responding to common objections to bible part 7

[Pannonian]

I must confess i have never heard of delphic b-4. I would say to your question, first we need to see these delphic claims, investigate them.

Bloody hell, investigate these Delphic oracles? People have already formed policies and fought and won/lost wars and kingdoms based on them. I daresay there has been far more historical study of the events surrounding these oracles than there has been of the events surrounding the biblical prophecies. Are there any concrete pieces of evidence dating back to when any of the biblical prophecies were made, with accurately dated historical records confirming the existence of the prophecy story, and the response to it? Because we know about the wooden walls oracle, and we have concrete proof of Athenian action based on their interpretation of that oracle, which we can date to within a year of the oracle being made (since we know the sequence of events in detail).

[total relism]

What Greek literature(besides the bible, obviously) have you read, then?

Wiki has an easily accessible article on the subject.

Anyway. Just like several religions have ex nihilo creation myths, so do several religions have prophecies as a central part of their religious practice and beliefs, like the Romans, the Greeks, heck even New Age is big on prophecy. Their claims of prophecy are as "accurate" as those of the bible.

you have yet to provide any creation of time/space/matter. You have provided none. as for oracles, i read first few they did not seem to fit a prediction or give time and fulfillment. Could you please provide the best one you have, with time written, than time fulfilled?, in same life time while could be true, does not count,.

Bloody hell, investigate these Delphic oracles? People have already formed policies and fought and won/lost wars and kingdoms based on them. I daresay there has been far more historical study of the events surrounding these oracles than there has been of the events surrounding the biblical prophecies. Are there any concrete pieces of evidence dating back to when any of the biblical prophecies were made, with accurately dated historical records confirming the existence of the prophecy story, and the response to it? Because we know about the wooden walls oracle, and we have concrete proof of Athenian action based on their interpretation of that oracle, which we can date to within a year of the oracle being made (since we know the sequence of events in detail).

I figured you were messing with me b-4. good laugh.

[HoreTore]

Could you please provide the best one you have

No, you will have to do that job yourself.

We're here to laugh at your ignorance, not educate you.

(and Pannonian has already given the most famous one anyway)

[Pannonian]

you have yet to provide any creation of time/space/matter. You have provided none. as for oracles, i read first few they did not seem to fit a prediction or give time and fulfillment. Could you please provide the best one you have, with time written, than time fulfilled?, in same life time while could be true, does not count,

In the same lifetime does not count? Are you aware that Greek states formed policies based on these oracles?

Example 1:
Athens sends to Delphi for an oracle seeking for advice on what to do about the coming Persian invasion. The oracle tells them to put their faith in their wooden walls. The Athenian strategists debate what this means. Some side with the interpretation that they should defend their city walls and make a stand on the Acropolis. Themistocles suggests that the wooden walls refers to their navy, Eventually they take this interpretation, and evacuate the whole of the Athenian population to Troizen across the bay, and if need be, elsewhere. Athens, left empty, is burned by the Persians. However, the Athenian strategy, based on their reading of the oracle, makes itself felt, as the military strength of the Greeks and principally the Athenians, transferred to their ships, defeats the Persians in the naval battle of Salamis. Thus we have the oracle, the discussion of the oracle and the formation of policy based on the oracle, and the fulfilment of the oracle.

Is there anything so substantial in the historical concerning the prophecies of the bible? Another oracle from that time resulted in Leonidas leading his 300 Spartans to Thermopylae to make a stand. We know the historicity of that stand because Alexander referred to it when he sent back 300 suits of Persian armour after Granicus, with a note singling out the Spartans for their absence.

Go read some history books. Heck, go read some books that aren't the bible.

[Kadagar_AV]

you have yet to provide any creation of time/space/matter.

As have you.

Ignorant rambling does not equate proving the bible shows a perfect understanding of the universe. I am just guessing here, but I don't believe knowledge of physics to be your strongest ability.

[HoreTore]

As to biblical inerrancy...

Jesus is mentioned as born in the reign of Herod the Great. At that time, Judea was a client kingdom of Rome. It also says that there was a census taken at his birth. The romans did not take a census in client kingdoms. They did take a census at a later date when Judea was a province, however, but that means Jesus could not have been born under Herod if the census story is true. Further, Jospeh lived in Galilee, which was not a part of the province of Judea, and so not subject to a census. A census also required the head of the household(the male) to announce his property, there would be no reason for a pregnant Mary to travel.

Thus, the story of Joseph travelling to Bethlehem to register as part of a census under Herod is obvious nonsense. That makes no difference for sane Christians who can happily appreciate the story for its moral value. It does, however, become a significant problem if you treat it as an authoritative history book.

[Sigurd]

As to biblical inerrancy...

