Org Mobile Site
You could measure brain activity.
Then see which process goes from alive to death with minimal stress to the animal.
I after all want to die like my grandfather did. Peacefully asleep unlike his car passengers.
Then see which process goes from alive to death with minimal stress to the animal.
I after all want to die like my grandfather did. Peacefully asleep unlike his car passengers.
Originally Posted by Papewaio:
You could measure brain activity.
Then see which process goes from alive to death with minimal stress to the animal
Been done, stress can't be meassured as they are in a place they don't know, but pain can. Especially cows suffer a lot with the halal/kosher method.You could measure brain activity.
Then see which process goes from alive to death with minimal stress to the animal
Shooting pin is best, instantly braindead (it's not failsafe)
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
...It's 2014, time to leave folklore and witchcraft behind us. No?
But folklore has always contained practical wisdom as well as blind ignorance....It's 2014, time to leave folklore and witchcraft behind us. No?
Witchcraft is a religion.
You tend to view all religion as a fiction, Kadagar, thus making it easy for you to dismiss the adherence to outdated methods of animal slaughter is needless cruelty. For you, nothing is "sacred" in the literal sense, and therefore you do not deem any such practice as defensible.
As a Catholic, the need for Halal or Kosher slaughter method is neither here nor there to me. Animal cruelty to me is abhorrent because it: usually isn't necessary and can therefore be deemed as wasteful and enjoying such cruelty is usually a sign of some personality weakness/disorder on the part of the human involved.
On the other side of the coin, I have listened to PETA spokespeople arguing that we need to respect the basic "humanity" of all animals.
They almost seem to view humanity as an intrusion upon the natural order instead of an apex predator/scavenger (omnivorous variant). Such an attitude is silly.Originally Posted by Papewaio:
You could measure brain activity.
Then see which process goes from alive to death with minimal stress to the animal.
I after all want to die like my grandfather did. Peacefully asleep unlike his car passengers.
That's what both of the studies I mentioned did, but they arrived at completely opposite conclusions apparently. The one that concludes halal is fine is from the seventies though, but on the other hand it was conducted by Germans (+20% science bonus). The New Scientist also picks it up in the end and mentions that the stunning may not have functioned properly during the German study.You could measure brain activity.
Then see which process goes from alive to death with minimal stress to the animal.
I after all want to die like my grandfather did. Peacefully asleep unlike his car passengers.
However, that should not disqualify the results of the German study regarding the halal slaughter, as the result there was that the animals don't really feel anything before they become unconscious from lack of oxygen in the brain. The new study did not arrive at that conclucion, but it also uses methods that seem "experimental".
nwm.
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
But folklore has always contained practical wisdom as well as blind ignorance.
Witchcraft is a religion.
You tend to view all religion as a fiction, Kadagar, thus making it easy for you to dismiss the adherence to outdated methods of animal slaughter is needless cruelty. For you, nothing is "sacred" in the literal sense, and therefore you do not deem any such practice as defensible.
As a Catholic, the need for Halal or Kosher slaughter method is neither here nor there to me. Animal cruelty to me is abhorrent because it: usually isn't necessary and can therefore be deemed as wasteful and enjoying such cruelty is usually a sign of some personality weakness/disorder on the part of the human involved.
On the other side of the coin, I have listened to PETA spokespeople arguing that we need to respect the basic "humanity" of all animals. They almost seem to view humanity as an intrusion upon the natural order instead of an apex predator/scavenger (omnivorous variant). Such an attitude is silly.
Wait, what?But folklore has always contained practical wisdom as well as blind ignorance.
Witchcraft is a religion.
You tend to view all religion as a fiction, Kadagar, thus making it easy for you to dismiss the adherence to outdated methods of animal slaughter is needless cruelty. For you, nothing is "sacred" in the literal sense, and therefore you do not deem any such practice as defensible.
As a Catholic, the need for Halal or Kosher slaughter method is neither here nor there to me. Animal cruelty to me is abhorrent because it: usually isn't necessary and can therefore be deemed as wasteful and enjoying such cruelty is usually a sign of some personality weakness/disorder on the part of the human involved.
On the other side of the coin, I have listened to PETA spokespeople arguing that we need to respect the basic "humanity" of all animals.
They almost seem to view humanity as an intrusion upon the natural order instead of an apex predator/scavenger (omnivorous variant). Such an attitude is silly.You have no idea of the grounds to my belief system.
As an example, I find life to be sacred. With that said, I should stress to note that I find respectful killing of animals to be OK.
I don't however, much like nor respect industrial slaughter without any sense of respect towards the animal, for feeding people who put half the animal in the garbage pile or incinerator.
