responding to common objections to bible part 7

[HoreTore]

Please don't blatantly twist my words. In saying "their own history" I do not mean to say that they wrote it independently of God.

The bottom line is this - the fact that the Biblical account of the flood is preceded by a Sumerian one does not definitively prove that the Biblical account was not inspired by God.

All quite irrelevant, since a global flood is proven false by geology, as well as common sense.

[Brenus]

"clear reason brenus avoids my other link on this very topic, it refutes his claims that isreal copied from any other local belief.” I don’t avoid other link, you just expose why I don’t take them seriously. You are telling that you refute bla bla bla. So you refute that the Bible copied from the Sumerian Legends, so you avoid reality/facts in order to keep your faith. You just confirm what I said from the start. See, even I was able to make a prediction: “he (as he will probably do) dodges the question.”

“The bottom line is this - the fact that the Biblical account of the flood is preceded by a Sumerian one does not definitively prove that the Biblical account was not inspired by God.” Yes it does. As the description in the Sumerians Myths preceding the Bible accounts provides different names to the Deities and humans involved in the story. If others spoke of it before, God can’t inspire the wording of a known story.

This of course without the knowledge of what HoreTore just highlight: The Deluge (global one) never happened. I was generous in conceding a local reality enlarged to a Mythic History (as we don’t know if the Sumerian did believe in it or if it was just a story for the long winter nights without TV, local version of Scary Movies).

[total relism]

EDIT

sorry i almost let myself be brought in to off topic talk [flood stories].

brenus, if you believe yourself to be true in what you claim, please go post on my thread were that is topic, i will gladly reply there. Also if willing, please provide your case/evidence for your beliefs [jews copied] as well.

[Rhyfelwyr]

All quite irrelevant, since a global flood is proven false by geology, as well as common sense.

Meh, often minor changes in our understanding of the sciences can place entire scientific narratives in a whole different light. This is true for geology, biodiversity, migrations, population growth, the boat-making capacities of ancient peoples, and many other controversies associated with the flood. I'm not a geologist and I'm not going to make geological arguments, but I believe in time that the scientific understanding will come to be in line with the Biblical one.

A Biblical young earth theory still makes more sense to me than the scientific account. Why did agriculture begin at more or less the same time across the whole world regardless of climate, technology or social arrangements, at around 10,000 BC? Why were humans milling around for hundreds of thousands of years before this happened? Why does all civilization begin at around 10,000 BC? Why were humans just another endangered species until this point? At around 10,000 BC, out of supposedly hundreds of thousands of years wandering around as little better than apes, why do humans all over the world, with no contact with each other and living in hugely different circumstances, suddenly develop agriculture, civilization, and explode in population?

I am genuinely asking this because it is something I have been thinking about and it is not even an argument I have seen being made by fundamentalist Christians. But science does not seem to explain this coincidence.

Yes it does. As the description in the Sumerians Myths preceding the Bible accounts provides different names to the Deities and humans involved in the story. If others spoke of it before, God can’t inspire the wording of a known story.

Right, so the Sumerian story is in fact 100% historically accurate, and the Biblical account is therefore wrong because it doesn't match the Sumerian account?

Your reasoning here is bizarre. At the time the Bible was composed, the flood (real or not) was something that had happened in a far and distant past. It stands to reason that many civilizations would give their own account of it, and no doubt attribute their gods as having some role in it. In turn, the Hebrews gave their own account. Why must the Hebrews write of this first in order for their writings to be inspired by God?

[HoreTore]

But science does not seem to explain this coincidence.

Science doesn't explain it, or you simply do not know the science?

The rise of agriculture coincides with the end of the ice age. Perhaps these two events are related, and perhaps there are scientific theories explaining it.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Science doesn't explain it, or you simply do not know the science?

The rise of agriculture coincides with the end of the ice age. Perhaps these two events are related, and perhaps there are scientific theories explaining it.

Yeah I know I looked into that, and knew that would be brought up. The thing is we are talking about completely disconnected peoples growing all sorts of different crops in completely different climates - much of the world was suitable for some sort of agriculture even during the last glacial period. Please explain why we record agriculture as beginning at around 7,000 BC in Papua New Guinea, 10,000 BC in Mexico, 5-8,000 BC in South America, when these areas were all still temperate or tropical even during the maximum extent of the ice sheet during the last glacial period (a full 22,000 years ago, supposedly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:La...tation_map.png

[HoreTore]

Yeah I know I looked into that, and knew that would be brought up. The thing is we are talking about completely disconnected peoples growing all sorts of different crops in completely different climates - much of the world was suitable for some sort of agriculture even during the last glacial period. Please explain why we record agriculture as beginning at around 7,000 BC in Papua New Guinea, 10,000 BC in Mexico, 5-8,000 BC in South America, when these areas were all still temperate or tropical even during the maximum extent of the ice sheet during the last glacial period (a full 22,000 years ago, supposedly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:La...tation_map.png

A difference of 5000 years is more or less the same time...?