Jesus is mentioned as born in the reign of Herod the Great. At that time, Judea was a client kingdom of Rome. It also says that there was a census taken at his birth. The romans did not take a census in client kingdoms. They did take a census at a later date when Judea was a province, however, but that means Jesus could not have been born under Herod if the census story is true. Further, Jospeh lived in Galilee, which was not a part of the province of Judea, and so not subject to a census. A census also required the head of the household(the male) to announce his property, there would be no reason for a pregnant Mary to travel.

Thus, the story of Joseph travelling to Bethlehem to register as part of a census under Herod is obvious nonsense. That makes no difference for sane Christians who can happily appreciate the story for its moral value. It does, however, become a significant problem if you treat it as an authoritative history book.

Ya know... If you start interpreting what Luke actually was saying here - this can be explained and supported by outside historical facts... But if that is not an option and you have to take the text at face value as a modern grammar nazi, HR wins this.

[Kadagar_AV]

Ya know... If you start interpreting what Luke actually was saying here - this can be explained and supported by outside historical facts... But if that is not an option and you have to take the text at face value as a FUNDAMENTALIST, EDUCATION wins this.

FIFY

[HoreTore]

Ya know... If you start interpreting what Luke actually was saying here - this can be explained and supported by outside historical facts... But if that is not an option and you have to take the text at face value as a modern grammar nazi, HR wins this.

Interpretation is not an option for a literalist.

Anyway, watcha talking about? They did have a census under Herod?

[Sigurd]

Interpretation is not an option for a literalist.

Anyway, watcha talking about? They did have a census under Herod?

You need to look what is claimed in the NT and Luke particularly since this is considered THE record of the nativity story.

King James:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)

Douay-Rheims:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And it came to pass, that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that the whole world should be enrolled.
This enrolling was first made by Cyrinus, the governor of Syria.
And all went to be enrolled, every one into his own city.
And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem: because he was of the house and family of David,

New English Bible:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

IN THOSE DAYS a decree was issued by the Emperor Augustus for a general registration throughout the Roman world. This was the first registration of its kind; it took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria. For this purpose everyone made his way to his own town; and so Joseph went up to Judaea from the town of Nazareth in Galilee, to be registered at the city of David, called Bethlehem, because he was of the house of David by descent;

Two clues are given to the time this happened and that can easily be verified by other records. The decree issued by Gaius Octavius is the first. Did he ever decree such a census? Yes he did and he lists them in his Res Gestae Divi Augusti (§8). One in 28 BC, another in 8 BC and the last in 14 AD. Which one is closest to the Birth of Jesus? It would be the 8 BC one. So that's a start. Then the other clue is; it happened during the reign of Quirinius (spelled the greek way Cyrenius in NT) as governor of Syria. When was Qurinius the legate of Syria? Documented by many contemporary historians to be around 6 AD - 12 AD.

Right, so off the bat if we peg the birth of Jesus to 0 AD we are off with over a decade on both the census and when Quirinius was legate of Syria. Any literal interpretation of the Luke account shows that he was off by too many years, as your Herod (who died in 4 BC) comment also states. He seems to be taking facts from the history, but are not able to match the dates and as such seems to be creative in his narrative. Some claim that Jesus was born sometime around 7 - 4 BC which fits into the Herod period and the Census of 8 BC - but are off with over a decade on the Quirinius claim.

So how to solve this? Well one solution is bad translation. The word "first" (prot) can also be translated as "prior" which then would indicate that it happened before Quirinius became legate of Syria (one of his first duties was to conduct a census in the area). The other solution is that Quirinius somehow was involved in the 8 BC census which was his first census and the one he conducted as legate was the second.

And the comment of having to travel to Bethlehem from Galilee is also explained. If one actually reads such a census, you will discover that people travel from wherever they are currently staying to their original home to register at that census.

[total relism]

No, you will have to do that job yourself.

We're here to laugh at your ignorance, not educate you.

(and Pannonian has already given the most famous one anyway)

i claimed the bible was only account of time space matter in the beginning. You said that was false, you provided a wiki link that does not help your case, than claim i need to be educated. The burden of proof is up to you to counter my op's claim of genesis only account of time/space/matter creation.

In the same lifetime does not count? Are you aware that Greek states formed policies based on these oracles?

Example 1:
Athens sends to Delphi for an oracle seeking for advice on what to do about the coming Persian invasion. The oracle tells them to put their faith in their wooden walls. The Athenian strategists debate what this means. Some side with the interpretation that they should defend their city walls and make a stand on the Acropolis. Themistocles suggests that the wooden walls refers to their navy, Eventually they take this interpretation, and evacuate the whole of the Athenian population to Troizen across the bay, and if need be, elsewhere. Athens, left empty, is burned by the Persians. However, the Athenian strategy, based on their reading of the oracle, makes itself felt, as the military strength of the Greeks and principally the Athenians, transferred to their ships, defeats the Persians in the naval battle of Salamis. Thus we have the oracle, the discussion of the oracle and the formation of policy based on the oracle, and the fulfilment of the oracle.