I also find other things sacred, but contrary to others I don't whip my belief out and shove it down others throats... Read enough of my posts on a deeper level, and I am sure a belief system will emerge. Including sacred things.
I'll give you another hint: Mountains.
I see myself more like an alpine priest than a ski instructor.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
I also find other things sacred, but contrary to others I don't whip my belief out and shove it down others throats.
I see myself more like an alpine priest than a ski instructor.
I LOL'dI also find other things sacred, but contrary to others I don't whip my belief out and shove it down others throats.
I see myself more like an alpine priest than a ski instructor.
Originally Posted by The Stranger:
I LOL'd
Elaborate, please?I LOL'd
EDIT:
1. I teach people respect for the mountain.
2. I show people the fun side of life.
3. I make people see another perspective of life.
4. I enhance peoples abilities.
5. I am there for anyone distressed, be it clients or others.
6. I make people go above what they thought was their ability.
7. I make people come in contact with nature in a way they previously have not.
I'm not saying I am a catholic priest by any means. Still though, I do my thing and enhance people. So what exactly is it that you laugh about?
EDIT 2:
The people I teach generally come back year after year, and they often report having made life-changes...
Don't get me wrong, I am no priest... I am just a guy who absolutely love the mountains, and do my best to share that love with others.
I'm not a ski instructor anymore, but when I was... I must say it was an honour to get paid for translating my love of the mountains to others, it was like handing them a gift package straight to their soul :)
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
I also find other things sacred, but contrary to others I don't whip my belief out and shove it down others throats
Erm, you've been complaining long and loud about what's happening in a foreign country. If that's not imposing your beliefs on others, I don't know what is.I also find other things sacred, but contrary to others I don't whip my belief out and shove it down others throats
i disagree. kad doesnt impose his beliefs on others, he simply ridicules and "excommunicates" those who dont share his. Which is the step that comes before imposing beliefs on others. Hesnt quite there yet.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
Elaborate, please?
EDIT:
1. I teach people respect for the mountain.
2. I show people the fun side of life.
3. I make people see another perspective of life.
4. I enhance peoples abilities.
5. I am there for anyone distressed, be it clients or others.
6. I make people go above what they thought was their ability.
7. I make people come in contact with nature in a way they previously have not.
I'm not saying I am a catholic priest by any means. Still though, I do my thing and enhance people. So what exactly is it that you laugh about?
EDIT 2:
The people I teach generally come back year after year, and they often report having made life-changes...
Don't get me wrong, I am no priest... I am just a guy who absolutely love the mountains, and do my best to share that love with others.
I'm not a ski instructor anymore, but when I was... I must say it was an honour to get paid for translating my love of the mountains to others, it was like handing them a gift package straight to their soul :)
Oh I believe you, and what you say is very admirable and such. It was just funny. If anything I would picture you as a priest. Now or a 1000 years ago :)Elaborate, please?
EDIT:
1. I teach people respect for the mountain.
2. I show people the fun side of life.
3. I make people see another perspective of life.
4. I enhance peoples abilities.
5. I am there for anyone distressed, be it clients or others.
6. I make people go above what they thought was their ability.
7. I make people come in contact with nature in a way they previously have not.
I'm not saying I am a catholic priest by any means. Still though, I do my thing and enhance people. So what exactly is it that you laugh about?
EDIT 2:
The people I teach generally come back year after year, and they often report having made life-changes...
Don't get me wrong, I am no priest... I am just a guy who absolutely love the mountains, and do my best to share that love with others.
I'm not a ski instructor anymore, but when I was... I must say it was an honour to get paid for translating my love of the mountains to others, it was like handing them a gift package straight to their soul :)
Originally Posted by The Stranger:
i disagree. kad doesnt impose his beliefs on others, he simply ridicules and "excommunicates" those who dont share his. Which is the step that comes before imposing beliefs on others. Hesnt quite there yet.
Kad is certainly more hardfisted than I am, but I in general agree with him. It's kinda ironic that you should call it 'excommunication', given the almost (or fully) religious nature of political correctness. I fully understand his contempt, without sharing it.i disagree. kad doesnt impose his beliefs on others, he simply ridicules and "excommunicates" those who dont share his. Which is the step that comes before imposing beliefs on others. Hesnt quite there yet.
If you are implying that I argue for political correctness, then you are wrong, I have no patience for such bs. I do favor correctness though, factual and mostly linguistical.
The thing that is ironic imo, is that Kad doesnt realise how similar he is, or atleast how similar his behaviour in the backroom is, compared to those he holds in contempt. But Ive tried to travel down that road before, and I dont want to go there again. Its not a fun place.
also his previous post make it clear that he does have his heart in the right place, i think, as most people do. so no need to go there now.
