Should NATO be folded in favor of a European Union unified command?

[Kadagar_AV]

The Manchurian campaign of WW2 was probably the pinnacle of performance of the Russian Army. It's never been that kind of well oiled machine before or since. Winter War was not just a tactical but also a logistical nightmare. Same with the early months of WW2. Same with WW1 and Russo-Japanese war. Russian mentality overall is very prone to screwing things up and not caring. It's just the way they are.


Yes, actually. If he's kicked out of Crimea by force, Russians themselves will remove him from power. He'll be considered a disgrace no longer fit to rule Russia. As for us marching on Moscow? You don't ever march on Moscow, everybody knows that.

And people call me racist...

Anyway, Russians are much like you and me. They have a different history, but when I met them, I can relate.

It's not like they are Arabs or Africans.

They are white people from a modern state. They cherish the same beliefs you do at large, heck, in many questions Russia is WAY closer to USA than to Europe - gay rights as an example.

Stop falling for the propaganda. Visit Russia, you would be surprised.

[rvg]

And people call me racist...

Anyway, Russians are much like you and me. They have a different history, but when I met them, I can relate.

It's not like they are Arabs or Africans.

They are white people from a modern state. They cherish the same beliefs you do at large, heck, in many questions Russia is WAY closer to USA than to Europe - gay rights as an example.

Stop falling for the propaganda. Visit Russia, you would be surprised.

Oh get off your high horse. I was born and raised in Russia and intimately know those people. I'm as much of a Russian as any of them. I have earned my right to criticize them and to call things by their real names.

[Kadagar_AV]

Oh get off your high horse. I was born and raised in Russia and intimately know those people. I'm as much of a Russian as any of them. I have earned my right to criticize them and to call things by their real names.

Oh? Had no idea.

Your view still differ from mine though.

[Hax]

Oh get off your high horse. I was born and raised in Russia and intimately know those people. I'm as much of a Russian as any of them. I have earned my right to criticize them and to call things by their real names.

This was satisfying to read.

[Brenus]

"I have earned my right to criticize them and to call things by their real names." In doing what exactly did you EARN these rights?

"If we were to wipe out a few land divisions in Crimea in the event that he doesn't leave after referendum, he may get the picture." And what is you are wiped out? Or if after having wiped out the Russians, the locals start to shoot at you as YOU will be the invaders in Crimea? Do you kill them all and change the populace that refuses to do what you want? Because all the pro-war are avoiding one point: what do the locals want? Crimea is a autonomous Province with Parliament. So, will you impose a dictatorship on Crimea?

[Kadagar_AV]

"I have earned my right to criticize them and to call things by their real names." In doing what exactly did you EARN these rights?

Being there?

I think his statement is idiotic, but I can't flame his personal opinion on life experience.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh get off your high horse. I was born and raised in Russia and intimately know those people. I'm as much of a Russian as any of them. I have earned my right to criticize them and to call things by their real names.

Wait, I thought you were a Syriac Christian?



Regardless, I feel that Panzer's "it's not our business" isolationism - sorry mate but you fit the historical pattern perfectly - proves my point.

You could end up with a real idiot in the White House who thinks that millions of people in dozens of democratic countries have no geo-political value.

[rvg]

Wait, I thought you were a Syriac Christian?

I'm both. The fact I can speak Russian doesn't prevent me from also speaking Aramaic

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm both. The fact I can speak Russian doesn't prevent me from also speaking Aramaic

I deduce that you are in the CIA

[Flavius Aetius]

I'll give you a good reason to protect Europe: the dollar. It is our main export and our greatest contribution to the world economy. If any single country controls the European continent it will be able to ditch the dollar. EU with its Euro is not a threat because:
1. It's too decentralized
2. It's not our enemy

But that isn't how currency markets work. It also takes a child's view on the absurd size and heft of the dollar in the global economy. Frankly, this is sensationalist talk. Do you want to tell me about readopting the gold standard now?

As for Nato. Let us pretend that we can keep our bases there after we dissolve NATO (not that far fetched as they really are in everyone's interest). If you are an American you should be ready to throw NATO away with all of the other archaic global institutions that are still around from the Cold War. It is an absurd drain on US resources with very little return for the investment. Now, i'm not saying the Iraq War was right or wrong but the fact that not all NATO countries participated in even the invasion perfectly illustrated the raw, simplified value of the alliance for America. The simple fact of the matter is that the member nations of NATO need the US more than the US needs them. The Libyan conflict highlighted this when the euros needed to ask us for more munitions. At the end of the day NATO countries aren't going to demand we vacate our mutually beneficial bases in their countries if we leave or dissolve NATO but it will sure as hell save America quite a bit of coin.

