What are your cheapest core units to defeat Rome?

[kdrakak]

Hmm I always though that it was too easy :Lot's of money and really good troops.

It is too easy, but it's really fun to play if you role play and take your time.

[QuintusSertorius]

It is too easy, but it's really fun to play if you role play and take your time.

As people should know by now, I only ever take my time. I have no interest whatsoever in blitzing and finishing the game in 50 turns. I spent 50 turns just getting started in my migrated-Epeiros Bosporan Kingdom game.

Mostly what puts me off is being faced with stacks of not even remotely historical Romans (all Triarii, or all Leves), deployed in an ahistorical way too (a double line, no hint of a quincunx). Also the mix of Camillian and Polybian troops later on as they don't disband anything.

[kdrakak]

As people should know by now, I only ever take my time.

Very sorry... I didn't know... by now. But is that historically accurate? Did Quintus Sertorius take his time?

[QuintusSertorius]

Very sorry... I didn't know... by now. But is that historically accurate? Did Quintus Sertorius take his time?

Quintus Sertorius didn't have a lot of time! :)

I think I've talked myself out of a Qart-Hadast game already. I just like the Greek roster, especially in random places that don't have formal factions (Massalia, Pergamon, the Bosporan Kingdom, Kyrene, Syrakousai, etc) in EB1.

[zenisar]

Out of interest, are these Camillian or Polybian legions? Keltohellenikoi seem pretty well-matched to Camillian Hastati and even Principes, but the heavier-armoured Polybian variants are much more durable.

In my previous Arverni campaign, I focused more on role-playing, expanded slower, just enjoying game. So that when I invaded Italy between 230-220 BC fighting Romani, my Bataroas/Botroas faced already Polybian legions. At that time, also for roleplaying, I focused more on Celtic units and rather skipped Celto-Hellenic units, using them fron necessity only. In order to compensate the lightly armored regular Celtic infantry, I used the combo of smith / temple / field of games, boosting Bataroas from attack 10 / defence 20 to 13/23 stats. Plus giving the general some experience chasing rebels before engaging in any serious campaign against Romani.

In this Arverni campaign, just for a change, I wanted to rush more, expand faster in all directions, particularly to Italy, in order to fully assimilate conquered regions (as the Celts miss the highest tier cities). Sack Roma on the way, following Brennus in 390 BC. Reaching Sicily and Gibraltar ASAP. That was the plan anyway.

The year is 246 BC. Until now, I united Gaul though being slowed down by crappy economy and under-populated cities, delaying Celtic reforms even further. The Aedui are still alive and kicking, holding Mediolanum, fielding also Gaesatae quite frequently, attacking Massilia and Viennos. The Sweboz expanded towards Belgium, holding half of it. I allied with them, in the hope the war on this front could be postponed few decades, as expansion in this direction is currently not in my interest. And my economy cannot bear to feed another army.

In the meantime, I got distracted from my plan by treacherous QH attacking Emporion, having to divert my troops into Hispania. Among the strategic difficulties playing Arverni, aside from crappy economy and low population, is the necessity to (sooner or later) wage war on 3 fronts against up to 5 factions.

This time, fortunately, at least the Romani diverted from their usual attacks on Massilia for the time being (temporary relief, for sure), and focused their attention on expansion north-east, taking Patavium and later Segesta (hopefully). Since the year is 246 BC, they still field Camillan legions. The proportion of Triarii and Pedites Extraordinarii starts to worry me. Sooner or later, my lightly armored Celtic units will have to face them, and the outlook to protracted melee is not promising ...



The repeated Aedui attacks starts to get annoying, I am thinking on wiping them out soon. Perhaps, while they besiege Massilia, I could mount a surprise attack on Mediolanum via the Alps. Since Mediolanum is their only region, this would finish them off. What do you think?

[zenisar]

Personally, I find it difficult to fight Romans as Gauls without axemen or other AP infantry. Reason being, Triarii (especially Camillan era), Pedites Extraordinarii, and Polybian Principes are very difficult to kill if all you have is spearmen and swordsmen. Sure, you have slingers and lancers for an AP punch, but they can't slug it out in melee. And slingers are notoriously bad at killing 4+ shield units from the front, and difficult to manoeuver around on the battlefield. Plus it's lame to spam those units. While Bataroas are the main killer unit in Gallic armies, you should always bring some Appea Gaedotos or Teceitos, or even Tekastos or Asturian axemen when fighting Romans.