The thing that is ironic imo, is that Kad doesnt realise how similar he is, or atleast how similar his behaviour in the backroom is, compared to those he holds in contempt. But Ive tried to travel down that road before, and I dont want to go there again. Its not a fun place.
also his previous post make it clear that he does have his heart in the right place, i think, as most people do. so no need to go there now.
What is really ironic is that some see some sort of fascism everywhere, but never recognise it when looking into the mirror. You can't defend islamic laws and call yourself progressive, you can't support the EU while calling yourself a democrate, you can't use the word excommunication if you are from the extremily intolerant leftist church. Accepting the ambiguaty is a sign of faith, not of reasonability. You simply can't have both and get away with it without any scolding.
lol frag, I think you are giving me all kinds of features, traits and beliefs that I dont hold. Since when have I been here discussing my views on islam, or the EU? I'm not a democrat, politics dont concern me much. I wouldnt call myself progressive, and I dont have a clue about islamic laws, so I dont have an oppinion about them. Off the bat, I would say I see bigger concerns than what they do there, so I dont really concern myself about that.
I dont see why i cant use the word excommunication, even if i would do the same as Kad, and probably I do to some extent. So your defence or scolding, or whatever it was simply doesnt hold up. I dont really get why you always have to put everything into this right/left opposition, even when it has very little to do with it.
I do agree with you on the last part, its a sign of faith, but when last time I said that many important cornerstone beliefs comes from faith first and only reason after, I was declared a madman by certain person you are defending now. Even though he pretty much said the same thing in different words. So much for irony and political correctness.
I dont see why i cant use the word excommunication, even if i would do the same as Kad, and probably I do to some extent. So your defence or scolding, or whatever it was simply doesnt hold up. I dont really get why you always have to put everything into this right/left opposition, even when it has very little to do with it.
I do agree with you on the last part, its a sign of faith, but when last time I said that many important cornerstone beliefs comes from faith first and only reason after, I was declared a madman by certain person you are defending now. Even though he pretty much said the same thing in different words. So much for irony and political correctness.
It wasn't directed at you. I accept the cultural values of others as long they don't tresspass into my own. I have nothing against people comming here. I absolutily do have a problem with people who want US to change our lifestyle, and the people who fascilitate it because of the suffocating social control that is political-correctness. They can have my onesizefitsall-boots up their asses without any ceremony.
ok, that wasnt clear to me.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
I remember my ex(with a master in breeding) was furious that the majority of Norwegian farmers continued to carry hens upside down, even when it has been proved beyond doubt that it leads to decreased egg production.
Agriculture is a conservative field, old habits take a long time to die-
Ahhh, master in breeding in reference to a woman was sounding pretty great. I should have stopped reading after that part.I remember my ex(with a master in breeding) was furious that the majority of Norwegian farmers continued to carry hens upside down, even when it has been proved beyond doubt that it leads to decreased egg production.
Agriculture is a conservative field, old habits take a long time to die-
Kadagar:
The quotation marks were meant to indicate a specific sense of the word. I was NOT asserting that you were a person who valued nothing, only that your previous statements in divers threads indicated that you were irreligious (not un-spiritual, not immoral, not uncaring) -- as in you do not adhere to any formal religious sect -- and that therefore nothing was "sacred" to you in the literal sense of religious sanctity. I was not attempting to lambast you in any way.
If you are serious about the Alpine priest bit, however, you might chat with some practitioners of "The Craft," whose views pretty well align with that sort of thinking.
The quotation marks were meant to indicate a specific sense of the word. I was NOT asserting that you were a person who valued nothing, only that your previous statements in divers threads indicated that you were irreligious (not un-spiritual, not immoral, not uncaring) -- as in you do not adhere to any formal religious sect -- and that therefore nothing was "sacred" to you in the literal sense of religious sanctity. I was not attempting to lambast you in any way.
If you are serious about the Alpine priest bit, however, you might chat with some practitioners of "The Craft," whose views pretty well align with that sort of thinking.
Bash their scull in with a hammer - cut their throat.
Can't get more humane than that.
Can't get more humane than that.
Unless the blow is either not hard enough or the aim not true. It's a skill and a bit luck of the draw.
Nothing is failsafe, shooting a pin is best but that can also go (horribly) wrong, and the heightened panic because of the pain makes it a really ugly affair. You can't do it twice so they die pretty badly.
