View Poll Results: Should NATO be folded in favor of a European Union Defense Command?
NATO should be folded in favor of a Unified European Defense Command
8
33.33%
NATO should be folded, but no unified European comand is requied
6
25.00%
NATO should be maintained as is.
3
12.50%
NATO should be expanded to include all of NA and Europe.
7
29.17%
Voters: 24. This poll is closed
ICantSpellDawg 12:30 15/03/14
Originally Posted by Husar:
Pretty much what Brenus said. The German army is being sized down to turn it into some small airmobile force that can be used all around the world to pretend that we're important because we can support conflicts like Afghanistan better because due to this one single conflict everybody thought it would be the only kind of conflict we get from now on. Turns out we may have to defend our Russian friends from US-led aggression instead and a light airmobile force won't do in that scenario.
During the cold war perhaps, now you stress our budgets by begging us to support your adventures to secure your oil empire.
Defend your Russian friends? You are a nut. Wherever you are getting your news from; get your money back.
But anything that causes Germany to foot the bill for its own protection, I am in favor of it. Your action in Afghanistan has helped keep your military from atrophying. Also, a NATO ally was attacked by the government of Afghanistan, lest you remember.
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
Also, a NATO ally was attacked by the government of Afghanistan, lest you remember.
Wherever you are getting your news from; get your money back.
ICantSpellDawg 13:03 15/03/14
Wait a sec. Affiliates of the Taliban in Afghanistan who were trained and supported by the Afghan government hijacked flights and used them as missiles into areas of civilian congregation. They can say whatever they want after the fact, but they were held responsible. The Government supported the terrorism that let to a massive loss of life in the US. What part did I get wrong?
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
Wait a sec. Affiliates of the Taliban in Afghanistan who were trained and supported by the Afghan government hijacked flights and used them as missiles into areas of civilian congregation. They can say whatever they want after the fact, but they were held responsible. The Government supported the terrorism that let to a massive loss of life in the US. What part did I get wrong?
I have never heard the argument that they trained them, only that they "harbored" them and refused to hand them out.
It's a fact that the CIA trained them though. And the pilots took flying lessons in the US, studied in Germany.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/160681...n-not-al-qaeda
Originally Posted by :
When Al Qaeda arrived in Afghanistan from Sudan around 1996, says Kuehn, its membership was not more than 30. Al Qaeda fighters, and the growing number of recruits who came to Afghanistan from elsewhere, kept apart from Taliban fighters, who resented Al Qaeda, and there was a great deal of animosity between the two. Osama bin Laden insisted that international actions against the United States and other countries was crucial to his strategy, while Mullah Omar opposed such actions, says Kuehn.
“You guys foot the bills?” We paid for your bombs falling on Serbia, and we paid for the reconstruction.
“Also, a NATO ally was attacked by the government of Afghanistan”: Nope. A terrorist organisation based in Afghanistan did. That is why you built Guantanamo jail, as the Taliban didn’t get the status of Prisoners of War hence being protected by Geneva Conventions.
If fact, the US, in this occasion, did as Austrian-Hungarian Empire did after Sarajevo attack by Gavrilo Princip.
So this is how it ends. Cow-towing to German bureaucrats and Russian thugs.
I say we take the English speaking countries and go home, it's clear the continent has thrown their lot in with Fascism & tyranny.
The boot of oppression will soon come down while all of you clamor about the hypocrisy of the USA. The yoke of subjugation will be placed around another generation of Slavs. The bully who was never really stopped will grow bolder
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
So this is how it ends. Cow-towing to German bureaucrats and Russian thugs.
I say we take the English speaking countries and go home
Do you mean most of Europe apart from France?
ICantSpellDawg 18:24 15/03/14
I don't think that Merkel is going to completely cave just yet. I hope not. This isn't the last of Putin's hubris. He will start a war and it will be a big one. That's what he wants
Originally Posted by Pannonian:
Do you mean most of Europe apart from France?
