Sensationalist UK Headline sparks Eurarabia Scare

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah, so what about part 2?

[Husar]

Yeah, so what about part 2?

Didn't watch it. I did watch a video of a piglet castration without anaesthesia instead and shut it off halfway through because the screaming alone is heart wrenching and the images only make it worse. Of course some of our civilized people in the west have been saying it's not a big deal (apparently they even said the piglets don't feel it) but the fascist EU has banned it by 2018 anyway and it's not necessary to get good meat from male pigs if they are treated properly and not stressed their entire life.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah... I call BS then.

You cant judge Islamic slaughter from the cozy snuggling before the slaughter that happens at one place, can you?

What an idiotic argument.

I wont link part 2, but it's not hard to find. Absolutely barbaric - 2014 we have more humane methods to kill animals.

[Husar]

Yeah... I call BS then.

You cant judge Islamic slaughter from the cozy snuggling before the slaughter that happens at one place, can you?

What an idiotic argument.

I wont link part 2, but it's not hard to find. Absolutely barbaric - 2014 we have more humane methods to kill animals.

Even in part 2 I didn't see a single animal hanging upside down while it had its throat slit, which was one of your main arguments.
You also can't rate western slaughter from the theoretical methods, which often do not really work in practice.
There was even a case in the USA last weekend where they tried to slaughter a human, who ended up being in horrible pain for 45 minutes or so. "Theoretically" it's supposed to be "humane".

[HoreTore]

Even in part 2 I didn't see a single animal hanging upside down while it had its throat slit, which was one of your main arguments.
You also can't rate western slaughter from the theoretical methods, which often do not really work in practice.
There was even a case in the USA last weekend where they tried to slaughter a human, who ended up being in horrible pain for 45 minutes or so. "Theoretically" it's supposed to be "humane".

I remember my ex(with a master in breeding) was furious that the majority of Norwegian farmers continued to carry hens upside down, even when it has been proved beyond doubt that it leads to decreased egg production.

Agriculture is a conservative field, old habits take a long time to die-

[The Lurker Below]

I remember my ex(with a master in breeding) was furious that the majority of Norwegian farmers continued to carry hens upside down, even when it has been proved beyond doubt that it leads to decreased egg production.

Agriculture is a conservative field, old habits take a long time to die-

Ahhh, master in breeding in reference to a woman was sounding pretty great. I should have stopped reading after that part.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Kadagar:

The quotation marks were meant to indicate a specific sense of the word. I was NOT asserting that you were a person who valued nothing, only that your previous statements in divers threads indicated that you were irreligious (not un-spiritual, not immoral, not uncaring) -- as in you do not adhere to any formal religious sect -- and that therefore nothing was "sacred" to you in the literal sense of religious sanctity. I was not attempting to lambast you in any way.

If you are serious about the Alpine priest bit, however, you might chat with some practitioners of "The Craft," whose views pretty well align with that sort of thinking.

[Kadagar_AV]

Even in part 2 I didn't see a single animal hanging upside down while it had its throat slit, which was one of your main arguments.
You also can't rate western slaughter from the theoretical methods, which often do not really work in practice.
There was even a case in the USA last weekend where they tried to slaughter a human, who ended up being in horrible pain for 45 minutes or so. "Theoretically" it's supposed to be "humane".

First of all, that video isn't representative of general halal slaughter.

Secondly, as much as the practical can fail, why oh WHY would we strive for and legislate for anything but the most humane method?

It's 2014, time to leave folklore and witchcraft behind us. No?

[Husar]

How do you know what the most humane method is? Do you revive some animals and ask them how much fun their death was on a scale of 1 to 10? When you slit the throat, the brain should run out of oxygen relatively fast and the animal becomes unconscious.
Modern factory slaughter is even worse than your version of halal slaughter, as can be read here: http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/slaughter/

Imagine being hung upside down, shocked into paralysis, having your throat cut, then drowned in hot water...while you’re conscious. That’s the stuff of nightmares, and it’s the tragic reality for billions of birds each year. These animals have virtually no protection from the worst slaughter abuses.

See? These animals are pretty much conscious, they are just paralyzed so they cannot move to evade the blades.

And pigs don't fare much better: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-u...ort-slaughter/

A typical slaughterhouse kills up to 1,100 pigs every hour. The sheer number of animals killed makes it impossible for them to be given humane, painless deaths. Because of improper stunning, many pigs are alive when they reach the scalding tank, which is intended to soften their skin and remove their hair.

