surrounding - from the ignition of our star (1:3) to the clearance of the dense dust cloud that surrounds it (1:14-18).

Just saying to claim its a header verse would go against the bible more than constant with.


you said

" It really needs something like"

but it does not, the other books of moses start that way, not genesis. I think genesis was edited by Moses but was around before him, the focus is not moses but creation of time/space/matter in genisis 1.


you said

" Simply let it go - and the big bang controversy becomes a non issue with Christians. "


I will have to stop here, as i see your a old earth/evolutionist christian. I do not wish to show what i think that your reitpriting the bible to match a unbiblical idea [big bang millions of years etc] i dont wish to argue this point as i think it may effect your faith [not my goal]. I think a clear Reading of genesis 1 will be constant with what i said.



But as to my op, would you say that genesis does not tell the origin of time/ space/matter? even if we assume Genesis 1 only speaks of earth as you say? only this would conflict with my op.

[Sarmatian]

as i see your a old earth/evolutionist christian.

and the other side is called uneducated Christians.

[Sigurd]

But as to my op, would you say that genesis does not tell the origin of time/ space/matter? even if we assume Genesis 1 only speaks of earth as you say? only this would conflict with my op.

Does Genesis state the origin of time/space/matter? I believe it doesn't. It omits it as non relevant for the story at hand (God telling Moses the origin of this world).
I can't twist my head around it telling a creation story of anything other than this world and maybe the solar system (the creation of the Sun).

I have a science degree (MaIT) and there are observations that just can't be ignored - and as such you need to read genesis with this in mind. I found that genesis doesn't really conflict with the current established scientific theory of how our solar system was created (the order of such from the earth's perspective). But if you look further (where is our solar system placed?) which function does the entire milkyway galaxy serve? What about the relatively near Andromeda? Or any of the uncountable other galaxies out there. What purpose does those serve in the great scheme of things?

[total relism]

Does Genesis state the origin of time/space/matter? I believe it doesn't. It omits it as non relevant for the story at hand (God telling Moses the origin of this world).
I can't twist my head around it telling a creation story of anything other than this world and maybe the solar system (the creation of the Sun).

I have a science degree (MaIT) and there are observations that just can't be ignored - and as such you need to read genesis with this in mind. I found that genesis doesn't really conflict with the current established scientific theory of how our solar system was created (the order of such from the earth's perspective). But if you look further (where is our solar system placed?) which function does the entire milkyway galaxy serve? What about the relatively near Andromeda? Or any of the uncountable other galaxies out there. What purpose does those serve in the great scheme of things?

given the above i have to say i feel no obligation to fit or reinterpret genesis as clearly stated because you believe it must be. My op follows what the bible says, not what others decide it must say. If you must reitpreit the bible, maybe the bible is false? or maybe it is correct and the current materialistic atheistic explanation is false, it must be one or the other. So as far as my op and what was said, it follows what the bible says not how you decide it must say because you believe it otherwise would be false. So our discussion in my mind has nothing to do with op or bible so i must only respond to on topic of op post from here on out. Your thoughts and views will fit perfectly with my next thread.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I am sorry but i am not sure what your saying so i will respond to what i think your arguing, that the bible is not the only religious book of Prophecy, and it does not Prophecy because it does not mention the fall of troy.


could you name another book with Prophecy,clear fulfilled Prophecy? a religious book claiming to be gods word? specific Prophecy like the bible has?


troy? why must it? if it was only a book of Prophecy and mentioned everything in future, than you could ask this. But it is gods word to us on salvation with Prophecy in it. Having it not mention one thing [it does not about of allot of things to come] does not take away from what it does.

The recorded Prophecies of the Oracle at Delphi, to name one, were said to predict the fall of Troy and the coming of the "Sea Peoples" who overthrew the Civilisation that Moses knew, yet the Bible says nothing about these people - for all that they laid low Mycenae, Krete, and Egypt, possibly even the Hittites.

Later prophecies foretold the coming of the Persians into Greece and their eventual defeat.

This also, is not recorded in the Bible.