Anyway, it wasn't an instant thing either. As for why it happened in the first place, there are several hypothesis.

Anyhoo Rhy, can you think of a single instance where modern science has moved towards the bible instead of away from it?

Also, a rather long read about the flood. Long, but fun, so I recommend it.

[Jarmam]

What I want everyone to take away from this thread:

If your anti-scientific religious belief system is being challenged, your best strategy is to point at the assailant and say "but you're doing the same as I am...! Are too!". Best case scenario is that you win the jolly old "I know you are but what I am"-game so intellectually stimulating that it fuels thousands of de facto identical mudslinging contests.

Also I take pleasure in reading these, which I am quite sure makes me either malevolent or moronic. More importantly it means they are not irrelevant. Game on!

[total relism]

What I want everyone to take away from this thread:

If your anti-scientific religious belief system is being challenged, your best strategy is to point at the assailant and say "but you're doing the same as I am...! Are too!". Best case scenario is that you win the jolly old "I know you are but what I am"-game so intellectually stimulating that it fuels thousands of de facto identical mudslinging contests.

Also I take pleasure in reading these, which I am quite sure makes me either malevolent or moronic. More importantly it means they are not irrelevant. Game on!

you said
"If your anti-scientific religious belief system is being challenged"


I hope your not referring to me, if so please show me were this happened, if your referring to epic of gilgamesh, I will ask you read my post that provide links to refute the claim, as i have done many times to the thread were that is on topic and already discussed.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...nal&highlight=


if it is not to me or that, than i am a idiot and am sorry.

[Rhyfelwyr]

A difference of 5000 years is more or less the same time...?

Anyway, it wasn't an instant thing either. As for why it happened in the first place, there are several hypothesis.

5,000 years (I noticed you went with the maximum figure, 2-3 is equally likely) is nothing out of a supposed history of hundreds of thousands of years. As for the link on Chinese ice age farming, I don't doubt people take time to settle into an agricultural lifestyle, my point was that, globally-speaking, the advent of agriculture is pretty instantaneous.

The second link reaffirms my point - it seems that climate change, demographics, habitat etc cannot explain such a sudden advent of farming throughout the world, since these things varied hugely from place to place.

I will check out your other link etc tomorrow running out of time here...

[Papewaio]

Advantage.

Once farming showed it was at an advantage it spread.

Having said that nomadic lifestyles still exist for instance there is about half a million nomadic pastoralists in Tibet alone.

Advantages where they exist spread quickly. So where farming gave an advantage is generally when there is consistent seasons and a semi-harsh environment meaning that farming is a safer option then nomadic lifestyle.

[Tuuvi]

5,000 years (I noticed you went with the maximum figure, 2-3 is equally likely) is nothing out of a supposed history of hundreds of thousands of years. As for the link on Chinese ice age farming, I don't doubt people take time to settle into an agricultural lifestyle, my point was that, globally-speaking, the advent of agriculture is pretty instantaneous.

The second link reaffirms my point - it seems that climate change, demographics, habitat etc cannot explain such a sudden advent of farming throughout the world, since these things varied hugely from place to place.

I will check out your other link etc tomorrow running out of time here...

Looks like we both posted at the same time. A few thousand years might not seem too long in the grand scheme of things, but remember the average human lifespan is only 60-70 years. 5,000 years is a long time.

Also as I mentioned before the invention of agriculture only happened in a few places. Farming was not invented by everyone. To give an example, the main crops of North American agriculture were maize, beans, and squash, all of which were domesticated in Southern Mexico. This is one small region, inhabited by only a few different cultures, in a vast continent with hundreds of different peoples. In most places agriculture wasn't invented, it was adopted.

[Ironside]

5,000 years (I noticed you went with the maximum figure, 2-3 is equally likely) is nothing out of a supposed history of hundreds of thousands of years. As for the link on Chinese ice age farming, I don't doubt people take time to settle into an agricultural lifestyle, my point was that, globally-speaking, the advent of agriculture is pretty instantaneous.

It's not hundreds of thousands of years.

It's about 50.000-45.000 years. The creative explosion is quite important and shows a significant leap. One of the better theories for that one is that grandparents started to become common. Better experience accumulation, generational knowledge transfer and more time to do something else than food gathering and taking care of the children.

And really, it's not uncommon with great leaps happening relativly suddenly. It happens often in evolutionary history. It's just hard to track down why.

“In short, the fact that there is a Sumerian flood story does not falsify the belief that the Bible is an inspired text.” So your point is the inspired by God text has mistaken the names of the protagonists and number of Gods involved in it. So God made mistakes as forgetting under which names and number he/she did it and to whom… Interesting theories! She/he could have a sense of humour as well, doubtfully, but possible.