Yep, similar experience here. As far as I can remember from my previous Arverni campaign, units like Triarii and Pedites Extraordinarii always stood in the melee for very long time, and were among the last to break and rout.

Regarding Celtic Slingers, I fought a tight battle against Aedui near Massilia last night. First, I was actually losing, until my 2 FMs sandwiched enemy general and killed him. That turned the battle in my favor, initiating a multiple routs. With slingers, I focused their fire solely on a unit of enemy Gaesatae, though the kills were rather dissapointing, reducing their numbers from 120 down to 90 only until they ran out of ammo. Next time I will focus their fire on enemy general instead.

[zenisar]

In my experience, barbarian armies in Europe have the combination of speed, stamina and enhanced charge bonus as their greatest combat advantage. They don't hold the line against the Romans or anyone else... most of the time there is no line. They can however run their way to victory through any plan. They can team up on individual units that will rout and eventually get to the ones that don't usually rout, such as the Triarii and Pedites. Furthermore, most barbarian infantry units have a +8 charge bonus, while there are "freaks" with +10 or even +12 at reasonable prices, coming soon to a store near you! Outrun! Outcharge! Barbarize Barbarorum!!!

Actually, my Bataroas held the line quite well, assuming I did not spread them too much but rather put their formation in multiple lines, reducing unit formation width but increasing unit depth. Though fighting with them usually requires a tactical trade-off to make: either let them stand and fire javelins (anf give up charge), or close and charge (and give up javelins). For both, there is usually not enough time before lines collide and melee starts.

[QuintusSertorius]

Don't wipe out the Aedui, transplant them somewhere else. If you're savvy with the move_character command and have Force Diplomacy installed, transplant them to Galatia (currently held by Pontos according to your campaign map) or Tylis (which looks rebel) or if you just want them out of the way, Ireland. Killing factions off is a waste, especially when they can become something else in another place.

[moonburn]

put them in the east and turn them into the boii give them segestica and that place with the druids and the cordinau orca

[BroskiDerpman]

Phalanxes are overpowered in EB SP. I'd load up on levy pikes and keep general near for morale. They can hold forever as long as morale is kept up.

[QuintusSertorius]

Regarding Celtic Slingers, I fought a tight battle against Aedui near Massilia last night. First, I was actually losing, until my 2 FMs sandwiched enemy general and killed him. That turned the battle in my favor, initiating a multiple routs. With slingers, I focused their fire solely on a unit of enemy Gaesatae, though the kills were rather dissapointing, reducing their numbers from 120 down to 90 only until they ran out of ammo. Next time I will focus their fire on enemy general instead.

Phalanxes are overpowered in EB SP. I'd load up on levy pikes and keep general near for morale. They can hold forever as long as morale is kept up.

In both instances, I edited the EDU to change all multi-hit point units (except elephants) back to 1. That includes Gaesatae/Tindanotae, elite phalanxes and Hypaspistai.

I don't find phalanxes to be particularly troublesome or overpowered once you do that.

[Ca Putt]

the Problems with Phalanxes are
most soldiers per unit
shield value of 5 in some cases multiplied.

Naked fanatics are though, yes, but even Skutjanz are quite efficient at dealing with them. Slingers are ok but not ideal. with Their laughable armour value the higher attack of the Archer is more usefull than the AP of the Slinger.
Slingers are great VS heavy Cav tho.
@Barbarians Holding a line:
imho both Dugunthiz and Bataroas are reasonably good lineholders, not as great as Haploi but still Long enough to fall in their flanks. Their Advantage clearly lies in the mass Charge but they do hold the ground for quite a while against non-shock troops.
So I'll stick with: the best cheap troops vs Romans are: ALL Slingers, Clubmen/axemen and lancers. in Order to pullit off however it's advisable to bind them with Spear infantry, Dugunthiz can do that but any Phalanx unit(both classic and Macedonian) preforms better.

I'd personally choose Dugunthiz over Bataroas vs romans tho, the Spears to a fair amout of damage to the chainmail clad Romani, while the swords are better suited to fight other "smelly barbarians", their both not armoured enough to not die from the Roman weapons, so you might aswell take some of them with you.