The prophecies in the Bible are only the prophecies of the People of Israel.

[total relism]

The recorded Prophecies of the Oracle at Delphi, to name one, were said to predict the fall of Troy and the coming of the "Sea Peoples" who overthrew the Civilisation that Moses knew, yet the Bible says nothing about these people - for all that they laid low Mycenae, Krete, and Egypt, possibly even the Hittites.

Later prophecies foretold the coming of the Persians into Greece and their eventual defeat.

This also, is not recorded in the Bible.

The prophecies in the Bible are only the prophecies of the People of Israel.

would you mind showing me specifics of these oracles? when first written and when fulfilled, just what they actually say. However the bible does mention Alexander, but even if the bible only contains prophecies of isreal or concerning isreal/messiah, how does that not make it a prophetic work?. If there is true accurate fortellings by this other writing, i am very interested. I would love to see them if you can provide for me.

[Pannonian]

would you mind showing me specifics of these oracles? when first written and when fulfilled, just what they actually say. However the bible does mention Alexander, but even if the bible only contains prophecies of isreal or concerning isreal/messiah, how does that not make it a prophetic work?. If there is true accurate fortellings by this other writing, i am very interested. I would love to see them if you can provide for me.

I'd have thought that someone who is posting in a TW fan forum would be familiar with at least some of the Delphic oracles. Such as the one about wooden walls. Or the one about the King falling in battle. Or indeed the one about the crippled King. That's just a few off the top of my head, which generated considerable discussion at the time, so we know the timings of these oracles. And we certainly know how events turned out.

Also, if the bible is indeed a prophetic work for the people of Israel, and the Delphic oracle also a prophetic work of equal accuracy for the Greek people, does this mean the divine power behind the Delphic oracle is no less valid than the divine power behind the biblical prophecies? Does this mean, gasp, that the biblical god is not the only god out there with oracular credibility?

[total relism]

I'd have thought that someone who is posting in a TW fan forum would be familiar with at least some of the Delphic oracles. Such as the one about wooden walls. Or the one about the King falling in battle. Or indeed the one about the crippled King. That's just a few off the top of my head, which generated considerable discussion at the time, so we know the timings of these oracles. And we certainly know how events turned out.

Also, if the bible is indeed a prophetic work for the people of Israel, and the Delphic oracle also a prophetic work of equal accuracy for the Greek people, does this mean the divine power behind the Delphic oracle is no less valid than the divine power behind the biblical prophecies? Does this mean, gasp, that the biblical god is not the only god out there with oracular credibility?

I must confess i have never heard of delphic b-4. I would say to your question, first we need to see these delphic claims, investigate them.

[HoreTore]

I must confess i have never heard of delphic b-4. I would say to your question, first we need to see these delphic claims, investigate them.

What Greek literature(besides the bible, obviously) have you read, then?

Wiki has an easily accessible article on the subject.

Anyway. Just like several religions have ex nihilo creation myths, so do several religions have prophecies as a central part of their religious practice and beliefs, like the Romans, the Greeks, heck even New Age is big on prophecy. Their claims of prophecy are as "accurate" as those of the bible.

[Pannonian]

I must confess i have never heard of delphic b-4. I would say to your question, first we need to see these delphic claims, investigate them.

Bloody hell, investigate these Delphic oracles? People have already formed policies and fought and won/lost wars and kingdoms based on them. I daresay there has been far more historical study of the events surrounding these oracles than there has been of the events surrounding the biblical prophecies. Are there any concrete pieces of evidence dating back to when any of the biblical prophecies were made, with accurately dated historical records confirming the existence of the prophecy story, and the response to it? Because we know about the wooden walls oracle, and we have concrete proof of Athenian action based on their interpretation of that oracle, which we can date to within a year of the oracle being made (since we know the sequence of events in detail).

[Sarmatian]

I must confess i have never heard of delphic b-4. I would say to your question, first we need to see these delphic claims, investigate them.

Long story short, there were these people called the Delphs, who everyone hated and wanted to destroy. Their most prominent emperor, Fabulous II, built the oracles to warn them of the Persian invasion.