US
UK
CAN
NZ
AUS
The rest of the anglosphere will go through an application process
ICantSpellDawg 18:53 15/03/14
Slavs love America. Its just Serbs who hate us and it happens to be Serbs on these boards. German speaking people tend to resent Americans for doing the same thing to the Russians that we did to them. Its good to see that spite governs your actions more than your own territorial integrity. You will definitely have s wonderful life living under the Hegemony of an increasingly autocratic Russian despot who relives battles from history in real time
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
Slavs love America. Its just Serbs who hate us and it happens to be Serbs on these boards. German speaking people tend to resent Americans for doing the same thing to the Russians that we did to them. Its good to see that spite governs your actions more than your own territorial integrity. You will definitely have s wonderful life living under the Hegemony of an increasingly autocratic Russian hegemony who relives battles from history in real time
The sad part is that Russia won't hesitate to crush the Serbs if the need arises. Ukrainians are far closer to Russians than Serbs will ever be, but that didn't stop Putin.
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
Slavs love America. Its just Serbs who hate us and it happens to be Serbs on these boards. German speaking people tend to resent Americans for doing the same thing to the Russians that we did to them. Its good to see that spite governs your actions more than your own territorial integrity. You will definitely have s wonderful life living under the Hegemony of an increasingly autocratic Russian hegemony who relives battles from history in real time
I am the one who is many.
Don't feel bad about it, it's nothing personal, we hate a lot of countries.
US, UK, CAN, NZ, AUS: All these European Nations…
“The sad part is that Russia won't hesitate to crush the Serbs if the need arises. Ukrainians are far closer to Russians than Serbs will ever be, but that didn't stop Putin.” So Putin will finish the job you started?
Mind you, Putin didn’t “crush” Crimea did he? USA liberating Iraq did it with far more damages for the civilian population, not speaking of the siege of Fallujah…
Originally Posted by Brenus:
So Putin will finish the job you started?
Bah, Americans think they're hot stuff and think they can pick a fight with us. Just ask the other nations that tried to pick a fight with us, ask them how it was. Ask the Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Habsburg Empire, Third Reich, Soviet Union... Oh, that's right, you can't - they don't exist any more!!! [EVILLAUGH]Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha...[/EVILLAUGH]
Who is us?
Originally Posted by rvg:
Who is us?
United States, but not so capitalised.
Kadagar_AV 20:35 15/03/14
I think Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania would be somewhat worried if NATO broke up.
Poland is somewhat too much EU-back garden for Russia to dare attack anytime soon though.
Originally Posted by rvg:
Who is us?
Serbs, naturally.
ICantSpellDawg 20:46 15/03/14
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
Serbs, naturally.
The Serbs have been disgraced around the world. I know Serbians who tell everyone that they are Yugoslav because of what the Serbs did to the nations who were trying to rebuild away from their control. Nobody is picking fights with Serbs because you don't kick a dying dog.
No offense, but it would be depressing to still live in Serbia or the Serbian Republic in Bosnia. Living in the past and tilting at windmills isn't going to maker Serbia better.
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
The Serbs have been disgraced around the world. I know Serbians who tell everyone that they are Yugoslav because of what the Serbs did to the nations who were trying to rebuild away from their control. Nobody is picking fights with Serbs because you don't kick a dying dog.
No offense, but it would be depressing to still live in Serbia or the Serbian Republic in Bosnia
None taken. And I agree - it would be depressing if you lived in Serbia.
ICantSpellDawg 20:50 15/03/14
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
None taken. And I agree - it would be depressing if you lived in Serbia.
I see what you did there.
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
I don't think that Merkel is going to completely cave just yet. I hope not. This isn't the last of Putin's hubris. He will start a war and it will be a big one. That's what he wants
That's complete buffergobble. You kept scaring us of the red tide for >50 years and it never came. After the Cold War we found out that they never really wanted to attack after Stalin and even took quite a few actions to prevent a huge (nuclear) war.