Is there anything so substantial in the historical concerning the prophecies of the bible? Another oracle from that time resulted in Leonidas leading his 300 Spartans to Thermopylae to make a stand. We know the historicity of that stand because Alexander referred to it when he sent back 300 suits of Persian armour after Granicus, with a note singling out the Spartans for their absence.

Go read some history books. Heck, go read some books that aren't the bible.

I am not saying they cant be true in same lifetime, i am saying to prove true they would have to be written, than fulfilled later that same author/person could not be around to see them fulfilled.



Go read some history books. Heck, go read some books that aren't the bible.

show me the documents when written/when fulfilled in your claims, you wont be able to, they are written after the fact, does not make them false but does nothing to prove they are true.

As have you.

Ignorant rambling does not equate proving the bible shows a perfect understanding of the universe. I am just guessing here, but I don't believe knowledge of physics to be your strongest ability.

please read my op, it will fix your misunderstanding i hope. what were talking of is my claim that only genesis starts with the creation of time/space/matter, of all religious books and writings..

As to biblical inerrancy...

Jesus is mentioned as born in the reign of Herod the Great. At that time, Judea was a client kingdom of Rome. It also says that there was a census taken at his birth. The romans did not take a census in client kingdoms. They did take a census at a later date when Judea was a province, however, but that means Jesus could not have been born under Herod if the census story is true. Further, Jospeh lived in Galilee, which was not a part of the province of Judea, and so not subject to a census. A census also required the head of the household(the male) to announce his property, there would be no reason for a pregnant Mary to travel.

Thus, the story of Joseph travelling to Bethlehem to register as part of a census under Herod is obvious nonsense. That makes no difference for sane Christians who can happily appreciate the story for its moral value. It does, however, become a significant problem if you treat it as an authoritative history book.

off topic, please this is easily refuted, you could search online for your answer. Claimed contradictions i have seen around 400, answered 400. You just dont care or want a answer so you like to hear it to be false, so you never investigate. Contradictions are not topic, i have done them b-4 on this thread and allowed people to bring up top 3 each. I will do so again if you wish on another thread, maybe one focused on contradictions [supposed].

[HoreTore]

off topic, please this is easily refuted, you could search online for your answer. Claimed contradictions i have seen around 400, answered 400. You just dont care or want a answer so you like to hear it to be false, so you never investigate. Contradictions are not topic, i have done them b-4 on this thread and allowed people to bring up top 3 each. I will do so again if you wish on another thread, maybe one focused on contradictions [supposed].

You had never even heard of the Greco-Persian war before, this proves you have absolutely no authoritative knowledge of the classical world.

You can't even begin to address these contradictions(as you call them), as you do not have the required knowledge to do so.

[Kadagar_AV]

To be able to think the Bible explain physics, I for one think one have to be insane, uneducated, or religiously brainwashed.

Quite possibly a combination of more than one factor.

The universe is a great and wondrous thing, and I must quite frankly say I get upset when people try to diminish the sheer WORK of humanity's combined intelligence to reach where we are today.

[Idaho]

I just started reading the bible. I got as far as Genesis 1.29. Cool. I'm off to plant some ganga and opium.

[Brenus]

“notice what he did there, he avoided all presented,made more baseless claims [jews copied] avoided the clear fact he had never read the two by his earlier statment made”.
Ahhh, now we are in the “smear” campaign… Hmm: I will make it clear (as I did but apparently TR English is becoming deficient): I read in FRENCH the Book of Gilgamesh.
Now, TR is so corned (and up-set) than he resorts to claim that I am lying, and he KNOWS my intention.
I present all evidences that the Book of Gilgamesh and the Bible are very similar and explain why some details had changed (language and adaptation from Poly to Monotheism).
All what your so-called studies just do the same than you, thinking that repetition make truth. I read them (not all, I confess, too boring and all this non-sense…, in English and in French).

TR, for info, the Flood never happened. It is a tale, a Myth.
I do not give more value to the account of Gilgamesh or the one from the Bible.

You prefer to avoid reality and run away from contradiction in your own books in order to keep for faith. It is what I said from the start, and you prove my “predictions” true more than I was expecting, thanks.

