What are your cheapest core units to defeat Rome?

[moonburn]

go with germn baseball bats they are cheap and effective

[kdrakak]

Carthage has all you need and you don't even have to think about cavalry too much. And you can throw in a few elites whose upkeep won't break your economy since they won't be coming to Rome from very far. Roman infantry is cheap and well armored. The best and surest way to deal is the typical frontal infantry engagement coupled with a cavalry charge to the flank or rear. Any other scheme takes too much effort and micromanagement. The Carthaginian roster's core mix is the obvious solution.

[QuintusSertorius]

Carthage has all you need and you don't even have to think about cavalry too much. And you can throw in a few elites whose upkeep won't break your economy since they won't be coming to Rome from very far. Roman infantry is cheap and well armored. The best and surest way to deal is the typical frontal infantry engagement coupled with a cavalry charge to the flank or rear. Any other scheme takes too much effort and micromanagement. The Carthaginian roster's core mix is the obvious solution.

Funny you mention Qart-Hadast, some of their core roster are imitations of the same Greek units I mentioned upthread, meaning you can mix and match/replace with mercenaries as you go. Hanatim Libim (Libyan Spearmen) are Thureophoroi/Keltohellenikoi and Dorkim Libi-Ponnim (Liby-Phoenician Infantry) are Classical Hoplitai. As an aside, Hanatim Libim Kdedim (Libyan Heavy Spearmen) are Thorakitai.

Balaeric Slingers are even better than Iaosatae.

[Bodeni]

Siluri skirmishers and Cwmyr. Supported by Belgian cavalry of course...

[zenisar]

First, I played some campaigns with diadochi (AS, Makedonia). When facing Romans on battlefield, it happened several times that they massed all their Principes infantry in the centre. After a while of pushing the mass on my solid line of pikemen, even the core Pezhetairoi lost numbers in the few criticial center units that broked and fled. My cavalry flanking maneuvres were then not the usual winning strike any more but rather securing just some kind of a draw ...

Later on in my Arverni campaign, I used Bataroas (Northern Gallic Swordsmen) as the core, complemented with a unit of Solduros, a unit of Gaesatae, plus some light cavalry. That usually worked fine, almost never losing battles. The FM reached Italy from the north on his avenger trip via the Alps. Later on, I built second army around slightly cheaper Botroas (Southern Gallic Swordsmen) in order to make logistics easier and took off on the route from Massilia to Italy. To my surprise, I was defeated on multiple occassions, and forced to rebuild this army again and again.

Then I started to wonder what units will do just fine and what units will not ... curious about your experience?

[QuintusSertorius]

First, I played some campaigns with diadochi (AS, Makedonia). When facing Romans on battlefield, it happened several times that they massed all their Principes infantry in the centre. After a while of pushing the mass on my solid line of pikemen, even the core Pezhetairoi lost numbers in the few criticial center units that broked and fled. My cavalry flanking maneuvres were then not the usual winning strike any more but rather securing just some kind of a draw ...

A significant part of the problem is that you're playing on Hard battle difficulty; the bonuses given to the AI virtually negate the problems they should be having going at a phalanx from the front.

Otherwise I'd say don't rely solely on your cavalry to flank, Thureophoroi/Thorakitai are much more mobile than your phalanxes, and equal to the task of matching Romans in melee.

Later on in my Arverni campaign, I used Bataroas (Northern Gallic Swordsmen) as the core, complemented with a unit of Solduros, a unit of Gaesatae, plus some light cavalry. That usually worked fine, almost never losing battles. The FM reached Italy from the north on his avenger trip via the Alps. Later on, I built second army around slightly cheaper Botroas (Southern Gallic Swordsmen) in order to make logistics easier and took off on the route from Massilia to Italy. To my surprise, I was defeated on multiple occassions, and forced to rebuild this army again and again.

Then I started to wonder what units will do just fine and what units will not ... curious about your experience?

The standard Celtic units don't have armour, which means they can't survive prolonged melee with well-armoured Romans. The only common, non-elite Celtic unit that fits the bill are Keltohellenikoi who are great in numbers for holding the centre. Certainly better suited than Botroas/Bataroas or Gaeroas/Gaelaiche. Otherwise you're into elites like Solduros or Neitos.

[moonburn]

the northern gaul swordman is already elite as it is they are a kind of carnutes and i do love them greatly even tough they tend to drive me to the red more often then not

[kdrakak]

Funny you mention Qart-Hadast, some of their core roster are imitations of the same Greek units I mentioned upthread, meaning you can mix and match/replace with mercenaries as you go. Hanatim Libim (Libyan Spearmen) are Thureophoroi/Keltohellenikoi and Dorkim Libi-Ponnim (Liby-Phoenician Infantry) are Classical Hoplitai. As an aside, Hanatim Libim Kdedim (Libyan Heavy Spearmen) are Thorakitai.

Balaeric Slingers are even better than Iaosatae.

It's the cavalry that makes the difference. I love the Hellenic rosters too, but cheap core units to defeat the Romans are to be found more readily in Carthage. Besides... Xanthippos may join the fight so you get the best of both worlds! :)

[QuintusSertorius]

It's the cavalry that makes the difference. I love the Hellenic rosters too, but cheap core units to defeat the Romans are to be found more readily in Carthage. Besides... Xanthippos may join the fight so you get the best of both worlds! :)

True, they do have a much better cavalry choice than any of the Greek factions. One thing they do miss are Peltastai, who are extremely useful and cheap, but they're a mercenary unit widely available, so not a big deal.