The US stationed nuclear missiles all around the USSR in rather close proximity and when they tried the same on Cuba, the US threw a hissy fit and threatened to destroy the world. The USA finance a number of politically active NGOs in Russia and Russia pays none in the USA, but Russia is the aggressive one here. Yeah, right...
Not to forget that not all Russians support Putin and he may actually lose a lot more support if he starts conquering countries left and right because Russians also like to think of themselves as the good guys. If we start handing him excuses left and right, we just make it easier for him. Starting a war is a pretty good excuse. If he does go much further I might agree with you, but so far he has just made some steps towards joining Crimea to Russia, where a majority want to be Russian anyway. But maybe if he conquers all of Europe, we can finally get our own internet and become free from Big Brother and his total surveillance. And a 13% flat income tax also sounds pretty nice...
Originally Posted by Tiaexz:
That would be a lot of garrisons in the country.. or we could have an EU one, and we export/import eachothers soldiers into our respective countries for the same reasons you just stated.
Well, for one thing that wouldn't include the US - and it's important to generate US outrage early when Russia starts it's invasion. That's why you need US troops on the borders, not lots, but enough that Russia has to attack them in the first instance.
Also, you can't just "export/import" units, you have to embed them. Any meaningful deployment would need to be measured in years, preferably a couple of decades before the unit is rotated out. There are places in Germany (or were) British soldiers don't want to see bombed, specific curry houses, or strip clubs, or brothels. That sort of thing.
It's about building a long-term attachment to another place, not integrating us into one European nation - in fact that would currently run counter to any effort to defend against Russian aggression.
Originally Posted by Brenus:
“NATO should be disbanded.” Agree. NATO being a USA tools, I don’t see why Europeans should foot the bills and sent troops to reinforced USA expansion war(s) in Afghanistan, Iraq or others. If the US is happy to send young men and women dying to protect or expend their market, fine. Why we should finance it or contribute to as it serves no purpose in European Countries point of view?
If European Countries needs defence there are enough Military Factories, knowledge and experience in this side of the pound, and just leave the USA deal with their Military-Industrial Complex. Following the USA left European countries believing in “Missile Shield” and “Special Forces” things when we need tanks, air-planes, boats, submarines, aircraft carriers with planes on it and boots.
Europe can't match the Russian military muscle, or access to raw materials, and we need to OVEWRMATCH them in any case.
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
I'm not an isolationist. I'm the exact opposite of that. Why do you think I'm an isolationist?
I must be thinking of someone else.
Originally Posted by Husar:
Pretty much what Brenus said. The German army is being sized down to turn it into some small airmobile force that can be used all around the world to pretend that we're important because we can support conflicts like Afghanistan better because due to this one single conflict everybody thought it would be the only kind of conflict we get from now on. Turns out we may have to defend our Russian friends from US-led aggression instead and a light airmobile force won't do in that scenario.
You mean the Russian friends under Putin Facist boot?
I thought the Germans had got that message about Facism, but you seem to have missed the memo. It's a bad thing, Husar.
Originally Posted by :
During the cold war perhaps, now you stress our budgets by begging us to support your adventures to secure your oil empire.
Afghanistan was revenge and Iraq was for daddy.
Aside from GWB - who was the last US president to use NATO to draw Germany into a ground war?
Oh - and your military need reforming, your soldiers are starting to get fat and sedentary, although to be fair that took six decades longer than it would have taken any other nation with the exception of the Swiss.
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
So this is how it ends. Cow-towing to German bureaucrats and Russian thugs.
I say we take the English speaking countries and go home, it's clear the continent has thrown their lot in with Fascism & tyranny.