[Thoras]

I

n both instances, I edited the EDU to change all multi-hit point units (except elephants) back to 1. That includes Gaesatae/Tindanotae, elite phalanxes and Hypaspistai.

I don't find phalanxes to be particularly troublesome or overpowered once you do that.

There are no cavalry or infantry units with more than one hit points, eccept the Gaesatae and Tindanotae.
Argyraspides and other elite units have only one hit point.

[QuintusSertorius]

I
There are no cavalry or infantry units with more than one hit points, eccept the Gaesatae and Tindanotae.
Argyraspides and other elite units have only one hit point.

Did they have more hit points in 1.0 or 1.1? I remember it being an issue at one point, but it might have been in a previous version. Either way, I did edit the EDU so no units (bar elephants) have more than 1 hit point per man.

[Milnaht]

Actually fighting the roman heavies isn't all that hard: first you get some armored spearmen (those keltohellenikoi are great, but even hoplitai haploi can do the job). You put them in single line and on guard mode, let the romans tire themselves out attacking them (placing your line on a hill and/or in a forest will increase their durability). In the meantime your laosotae with your FMs (I usually have 4 slingers and 2 generals, in case one dies) should take out their cavalry, while your Bataroas should run around, throw javelins at their backs and charge If yo don't have enough money for a full invasionforce get some ships and raid their western cities, great way to break their economy and enhance yours, plus you won't have to worry about triarii and pedites for a while.

[zenisar]

Don't wipe out the Aedui, transplant them somewhere else. If you're savvy with the move_character command and have Force Diplomacy installed, transplant them to Galatia (currently held by Pontos according to your campaign map) or Tylis (which looks rebel) or if you just want them out of the way, Ireland. Killing factions off is a waste, especially when they can become something else in another place.

Regarding Aedui. well, unfortunately, I have to dissapoint you. The temptation was too strong, I could not resist. The brother of Arverni king set out on a campaign from Helvetis with 6 units of Bataroas, sneaked via Alpine passes unnoticed and besieged Mediolanum. Reiief Aedui army attacked, tough and hard-fought battle followed, resulting in heroic victory. The fate of Aedui, once mighty tribe and rulers of Gaul, was sealed in 2 seasons.

However, the idea of moving a faction to other location instead of wiping it out has some merit. For some time, I already think about occupying central Europe, role-playing Boii, and turn the whole continent of Europe into the "Europa Barbarorum" indeed. I am looking forward using Boii Swordsman as my core unit that are supposed to be professional experienced warriors, serving as mercenaries before. So I considered using Epeiros (for nicely looking cavalry), Aedui or Arverni (same culture). Though I never used the "move" command, and I am concerned whether this might corrupt the game campaign in any way?

[zenisar]

The world moved on. Arverni took Mediolanum and set a foothold in Italy. The risk of provoking Romani did not come and they stayed at peace for a few years, taking Segesta in the meantime. Arverni were busy taking remaining independent regions around Gallic homeland, particularly in Swabia/Bavaria. The Sweboz mishandled Belgic tribes who rebelled and were later subdued by Arverni chieftain, establishing favourite border on the Rhine. The Poeni were pushed further into Hispania where - out of desperation - they started war with Lusitani as well and - surprisingly - took some regions from them. As the time approched the year 240 BC and all the independent regions around were taken, Arverni feel ready to start campaigning against the Romani. However, the Romani still did not take Sicily, did not get Polybian reform, they still stick with Camillan units. So Arverni waited and enjoyed last few peaceful years ...

The Time of Bondsmen reforms came before 240 BC and curious thing happened. In the previous campaign, when the Time of Soldiers came, new barracks appeared and the old ones were still present but "damaged". I used to destroy the old barracks and got a lot of cash (high tens of thousands). This time, though, the old barracks stayed fully functional and I have to build a new ones. If I destroy the old barracks, I have to start building the new ones from scratch, i.e. from the lowest level. So I wonder what behavior is supposed to be the correct one?

Though there are so few new units in the Time of Bondsmen that the process of switching to the new barracks everywhere may not be worth the trouble. I have to say I like the way the reforms work for AS or Makedonia, where the new units simply appear in the roster among the old ones.

[moonburn]

yes it can corrupt the game

i once played around with all sort of comand consoles and one or more of them corrupted the campaign ...

when i played with the arverni i set forts on the mountain passes in the alps and in the pyrinees and on the river passes it costs you some cash but with the levy spearmen the time you get to move your single army around more then pays up for it

[zenisar]

War!