So I'm not sure why you single out halal as inhumane and say western methods are more humane.
There is even a rather detailed answer on Yahoo answers: https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/questio...2054725AAEfmRP

And there are people who say the exact opposite: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.U2q5tIa0PpA

[Greyblades]

I find it somewhat depressing that people appear to be more concerned with the welfare of the food that we consume than the people who make it. Loads of stickers saying: free range eggs, non GMC veg, yet finding a free trade sticker is rare. It's mildly concerning considering the many documentaries we see about people getting screwed for our food, the highlight being that a lot of the money we buy chocolate with goes to ivory coast child slavers.

[Fragony]

'A typical slaughterhouse kills up to 1,100 pigs every hour. The sheer number of animals killed makes it impossible for them to be given humane, painless deaths. Because of improper stunning, many pigs are alive when they reach the scalding tank, which is intended to soften their skin and remove their hair.'

Not most are still alive, they all are. It's tragic if they are improperly stunned but most are knocked out.

As for the chickens, they are hanged upside down yes, than they go trough an electrified pool which instantly knocks them out. It all goes really fast.

[Kadagar_AV]

How do you know what the most humane method is? Do you revive some animals and ask them how much fun their death was on a scale of 1 to 10? When you slit the throat, the brain should run out of oxygen relatively fast and the animal becomes unconscious.
Modern factory slaughter is even worse than your version of halal slaughter, as can be read here: http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/slaughter/



See? These animals are pretty much conscious, they are just paralyzed so they cannot move to evade the blades.

And pigs don't fare much better: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-u...ort-slaughter/



So I'm not sure why you single out halal as inhumane and say western methods are more humane.
There is even a rather detailed answer on Yahoo answers: https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/questio...2054725AAEfmRP

And there are people who say the exact opposite: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.U2q5tIa0PpA

I have no idea what the most humane method is. We should however strive towards achieving it, no?

Bronze age dogma probably isn't the answer 2014.

Shouldn't this be a more... Scientific debate - rather than religious? If we are looking out for the animals?

Whatever way is the best, I am pretty sure a ban on having the animals unconscious really really REALLY isn't the best standard to set, no?

It's hard to monitor every slaughterhouse, and even harder to monitor every single kill. That's why we need laws to make it as decent as possible. Am I wrong here?

From that perspective, why would it be better to legislate against the animals being unconscious, than allowing it?

When it's time for my dog to go, I sure as hell wont pet him and then slit his throat. Why should I not offer the same care to other animals up for death?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...It's 2014, time to leave folklore and witchcraft behind us. No?

But folklore has always contained practical wisdom as well as blind ignorance.

Witchcraft is a religion.


You tend to view all religion as a fiction, Kadagar, thus making it easy for you to dismiss the adherence to outdated methods of animal slaughter is needless cruelty. For you, nothing is "sacred" in the literal sense, and therefore you do not deem any such practice as defensible.

As a Catholic, the need for Halal or Kosher slaughter method is neither here nor there to me. Animal cruelty to me is abhorrent because it: usually isn't necessary and can therefore be deemed as wasteful and enjoying such cruelty is usually a sign of some personality weakness/disorder on the part of the human involved.

On the other side of the coin, I have listened to PETA spokespeople arguing that we need to respect the basic "humanity" of all animals. They almost seem to view humanity as an intrusion upon the natural order instead of an apex predator/scavenger (omnivorous variant). Such an attitude is silly.

[Kadagar_AV]

But folklore has always contained practical wisdom as well as blind ignorance.

Witchcraft is a religion.


You tend to view all religion as a fiction, Kadagar, thus making it easy for you to dismiss the adherence to outdated methods of animal slaughter is needless cruelty. For you, nothing is "sacred" in the literal sense, and therefore you do not deem any such practice as defensible.

As a Catholic, the need for Halal or Kosher slaughter method is neither here nor there to me. Animal cruelty to me is abhorrent because it: usually isn't necessary and can therefore be deemed as wasteful and enjoying such cruelty is usually a sign of some personality weakness/disorder on the part of the human involved.

On the other side of the coin, I have listened to PETA spokespeople arguing that we need to respect the basic "humanity" of all animals. They almost seem to view humanity as an intrusion upon the natural order instead of an apex predator/scavenger (omnivorous variant). Such an attitude is silly.

Wait, what?

You have no idea of the grounds to my belief system.

As an example, I find life to be sacred. With that said, I should stress to note that I find respectful killing of animals to be OK.

I don't however, much like nor respect industrial slaughter without any sense of respect towards the animal, for feeding people who put half the animal in the garbage pile or incinerator.

I also find other things sacred, but contrary to others I don't whip my belief out and shove it down others throats... Read enough of my posts on a deeper level, and I am sure a belief system will emerge. Including sacred things.

I'll give you another hint: Mountains.

I see myself more like an alpine priest than a ski instructor.