[Pannonian]

“notice what he did there, he avoided all presented,made more baseless claims [jews copied] avoided the clear fact he had never read the two by his earlier statment made”.
Ahhh, now we are in the “smear” campaign… Hmm: I will make it clear (as I did but apparently TR English is becoming deficient): I read in FRENCH the Book of Gilgamesh.
Now, TR is so corned (and up-set) than he resorts to claim that I am lying, and he KNOWS my intention.
I present all evidences that the Book of Gilgamesh and the Bible are very similar and explain why some details had changed (language and adaptation from Poly to Monotheism).
All what your so-called studies just do the same than you, thinking that repetition make truth. I read them (not all, I confess, too boring and all this non-sense…, in English and in French).

TR, for info, the Flood never happened. It is a tale, a Myth.
I do not give more value to the account of Gilgamesh or the one from the Bible.

You prefer to avoid reality and run away from contradiction in your own books in order to keep for faith. It is what I said from the start, and you prove my “predictions” true more than I was expecting, thanks.

You can't blame total relism for being unfamiliar with reality, as he can't even spell the word.

[total relism]

You can't blame total relism for being unfamiliar with reality, as he can't even spell the word.

ad hominem

this thread is becoming disappointing, facts out the window and resulting in logical fallacies.

please let me in on this amazing reality,that can change creation accounts that differ greatly and change time and wording of them and go back in time and make one copy the other [yet change the whole thing,point,topic etc] i call it a fantasy,faith,not sure what,false maybe?.

[Pannonian]

ad hominem

this thread is becoming disappointing, facts out the window and resulting in logical fallacies.

please let me in on this amazing reality,that can change creation accounts that differ greatly and change time and wording of them and go back in time and make one copy the other [yet change the whole thing,point,topic etc] i call it a fantasy,faith,not sure what,false maybe?.

It would be hard to charge you with logical fallacy. One would have to sort through your numerous grammatical fallacies first before one can make out what kind of logical argument you're trying to put forward.

[Kadagar_AV]

OK, who gave TR the link to the logical fallacies??

[total relism]

I just started reading the bible. I got as far as Genesis 1.29. Cool. I'm off to plant some ganga and opium.

but more important, do it seem similar to the account of Gilgamesh ?. Coming from someone who enjoyed the fruits of god creation alittel to much....... i swear by it, but does pot cause slight Hallucinations for yourself? i say yes, but many say not true, it did for me.

“notice what he did there, he avoided all presented,made more baseless claims [jews copied] avoided the clear fact he had never read the two by his earlier statment made”.
Ahhh, now we are in the “smear” campaign… Hmm: I will make it clear (as I did but apparently TR English is becoming deficient): I read in FRENCH the Book of Gilgamesh.
Now, TR is so corned (and up-set) than he resorts to claim that I am lying, and he KNOWS my intention.
I present all evidences that the Book of Gilgamesh and the Bible are very similar and explain why some details had changed (language and adaptation from Poly to Monotheism).
All what your so-called studies just do the same than you, thinking that repetition make truth. I read them (not all, I confess, too boring and all this non-sense…, in English and in French).

TR, for info, the Flood never happened. It is a tale, a Myth.
I do not give more value to the account of Gilgamesh or the one from the Bible.

You prefer to avoid reality and run away from contradiction in your own books in order to keep for faith. It is what I said from the start, and you prove my “predictions” true more than I was expecting, thanks.

I am sorry i never meant to [never did imo] attack you in any way. I cannot believe you did read the epic in any language [maybe if you dont know french lol] given your claims made, that is all i have to go buy. I have learned those who deny god, often lie whenever they feel it helps [after all no reason not to, 10 commandments are not from god there is no absolute morale law saying dont lie] so when you say

"""the Bible one takes all the details from the Sumerian one, thousand years after, translated in several languages""

i can only take you at your word, given this and other claims to me its clear you have never read either [up to know likely].

you said
"I present all evidences that the Book of Gilgamesh and the Bible are very similar and explain why some details had changed (language and adaptation from Poly to Monotheism"


i presented them both,showing extreme dissimilarities,showing hebrew was first,showing that the claim you make is baseless, you posted neither of them, just claimed they were the same for all to trust you. Many [and i] showed that even if hebrew was later, it still does nothing to prove your claim. As that can be exspalined in other ways. Difrences happen as i sited article, because both come from earlier historic monotheistic thought, that was changed by Babylonians later..

you said
TR, for info, the Flood never happened. It is a tale, a Myth


Begging the question
another baseless claim with no support, you are very good with these. You will have your chance to support this in upcoming thread. But as will be true there as well, your worldview [not evidence] drives your conclusions.



you said
You prefer to avoid reality and run away from contradiction in your own books in order to keep for faith. It is what I said from the start, and you prove my “predictions” true more than I was expecting, thanks.


clear "red herring
no idea what your referring to,but let me guess, a atheist website or phd told you there was contradictions, they gave what seem to be, you enjoyed the conclusion and accepted by faith without looking into it [just as with these accounts and comparisons you clearly did not read] . You run away from clear truth to keep your faith as you have shown.