The boot of oppression will soon come down while all of you clamor about the hypocrisy of the USA. The yoke of subjugation will be placed around another generation of Slavs. The bully who was never really stopped will grow bolder
Quite so - the US is far from awesome, but Putin is a Tyrant and he needs to be checked for everybody's sake, especially Russia's
"Europe can't match the Russian military muscle" Europe would have if Europe wouldn't have been following USA doctrine and stupid so-call war on terror. Now, I agree with you. Europe is no match for Russia nor USA for this matter, as Obama is very well aware. How many units were rushed in Poland... 2 AWACS. Whao, I feel much better.
"about Fascism": I think you should look at the definition of Fascism.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
Europe can't match the Russian military muscle, or access to raw materials, and we need to OVEWRMATCH them in any case.
Good luck, could rather start a referendum to join the Russian Federation.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
You mean the Russian friends under Putin Facist boot?
I thought the Germans had got that message about Facism, but you seem to have missed the memo. It's a bad thing, Husar.
I suppose you mean Fa
scism, as Brenus said, you might want to look up more than the spelling though.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
Afghanistan was revenge and Iraq was for daddy.
Oh that's a cute excuse, I bet all the dead civilians are willing to forgive it now.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
Aside from GWB - who was the last US president to use NATO to draw Germany into a ground war?
Oh - and your military need reforming, your soldiers are starting to get fat and sedentary, although to be fair that took six decades longer than it would have taken any other nation with the exception of the Swiss.
GWB is enough, it was certainly enough to kickstart these army reforms for future "world improvement campaigns".
Our new defense ministress wants to turn the army into a family friendly job creator so if we ever oppose Russia, we can only fight while the babysitters have time.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
Quite so - the US is far from awesome, but Putin is a Tyrant and he needs to be checked for everybody's sake, especially Russia's
The USA declared us a nation that requires strong surveillance, wire-tapped our chancellor and treat us all like criminals. And when we complain, they go "well, come and stop us *trolololol*". If I'm supposed to see them as our friends, maybe that was not the most helpful behavior.
Putin is not a tyrant, he is the elected president of the largest country on earth, show some respect.
ICantSpellDawg 22:34 15/03/14
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
Quite so - the US is far from awesome, but Putin is a Tyrant and he needs to be checked for everybody's sake, especially Russia's
Ugh. If this is the underlying reason for the push to war, then I'm strongly against. We have no business caring about Russia for their sake. If they want the tyranny of Putin, then it's their privilege to have him. I think LibDem evangelists are as bad as other fundamentalists, except maybe they're worse as they have access to bigger and readier arsenals with which to spread their beliefs.
Originally Posted by Husar:
Putin is not a tyrant, he is the elected president of the largest country on earth, show some respect.
Such an intellectual. Can't wait to read your enlightening thesis on why overt authoritarianism will be the great liberator from the American panopticon.
“Such an intellectual. Can't wait to read your enlightening thesis on why overt authoritarianism will be the great liberator from the American panopticon.” Can I remind you that the last 20 years, the very democratic USA started more wars than the Russian Dictatorship? I am not a big lover of Putin, but things have to be said.
"That sounds like nowhere but Putin's Russia" You were referring to Germany, that was Nazism.
Originally Posted by Brenus:
“Such an intellectual. Can't wait to read your enlightening thesis on why overt authoritarianism will be the great liberator from the American panopticon.” Can I remind you that the last 20 years, the very democratic USA started more wars than the Russian Dictatorship? I am not a big lover of Putin, but things have to be said.
The west doesn't start wars, it introduces freedom for the oppressed subject people's sake.
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
These people are using hypernationalistic violence against unarmed citizens. This is different from Kiev. In Kiev citizens used violence against the armed and oppressive state. Do you see the difference?
Originally Posted by Pannonian:
Did we find out in the end who it was that ordered their snipers to fire?
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
I have no idea. The snipers had a right to fire to protect others from bodily harm. Some police could have just had enough, independent of an order.
Single Sign On provided by
vBSSO