Ofcourse he has humour. He did intentionally lose most of his followers after having 100% of them in more or less direct contact with him. I mean the Bible is full of draconic counter meassurements God implemented as soon as He got questioned. And that was a mere fickle of His glorious powers.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Anyhoo Rhy, can you think of a single instance where modern science has moved towards the bible instead of away from it?

Moving from "Steady State" to "Big Bang"

Cookie please.

[Tuuvi]

“In short, the fact that there is a Sumerian flood story does not falsify the belief that the Bible is an inspired text.” So your point is the inspired by God text has mistaken the names of the protagonists and number of Gods involved in it. So God made mistakes as forgetting under which names and number he/she did it and to whom… Interesting theories! She/he could have a sense of humour as well, doubtfully, but possible.

Huh? No. Who says the Sumerian account had the details right or didn't deviate from what actually happened over time?

And it looks like you didn't read my paragraph about how the flood account wasn't directly inspired by God, as in God wasn't the one telling the story, either.

However, these datings do not seem to make sense to me with the historical narrative - because as I said why would they be milling around like apes for hundreds of thousands of years and then all suddenly, independent develop agriculture and civilization at pretty much the same time, despite living in completely different environments, in completely different conditions?

I don't know enough to answer your questions but I want to point out that living as a hunter gatherer does not equate to milling around like apes for hundreds of thousands of years.

Hunter Gatherers have culture and raise families just like "Civilized Man" does. They are/were Homo Sapiens after all.

Before the advent of agriculture, humanity spread across the globe, adapted to new climates and invented new technologies. It's not like nothing was going on before people started farming.

[Sigurd]

Moving from "Steady State" to "Big Bang"

*coughBOLLOCKScough*

[Tuuvi]

"clear reason brenus avoids my other link on this very topic, it refutes his claims that isreal copied from any other local belief.” I don’t avoid other link, you just expose why I don’t take them seriously. You are telling that you refute bla bla bla. So you refute that the Bible copied from the Sumerian Legends, so you avoid reality/facts in order to keep your faith. You just confirm what I said from the start. See, even I was able to make a prediction: “he (as he will probably do) dodges the question.”

“The bottom line is this - the fact that the Biblical account of the flood is preceded by a Sumerian one does not definitively prove that the Biblical account was not inspired by God.” Yes it does. As the description in the Sumerians Myths preceding the Bible accounts provides different names to the Deities and humans involved in the story. If others spoke of it before, God can’t inspire the wording of a known story.

This of course without the knowledge of what HoreTore just highlight: The Deluge (global one) never happened. I was generous in conceding a local reality enlarged to a Mythic History (as we don’t know if the Sumerian did believe in it or if it was just a story for the long winter nights without TV, local version of Scary Movies).

According to the Biblical narrative Noah and his family were the only ones who survived the flood. Over time Noah's descendants broke away from Jehovah worship (yes I know Jehovah is not the correct form) and founded their own religions and nations. So as Rhyfelwyr says it makes perfect sense that the Sumerians would have their own flood account alongside the Jewish one.

Also according to the Bible the Israelite religion was codified by Moses during the Exodus, but the Hebrews had already been worshiping Jehovah as Jehovah was the God of Abraham and Jacob, the founders of the Israelite nation. The book of Genesis, which contains the flood account, was purportedly written by Moses. When Moses was writing the flood account he would have been writing a story that had been passed down for generations. The flood story was not revealed by God the moment it was written down, it already existed.

In short, the fact that there is a Sumerian flood story does not falsify the belief that the Bible is an inspired text.

Yeah I know I looked into that, and knew that would be brought up. The thing is we are talking about completely disconnected peoples growing all sorts of different crops in completely different climates - much of the world was suitable for some sort of agriculture even during the last glacial period. Please explain why we record agriculture as beginning at around 7,000 BC in Papua New Guinea, 10,000 BC in Mexico, 5-8,000 BC in South America, when these areas were all still temperate or tropical even during the maximum extent of the ice sheet during the last glacial period (a full 22,000 years ago, supposedly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:La...tation_map.png

Agriculture began in the Americas much later than it did in Eurasia. Plant cultivation was only invented in 7 different places, if I remember right, and then it slowly spread to the rest of the world. Even today there are societies which do not practice agriculture and subsist on hunting and gathering.

Farming was actually a pretty miserable lifestyle compared to gathering. Farmers had to work longer and harder to obtain food and because they relied on only a few food sources they had worse nutrition and health than gatherers (I'm willing to bet that modern gatherers have better nutrition than Americans do). I believe the current hypothesis is that at first crop cultivation was only practiced on a small scale to supplement gathering. As time went on the population grew and people began to rely on farming more and more until hunting and gathering was no longer enough to sustain the population.

Agriculture did not lead to civilization overnight either. The first farmers lived in small communities that show no sign of divisions in wealth or status. Over time (hundreds or thousands of years) societies became more and more complex until they were what we would call "Civilization".