Originally Posted by Husar:
How do you know what the most humane method is? Do you revive some animals and ask them how much fun their death was on a scale of 1 to 10? When you slit the throat, the brain should run out of oxygen relatively fast and the animal becomes unconscious.
Modern factory slaughter is even worse than your version of halal slaughter, as can be read here: http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/slaughter/
See? These animals are pretty much conscious, they are just paralyzed so they cannot move to evade the blades.
And pigs don't fare much better: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-u...ort-slaughter/
So I'm not sure why you single out halal as inhumane and say western methods are more humane.
There is even a rather detailed answer on Yahoo answers: https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/questio...2054725AAEfmRP
And there are people who say the exact opposite: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.U2q5tIa0PpA
You seemed to have missed my point entirely. How do you know what the most humane method is? Do you revive some animals and ask them how much fun their death was on a scale of 1 to 10? When you slit the throat, the brain should run out of oxygen relatively fast and the animal becomes unconscious.
Modern factory slaughter is even worse than your version of halal slaughter, as can be read here: http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/slaughter/
See? These animals are pretty much conscious, they are just paralyzed so they cannot move to evade the blades.
And pigs don't fare much better: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-u...ort-slaughter/
So I'm not sure why you single out halal as inhumane and say western methods are more humane.
There is even a rather detailed answer on Yahoo answers: https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/questio...2054725AAEfmRP
And there are people who say the exact opposite: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.U2q5tIa0PpA
I don't care whether Halal slaughter seems all psycho...
I am just asking if we, the people, in 2014 can't come up with a better solution. Get my point?
Originally Posted by The Stranger:
If you are implying that I argue for political correctness, then you are wrong, I have no patience for such bs. I do favor correctness though, factual and mostly linguistical.
The thing that is ironic imo, is that Kad doesnt realise how similar he is, or atleast how similar his behaviour in the backroom is, compared to those he holds in contempt. But Ive tried to travel down that road before, and I dont want to go there again. Its not a fun place.
also his previous post make it clear that he does have his heart in the right place, i think, as most people do. so no need to go there now.
I try to be open to everything where it's not a matter of mere numbers and statistics. If the subject touches statistics or general math, I will however do my utmost to absolutely crunch the other persons argument if it's factually wrong. If you are implying that I argue for political correctness, then you are wrong, I have no patience for such bs. I do favor correctness though, factual and mostly linguistical.
The thing that is ironic imo, is that Kad doesnt realise how similar he is, or atleast how similar his behaviour in the backroom is, compared to those he holds in contempt. But Ive tried to travel down that road before, and I dont want to go there again. Its not a fun place.
also his previous post make it clear that he does have his heart in the right place, i think, as most people do. so no need to go there now.
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
Kadagar:
The quotation marks were meant to indicate a specific sense of the word. I was NOT asserting that you were a person who valued nothing, only that your previous statements in divers threads indicated that you were irreligious (not un-spiritual, not immoral, not uncaring) -- as in you do not adhere to any formal religious sect -- and that therefore nothing was "sacred" to you in the literal sense of religious sanctity. I was not attempting to lambast you in any way.
If you are serious about the Alpine priest bit, however, you might chat with some practitioners of "The Craft," whose views pretty well align with that sort of thinking.
Yeah, I did read that in the way you first mentioned, glad we cleared it up :)Kadagar:
The quotation marks were meant to indicate a specific sense of the word. I was NOT asserting that you were a person who valued nothing, only that your previous statements in divers threads indicated that you were irreligious (not un-spiritual, not immoral, not uncaring) -- as in you do not adhere to any formal religious sect -- and that therefore nothing was "sacred" to you in the literal sense of religious sanctity. I was not attempting to lambast you in any way.
If you are serious about the Alpine priest bit, however, you might chat with some practitioners of "The Craft," whose views pretty well align with that sort of thinking.
About the Alpine Priest bit... If you have contacts believing in the same, please don't hesitate to share :)
But honestly speaking, I just love (and have a talent) for teaching other people... My work life is:
Ski trainer
Ski instructor
Officer in the army
teacher
So basically, teaching is what I do. No matter if it's math or how to place explosives to blow up a bridge... Heck, I "believe" so hard I have always been ready to change my life to follow my heart :)
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Nothing is failsafe, shooting a pin is best but that can also go (horribly) wrong, and the heightened panic because of the pain makes it a really ugly affair. You can't do it twice so they die pretty badly.
I am aware that I am repeating myself here... But seriously, in 2014 the meat industry should be damn focused on how to treat the animals, no?Nothing is failsafe, shooting a pin is best but that can also go (horribly) wrong, and the heightened panic because of the pain makes it a really ugly affair. You can't do it twice so they die pretty badly.
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO