What are your cheapest core units to defeat Rome?

[zenisar]

The world moved on. Arverni took Mediolanum and set a foothold in Italy. The risk of provoking Romani did not come and they stayed at peace for a few years, taking Segesta in the meantime. Arverni were busy taking remaining independent regions around Gallic homeland, particularly in Swabia/Bavaria. The Sweboz mishandled Belgic tribes who rebelled and were later subdued by Arverni chieftain, establishing favourite border on the Rhine. The Poeni were pushed further into Hispania where - out of desperation - they started war with Lusitani as well and - surprisingly - took some regions from them. As the time approched the year 240 BC and all the independent regions around were taken, Arverni feel ready to start campaigning against the Romani. However, the Romani still did not take Sicily, did not get Polybian reform, they still stick with Camillan units. So Arverni waited and enjoyed last few peaceful years ...

The Time of Bondsmen reforms came before 240 BC and curious thing happened. In the previous campaign, when the Time of Soldiers came, new barracks appeared and the old ones were still present but "damaged". I used to destroy the old barracks and got a lot of cash (high tens of thousands). This time, though, the old barracks stayed fully functional and I have to build a new ones. If I destroy the old barracks, I have to start building the new ones from scratch, i.e. from the lowest level. So I wonder what behavior is supposed to be the correct one?

Though there are so few new units in the Time of Bondsmen that the process of switching to the new barracks everywhere may not be worth the trouble. I have to say I like the way the reforms work for AS or Makedonia, where the new units simply appear in the roster among the old ones.

[moonburn]

yes it can corrupt the game

i once played around with all sort of comand consoles and one or more of them corrupted the campaign ...

when i played with the arverni i set forts on the mountain passes in the alps and in the pyrinees and on the river passes it costs you some cash but with the levy spearmen the time you get to move your single army around more then pays up for it

[QuintusSertorius]

Regarding Aedui. well, unfortunately, I have to dissapoint you. The temptation was too strong, I could not resist. The brother of Arverni king set out on a campaign from Helvetis with 6 units of Bataroas, sneaked via Alpine passes unnoticed and besieged Mediolanum. Reiief Aedui army attacked, tough and hard-fought battle followed, resulting in heroic victory. The fate of Aedui, once mighty tribe and rulers of Gaul, was sealed in 2 seasons.

However, the idea of moving a faction to other location instead of wiping it out has some merit. For some time, I already think about occupying central Europe, role-playing Boii, and turn the whole continent of Europe into the "Europa Barbarorum" indeed. I am looking forward using Boii Swordsman as my core unit that are supposed to be professional experienced warriors, serving as mercenaries before. So I considered using Epeiros (for nicely looking cavalry), Aedui or Arverni (same culture). Though I never used the "move" command, and I am concerned whether this might corrupt the game campaign in any way?

You can't easily do a migrated faction game without using the move_character command; it takes a long time to walk to the new location in which time you may have lost your original homeland, and been wiped out already. I would have said use the Casse for a migrated Celt game, but their FMs have crappy chariots for bodyguards. So whichever you prefer of Aedui/Arverni as the Boii or Kingdom of Tylis.

It won't corrupt the game as long as you're careful with how you use it. Moving someone who was engaged in a siege, or out of a settlement (that creates an invisible clone which really borks things) will cause problems, but nothing else will. I've done it time and again and had games run on a long time. The real issue is finding the internal names of characters from certain factions. Greek ones are easy, barbarians are trickier and Romani are the most annoying of all.

yes it can corrupt the game

i once played around with all sort of comand consoles and one or more of them corrupted the campaign ...

As long as you are careful with it, it won't. Moving your own stuff in particular is safe.

[zenisar]

3rd Battle of Mediolanum



Just another full stack Roman army besieged Mediolanum, mixed of 1/2 Roman units like Principes, Triarii and Pedites Extraordinarii, the other 1/2 of Gallic and Illyrian auxiliaries. This time, Brycham dArvern had also some Gaesatae. The battle was tight again, a half of my Celtic units were in rout at one moment. But they usually stopped a few tens of meters behind battle line and could be sent back to fight. Then some Roman units started to rout as well, and I was able to spread the moral hit to surrounding Roman units. So apparently the low morale is a common problem for most Celtic units.

The other problem is apparently lack of armour. When the battle lines approached and units started to exchange volleys of javelins, some units of Gaeroas were reduced to 1/4 of their original strength after just a few shots while their opposing Roman Principes had only negigible losses.

[zenisar]

1st Battle of Massilia



Here the center line is held by 4 units of Massilian Hoplite. They served well though the losses were high. On the other hand, the opposing army had very little true Roman units but many mercenaries and auxiliaries.

[Thoras]

The quiz question: believe it or not, the Triarii won the fight! I considered this fight onthe right flank over, so I paid my attention elsewhere. Then after a while when I looked back all Celtic units were reduced to 1/4 of the original strength and in rout while the Triarii were approaching the center eager to join fight there ...

I meant that your units got butchered ,as I said using light spearmen against Triarii is a waste.Even if they win they take far too much losses.
It's best to pin them down and then use shock cavalry or ap troops to break them.

Regarding the general: in the 1st battle of Mediolanum, once I moved the general to the flanking maneuver. the center line started to collapse and units in rout. So this time I kept him behin the center line in order to boost morale and only later he started to attack Roman heavy infantry from the back.

Hmm that's why I don't play with celts their morale is damn low.

[moonburn]

you need to go on the offenssive if you had a fortified rhine and pyrinees and had the mines in the alps you could probably be swimming in money and afford 2 to 3 armies with those 3 armies you could be on the offenssive wich enables you to set a defensive line of weak troops and flank the romans with your more elitish troops such as the axeman or the swordman or your horseman even leucos epos are great they outmanouver their enemies and then just stand on their back shooting them with javelins that normally breaks the least strong roman units and then with 3-4 units keep on charging their backs until they break

if the roman cavalry goes at you engage them with 2 or 3units to lovk them down wich gives time for your general to get there and kill the roman general once he breaks the leucos can outrun the roman cavalry so they can´t escape and die
if they still got javelins when they rout turn the shoot at will it will even be more effective when chassing down the roman cavalry

also leucos epos enables you to hunt down their more elite units i never let princeps or triarii escape when they batle againt me i always runned them down

leucos epos and their ligurian equivalents are cheap and available as mercearies

i also have a population control policy so everytime a city goes over 12.000 citizens i turn it into an army recruitment center so merge some units and send the stacks composed of 2-25 men each into those towns to retrain them (i once took 3.000 citizens out of viennos or gergovia in 1 turn replenishing my army of eduii but it allowed me to rebuild my army and free massilia from a roman stack) actully you should consider having small armies like that of depleted troops so you can boost your military power in no time and control your population levels on diferent cities

also play on huge the diference and immersion is brutal and since i macro control freak the hability to control your population is a plus for me i go around sending levy spearmen all over to replenish some cities populations particulary when you have border forts and forts in all major passed in your lands you can get 1 unit of levy spearman from the carnutes homeland to emporium in no time by just changing the unit you recruit in x that recruited unit go to border fort to fort to city to fort to the destined city

not the same unit ofc but a similar unit

also the remi give great cavalry and belgiums are great lineholders imho experience and their swordman aren´t half bad at flanking and kicking the roman infantry butt (wierdly not from the front only from the back or the sides ... )

[zenisar]

War!

The year is 239. In winter, some rogue Romani attacked Mediolanum. Roman senate did not let the chance go and followed with full scale war effort, sending more and more troops. Brycham dArvern returned from the Danubius with 2/3 stack army, drove the rogues out and lifted the siege. Next turn, he was attacked by Roman general with 1/2 stack army and won easily. Then I felt pretty well!

A few turns later, the Romani put Mediolanum under siege again with another 1/2 stack army composed mostly of principes and triarii and led by 3-star general. Dear 1-star Brycham dArvern felt really annyoed. With a full stack army in Mediolanum at his disposal, he ordered sally and attacked. He charged and pressed the Romani with head-on attack, relying on 2:1 numerical superiority in men. Lines collided, men screamed and pushed against each other. After a while, first Celtic unit broke and routed. Then next and another. In a few moments, half army was in rout, the other half slaughtered. Brycham could not believe his eyes. He blew the trumpet, trying to stop his men but no no avail. The battle was lost.

Sun-c once said: "Numbers alone confer no advantage. Do not advance relying on sheer military power."

When I lost the first battle of Mediolanum, I was so shocked that I forgot to take any pictures. Having 2:1 superiority and expecting easy victory - and lose. It did not happen to me for very long time. My self-esteem was in ruin. In the past, I used to rely on quality troops like Pezhetairoi and Thorakitai rather than on any cheap rubble.

So I decided to re-play the battle again. This time, I will be maneuvering more carefully. And I did. The struggle was long and in the end I won the battle. But I was shocked again. In the aftermath, I lost 2/3 of my full stack army. Many units of Gaeroes or Botroas were reduced from 200 men to 50 only - and these were actually those that won their fights! Fortunately, Brycham had a Druidic Surgeon and one more chirurgeon-type in retinue, so the numbers in the campaign map were back to about 1/2 of the stack. But there are 2 full-stack armies of mixed composition approaching from Patavium and several small armies are waiting around Bononia to join the fight. I absolutely cannot afford such losses. I start to understand how victorious Pyrrhos felt after Herakleia and Asculum.

Look at the picture: there is a unit of Camillan Triarii surrounded by 3 Celtic units (Gaeroas, Botroas, Caturige). I think a 4th unit of Botroas or Garoas joined the fun later. How do you think this particular fight ended?

[Thoras]

They got butchered ;)? Use AP troops and let them attack the rear ,using light armored spearmen against Triarii is a waste.
Btw. why isn't your genereal moving ,he should charge the rear or flank.

[zenisar]

They got butchered ;)? Use AP troops and let them attack the rear ,using light armored spearmen against Triarii is a waste.
Btw. why isn't your genereal moving ,he should charge the rear or flank.

The quiz question: believe it or not, the Triarii won the fight! I considered this fight onthe right flank over, so I paid my attention elsewhere. Then after a while when I looked back all Celtic units were reduced to 1/4 of the original strength and in rout while the Triarii were approaching the center eager to join fight there ...

Regarding the general: in the 1st battle of Mediolanum, once I moved the general to the flanking maneuver. the center line started to collapse and units in rout. So this time I kept him behin the center line in order to boost morale and only later he started to attack Roman heavy infantry from the back.