Looking to the future American foreign policy needs to step off the idealist train and pay a little more attention to pragmatism because it isn't the 90's anymore. The gap between america and her rivals is closing and America needs to realize that new lines have been drawn in the sand. America needs to do an account of all of their proclaimed friends and realize that some of our old friends should be replaced.

(not you mama Britain we love you and the entire commonwealth even if we ran off when we were little)

[Greyblades]

But that isn't how currency markets work. It also takes a child's view on the absurd size and heft of the dollar in the global economy. Frankly, this is sensationalist talk. Do you want to tell me about readopting the gold standard now?

As for Nato. Let us pretend that we can keep our bases there after we dissolve NATO (not that far fetched as they really are in everyone's interest). If you are an American you should be ready to throw NATO away with all of the other archaic global institutions that are still around from the Cold War. It is an absurd drain on US resources with very little return for the investment. Now, i'm not saying the Iraq War was right or wrong but the fact that not all NATO countries participated in even the invasion perfectly illustrated the raw, simplified value of the alliance for America. The simple fact of the matter is that the member nations of NATO need the US more than the US needs them. The Libyan conflict highlighted this when the euros needed to ask us for more munitions. At the end of the day NATO countries aren't going to demand we vacate our mutually beneficial bases in their countries if we leave or dissolve NATO but it will sure as hell save America quite a bit of coin.

Looking to the future American foreign policy needs to step off the idealist train and pay a little more attention to pragmatism because it isn't the 90's anymore. The gap between america and her rivals is closing and America needs to realize that new lines have been drawn in the sand. America needs to do an account of all of their proclaimed friends and realize that some of our old friends should be replaced.

(not you mama Britain we love you and the entire commonwealth even if we ran off when we were little)

I might not agree with all you have to say, but I feel obligated to thank you for being one of the the few backroom newcomers in the last year or so that hasnt been fricking nuts.

[Strike For The South]

Regardless, I feel that Panzer's "it's not our business" isolationism - sorry mate but you fit the historical pattern perfectly - proves my point.

You could end up with a real idiot in the White House who thinks that millions of people in dozens of democratic countries have no geo-political value.

Preach

A fascist bully, is a fascist bully and I will not let our own imperfections cloud that.

[Husar]

A fascist bully, is a fascist bully and I will not let our own imperfections cloud that.

That's the problem with the wolf who kept crying wolf or so.

Is a democratic bully better than a fascist bully and do the ones being bullied care?
Is torture by democratic states less torturous?

Europe didn't attack the USA for invading Iraq, why should Europe attack Russia for invading Ukraine?
We should offer them troops to keep the insurgency down. Oh wait, there probably won't be an insurgency because they're actually welcome.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's the problem with the wolf who kept crying wolf or so.

Is a democratic bully better than a fascist bully and do the ones being bullied care?
Is torture by democratic states less torturous?

Europe didn't attack the USA for invading Iraq, why should Europe attack Russia for invading Ukraine?
We should offer them troops to keep the insurgency down. Oh wait, there probably won't be an insurgency because they're actually welcome.

Putin is still worse.

Our leaders sometimes oppress people - it's Putin's MO, and not just filthy foreigners, either - he opresses Godd Russians too. Never mind the bad Russians.

[Husar]

Because the USSR deported the Tartars to Uzbekistan where tens of thousands of them died and replaced them with ethnic Russians.

Yeah, but that was long ago, doesn't count as I was told. Certainly not Putin's fault.
Noone is blaming Bush for killing the Indians either.

But oh wait, the US invaded Iraq, boohoo.

But oh wait, the Russians annexed Crimea, boohoo.
I mean why should it bother me if Iraq shouldn't?
More people died in the Iraq episode than in Crimea. Way more, so many it's not even funny.
Tell me how Crimea is more of a human tragedy or even a human tragedy at all. How many people had their faces burnt by Molotovs in Crimea and how many in Kiev? Do faces burn with pleasure when neo nazis throw them in the name of freedom and democracy?

I'm still not saying Crimea is a-okay, I'm asking why some people want to start WW3 over it and get their moral outrage meter up far higher than I think is warranted at this point.

Bah, I'm letting your trolling get to me.

CR

If it doesn't agree with American moral superiority, it has to be trolling, yeah right...

Putin is still worse.

Our leaders sometimes oppress people - it's Putin's MO, and not just filthy foreigners, either - he opresses Godd Russians too. Never mind the bad Russians.

So he's just like the many dictators we supported over the years and still support, but he is bad because he's not our puppet?
Israel oppresses a lot of people and we still support it, it's a democracy but the arabian population often doesn't see that as a big plus when they are treated as second class citizens again. And they take land that other people live on and expell them.