The year is 239. In winter, some rogue Romani attacked Mediolanum. Roman senate did not let the chance go and followed with full scale war effort, sending more and more troops. Brycham dArvern returned from the Danubius with 2/3 stack army, drove the rogues out and lifted the siege. Next turn, he was attacked by Roman general with 1/2 stack army and won easily. Then I felt pretty well!

A few turns later, the Romani put Mediolanum under siege again with another 1/2 stack army composed mostly of principes and triarii and led by 3-star general. Dear 1-star Brycham dArvern felt really annyoed. With a full stack army in Mediolanum at his disposal, he ordered sally and attacked. He charged and pressed the Romani with head-on attack, relying on 2:1 numerical superiority in men. Lines collided, men screamed and pushed against each other. After a while, first Celtic unit broke and routed. Then next and another. In a few moments, half army was in rout, the other half slaughtered. Brycham could not believe his eyes. He blew the trumpet, trying to stop his men but no no avail. The battle was lost.

Sun-c once said: "Numbers alone confer no advantage. Do not advance relying on sheer military power."

When I lost the first battle of Mediolanum, I was so shocked that I forgot to take any pictures. Having 2:1 superiority and expecting easy victory - and lose. It did not happen to me for very long time. My self-esteem was in ruin. In the past, I used to rely on quality troops like Pezhetairoi and Thorakitai rather than on any cheap rubble.

So I decided to re-play the battle again. This time, I will be maneuvering more carefully. And I did. The struggle was long and in the end I won the battle. But I was shocked again. In the aftermath, I lost 2/3 of my full stack army. Many units of Gaeroes or Botroas were reduced from 200 men to 50 only - and these were actually those that won their fights! Fortunately, Brycham had a Druidic Surgeon and one more chirurgeon-type in retinue, so the numbers in the campaign map were back to about 1/2 of the stack. But there are 2 full-stack armies of mixed composition approaching from Patavium and several small armies are waiting around Bononia to join the fight. I absolutely cannot afford such losses. I start to understand how victorious Pyrrhos felt after Herakleia and Asculum.

Look at the picture: there is a unit of Camillan Triarii surrounded by 3 Celtic units (Gaeroas, Botroas, Caturige). I think a 4th unit of Botroas or Garoas joined the fun later. How do you think this particular fight ended?

[Thoras]

They got butchered ;)? Use AP troops and let them attack the rear ,using light armored spearmen against Triarii is a waste.
Btw. why isn't your genereal moving ,he should charge the rear or flank.

[QuintusSertorius]

Regarding Aedui. well, unfortunately, I have to dissapoint you. The temptation was too strong, I could not resist. The brother of Arverni king set out on a campaign from Helvetis with 6 units of Bataroas, sneaked via Alpine passes unnoticed and besieged Mediolanum. Reiief Aedui army attacked, tough and hard-fought battle followed, resulting in heroic victory. The fate of Aedui, once mighty tribe and rulers of Gaul, was sealed in 2 seasons.

However, the idea of moving a faction to other location instead of wiping it out has some merit. For some time, I already think about occupying central Europe, role-playing Boii, and turn the whole continent of Europe into the "Europa Barbarorum" indeed. I am looking forward using Boii Swordsman as my core unit that are supposed to be professional experienced warriors, serving as mercenaries before. So I considered using Epeiros (for nicely looking cavalry), Aedui or Arverni (same culture). Though I never used the "move" command, and I am concerned whether this might corrupt the game campaign in any way?

You can't easily do a migrated faction game without using the move_character command; it takes a long time to walk to the new location in which time you may have lost your original homeland, and been wiped out already. I would have said use the Casse for a migrated Celt game, but their FMs have crappy chariots for bodyguards. So whichever you prefer of Aedui/Arverni as the Boii or Kingdom of Tylis.

It won't corrupt the game as long as you're careful with how you use it. Moving someone who was engaged in a siege, or out of a settlement (that creates an invisible clone which really borks things) will cause problems, but nothing else will. I've done it time and again and had games run on a long time. The real issue is finding the internal names of characters from certain factions. Greek ones are easy, barbarians are trickier and Romani are the most annoying of all.

yes it can corrupt the game

i once played around with all sort of comand consoles and one or more of them corrupted the campaign ...

As long as you are careful with it, it won't. Moving your own stuff in particular is safe.

[zenisar]

They got butchered ;)? Use AP troops and let them attack the rear ,using light armored spearmen against Triarii is a waste.
Btw. why isn't your genereal moving ,he should charge the rear or flank.

The quiz question: believe it or not, the Triarii won the fight! I considered this fight onthe right flank over, so I paid my attention elsewhere. Then after a while when I looked back all Celtic units were reduced to 1/4 of the original strength and in rout while the Triarii were approaching the center eager to join fight there ...

Regarding the general: in the 1st battle of Mediolanum, once I moved the general to the flanking maneuver. the center line started to collapse and units in rout. So this time I kept him behin the center line in order to boost morale and only later he started to attack Roman heavy infantry from the back.

[zenisar]

3rd Battle of Mediolanum



Just another full stack Roman army besieged Mediolanum, mixed of 1/2 Roman units like Principes, Triarii and Pedites Extraordinarii, the other 1/2 of Gallic and Illyrian auxiliaries. This time, Brycham dArvern had also some Gaesatae. The battle was tight again, a half of my Celtic units were in rout at one moment. But they usually stopped a few tens of meters behind battle line and could be sent back to fight. Then some Roman units started to rout as well, and I was able to spread the moral hit to surrounding Roman units. So apparently the low morale is a common problem for most Celtic units.

The other problem is apparently lack of armour. When the battle lines approached and units started to exchange volleys of javelins, some units of Gaeroas were reduced to 1/4 of their original strength after just a few shots while their opposing Roman Principes had only negigible losses.

[zenisar]

1st Battle of Massilia



Here the center line is held by 4 units of Massilian Hoplite. They served well though the losses were high. On the other hand, the opposing army had very little true Roman units but many mercenaries and auxiliaries.

[Thoras]

The quiz question: believe it or not, the Triarii won the fight! I considered this fight onthe right flank over, so I paid my attention elsewhere. Then after a while when I looked back all Celtic units were reduced to 1/4 of the original strength and in rout while the Triarii were approaching the center eager to join fight there ...

I meant that your units got butchered ,as I said using light spearmen against Triarii is a waste.Even if they win they take far too much losses.
It's best to pin them down and then use shock cavalry or ap troops to break them.

Regarding the general: in the 1st battle of Mediolanum, once I moved the general to the flanking maneuver. the center line started to collapse and units in rout. So this time I kept him behin the center line in order to boost morale and only later he started to attack Roman heavy infantry from the back.

Hmm that's why I don't play with celts their morale is damn low.

[moonburn]

you need to go on the offenssive if you had a fortified rhine and pyrinees and had the mines in the alps you could probably be swimming in money and afford 2 to 3 armies with those 3 armies you could be on the offenssive wich enables you to set a defensive line of weak troops and flank the romans with your more elitish troops such as the axeman or the swordman or your horseman even leucos epos are great they outmanouver their enemies and then just stand on their back shooting them with javelins that normally breaks the least strong roman units and then with 3-4 units keep on charging their backs until they break

if the roman cavalry goes at you engage them with 2 or 3units to lovk them down wich gives time for your general to get there and kill the roman general once he breaks the leucos can outrun the roman cavalry so they can´t escape and die
if they still got javelins when they rout turn the shoot at will it will even be more effective when chassing down the roman cavalry

also leucos epos enables you to hunt down their more elite units i never let princeps or triarii escape when they batle againt me i always runned them down

leucos epos and their ligurian equivalents are cheap and available as mercearies

i also have a population control policy so everytime a city goes over 12.000 citizens i turn it into an army recruitment center so merge some units and send the stacks composed of 2-25 men each into those towns to retrain them (i once took 3.000 citizens out of viennos or gergovia in 1 turn replenishing my army of eduii but it allowed me to rebuild my army and free massilia from a roman stack) actully you should consider having small armies like that of depleted troops so you can boost your military power in no time and control your population levels on diferent cities

also play on huge the diference and immersion is brutal and since i macro control freak the hability to control your population is a plus for me i go around sending levy spearmen all over to replenish some cities populations particulary when you have border forts and forts in all major passed in your lands you can get 1 unit of levy spearman from the carnutes homeland to emporium in no time by just changing the unit you recruit in x that recruited unit go to border fort to fort to city to fort to the destined city

not the same unit ofc but a similar unit

also the remi give great cavalry and belgiums are great lineholders imho experience and their swordman aren´t half bad at flanking and kicking the roman infantry butt (wierdly not from the front only from the back or the sides ... )

[QuintusSertorius]

I've been inspired to resume my Massalia game; I just love using Keltohellenikoi, and the "Epirote" ones have these cool green tartan cloaks. I've only got a couple of units of them in my army, but they're more than adequate to deal with mostly-unarmoured Celts.

I have Greek governments in Massalia, Alalia and Emporion, with client kingdoms in Tolosa and Burdigala.

[zenisar]

I've been inspired to resume my Massalia game; I just love using Keltohellenikoi, and the "Epirote" ones have these cool green tartan cloaks. I've only got a couple of units of them in my army, but they're more than adequate to deal with mostly-unarmoured Celts.

How did you get Epeiros to Massilia? Did you apply this "move" command, or migrate by ship in-game?

I have Greek governments in Massalia, Alalia and Emporion, with client kingdoms in Tolosa and Burdigala.

In client kingdoms, do you also recruit Celtic Vollorix unit? This is similar to Neitos in stats, just available anytime. If so, is it a general, or a regular field infantry unit?

[QuintusSertorius]

How did you get Epeiros to Massilia? Did you apply this "move" command, or migrate by ship in-game?

With the move_character command; I disband my navy (and elephants) immediately upon starting the game. I also move Helenos Aiakides to Dalminion to besiege it alone, so I can suicide him when the defenders sally out.

Epirote characters are easy, their visible names are the same as their internal names. Open the console (with `), remove the fog of war with toggle_fow so you can see where they're going, then move the cursor over where you want to move them to and type show_cursorstat to get co-ordinates. Then enter move_character "Pyrrhos Aiakides" x,y or move_character "Captain [whateverhisnameis]" x,y to teleport them to where they need to go.

When finished type toggle_fow again to return to normal view.

I also edited the EB\Data\text\expanded_bi.txt file so that all the labels say "Massalia" rather than "Epeiros", and changed the colour scheme (in EB\Data\descr_sm_factions.txt) so they're blue, rather than green (I also change the Ptolemies to yellow rather than gold, so they're distinctly contrasted from Seleukid silver). If you just want the files already edited, PM me an email address and I'll give you a copy of mine. I'd highly recommend downloading the Force Diplomacy mod and the "b" version of the City Mod (to at least give you a settlement-cap advantage over the Aedui/Arverni).

Once I've got Massalia, I let my original settlements revolt (I destroy my government buildings in each, but don't touch anything else) and disband most of my troops for the long rebuilding of my economy. I use the process_cq Massalia to rush-build some equivalent infrastructure to what was in the settlements I've abandoned (usually a port upgrade and blacksmith, along with some barracks so I can at least recruit a garrison).

It may seem like a lot of rigmarole, but once you're set up in Massalia, that's pretty much it.

In client kingdoms, do you also recruit Celtic Vollorix unit? This is similar to Neitos in stats, just available anytime. If so, is it a general, or a regular field infantry unit?

Yes, I make them type IV governments and recruit a Celtic Lesser King/Vollorix. They're a general who a turn after recruitment, if left in a type IV settlement, become a Client Ruler. I make a point of only putting Celtic units in them, though they may temporarily start with a Greek garrison. To spare their populations, I usually do the recruiting of their Gallic garrisons in Massalia, which has people to spare by then.

EDIT: On a related note, I've been having some interesting times while intervening on behalf of my ally, SPQR, against the Qarthadastim. Interesting in terms of struggling a little to cope with all the armour they bring. Finally kicked them off Sicily with this battle:



Heroic Victory because of the difference in quality of troops, rather than numbers. One unit of Hoplitai got very badly chewed up fighting Elite Pikemen, but never wavered. Those Brihentin are a waste of money, I think I'll disband them when I get back, Leuce Epos are more useful and cheaper. Barring the Iberians as special AP-unit, it's all Greek/Celtic. I took a special trip to Sicily earlier on specifically to hire those Kretans, there's not a decent archer anywhere else in the western Med.

[moonburn]

if i was any good with the console i would play a syrakousai game just for the hell of it