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Thread: An EB II AAR: Roma

  1. #1

    Default An EB II AAR: Roma


    Greetings, EB II fans! In honour of the Re-release Party of Medieval 2: Total War organised by totalwar.org, the Europa Barbarorum II team asked to share some stories about the upcoming mod. I hope you enjoy this AAR, it is my first. All footage is in-game, and I am playing Roma on Hard/Medium difficulties.

    The AAR can be found on the following page: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...um-II-AAR-Roma

    More updates will follow in the future, and be free to discuss the AAR here!
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    Last edited by Brennus; 05-15-2014 at 17:20.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    first. this is great

  3. #3
    Member Member Christianus's Avatar
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    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Thank you so much. Amazing:)
    Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
    κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.
    - Σιμωνίδης ὁ Κεῖος

  4. #4
    Terrible Tactician Member Shadowwalker's Avatar
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    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Well, Brennus didn't promise too much in his Twitter post, it seems: this is a lot of eye candy. And well written, too. Thanks a lot for the effort, Ailfertes.

    I do have a question though: where are the Populace buildings? Are they "just" not finished yet or have they been removed/replaced, like the Central/Outlying Authority buildings?

    (By the way: Seeing phalangitai in good order on the walls caused yet another jawdrop on my side. And now I wonder if Oxybeles etc could be placed there, too. 1648 tried to achieve something like this - with cannons - but didn't succeed as far as I'm aware. . . )
    Last edited by Shadowwalker; 05-15-2014 at 20:22.
    Finished EB Campaigns: Kart-Hadast 1.0/1.2 | Pontos 1.1 | Arche Seleukeia 1.2 | Hayasdan 1.2 | Sab'yn 1.2 | Makedonia 1.2 (Alex)
    Lost Campaigns (1.2, Alex. exe): Getai | Sab'Yn
    Ongoing campaigns (1.2): SPQR (110 BC) | Sab'yn (217 BC) | Pontos (215 BC)
    from Populus Romanus

    "The state of human ethics can be summarized in two sentences: We ought to. But we don't." (Tucholsky)

  5. #5

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    i liked every little detail even if it is wp
    i didnt like one detail,some unit pics.
    see this https://i.imgur.com/g07szh9.png
    i like the pic of the fourth unit but not the fifth.in the fifth unit pic you dont see the shield which is an importand element of all units in order to understand if it is heavy unit or light(pluss it looks better
    Last edited by clone; 05-15-2014 at 21:16.

  6. #6
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Populace buildings have in fact been removed both for gameplay reasons and historical ones also.



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  7. #7
    Terrible Tactician Member Shadowwalker's Avatar
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    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    That's surprising, to say the least. I considered them one of the most interesting ideas of the EBII team. Looking forward to see how the informations and descriptions gathered in this thread will be used ingame.
    Finished EB Campaigns: Kart-Hadast 1.0/1.2 | Pontos 1.1 | Arche Seleukeia 1.2 | Hayasdan 1.2 | Sab'yn 1.2 | Makedonia 1.2 (Alex)
    Lost Campaigns (1.2, Alex. exe): Getai | Sab'Yn
    Ongoing campaigns (1.2): SPQR (110 BC) | Sab'yn (217 BC) | Pontos (215 BC)
    from Populus Romanus

    "The state of human ethics can be summarized in two sentences: We ought to. But we don't." (Tucholsky)

  8. #8
    Bored Member Tux's Avatar
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    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Quote Originally Posted by clone View Post
    i like the pic of the fourth unit but not the fifth.in the fifth unit pic you dont see the shield which is an importand element of all units in order to understand if it is heavy unit or light(pluss it looks better
    The unit descriptions will tell any equipment and other details.
    Making assumptions based only on the unit cards during battles will be your downfall, there are plenty units in EB2 which may appear to be levy units when in fact they are elite units.
    Last edited by Tux; 05-15-2014 at 22:18.

  9. #9

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Quote Originally Posted by Tux View Post
    The unit descriptions will tell any equipment and other details.
    Making assumptions on only the unit cards during battles will be your downfall, there are plenty units in EB2 which may appear to be levy units when in fact they are elite.
    i know but with shield it looks better. nevermind the work is outstanding
    why populace building idea war abandoned .one reason that i was awaiting eb 2 is the populace buildings. in eb1 even with the outstanding work you have done when you conquere a new town you just conqure a new different town with some different buildings and most of them either are going to be demolished or upgraded into your culture so forget even this.only the great aor system made the cities more diverce but this was not enought.populace building would breath life into every city
    Last edited by clone; 05-15-2014 at 22:29.

  10. #10
    EBII Council Senior Member Kull's Avatar
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    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Quote Originally Posted by clone View Post
    why populace building idea war abandoned .one reason that i was awaiting eb 2 is the populace buildings. in eb1 even with the outstanding work you have done when you conquere a new town you just conqure a new different town with some different buildings and most of them either are going to be demolished or upgraded into your culture so forget even this.only the great aor system made the cities more diverce but this was not enought.populace building would breath life into every city
    There was a lot of discussion on that. Suffice it to say there will be plenty of life in each city - and populace buildings would have made things less interesting, not more. @V.T. Marvin addressed the issue far better than I could:

    Quote Originally Posted by V.T. Marvin View Post
    From gameplay perspective there is a question how much recruitment populaces should provide. Problem is that there are perils on both ends of the spectrum. If populaces provide very little recruitment (either low replenishment or small pool or both) they are just insignificant to the point of redundancy. If populaces contribute substantially (by either moderate/high replenishment or sizable pool or both) it is even worse. Unless more conditions based on other buildings present are added (which obviates their only merit - code efficiency) the recruitment from populaces is static: the units are available no matter which faction controls the region by which government type. Apparently the original thinking was something akin to "well I should be able to recruit hoplites from Athens no matter what!" Well - NO! If Athens are allied semi-independent state to any faction, then yes of course. But that is what we have Allied State government option (in two flavours of two levels each!) for. But if Athens are freshly conquered and under Roman military occupation or a Roman province or Roman Civitas Libera or Celtic protectorate it only makes sense that the availability/nonavailability, replenishment rate and overall unit pool should be different in each case. And that is what we have faction-specific governments for. They allow us to design recruitment options (together with other boni and capabilities) custom-tailored to each specific way of governance we are representing in the game. Putting a "one-size-fits-all" hat on top of it dilutes and blurs the otherwise meticulous research and coding work put into these governments.

    From historical as well as gameplay perspective the independent and static recruitment options provided by populaces make problematic another (often overlooked) in-game concept that played especially important role in Hellenistic period - that is mercenaries. Mercenaries are extremely well suited to represent local auxiliary units that could be recruited by anybody and have the huge advantage that their recruitment pools are not based on individual provinces, but on wider regional groupings which may be shared by several factions with very different governments instituted in their respective domains and thus - unlike populaces - this "default" and "static" source of recruitment is much more understandable in the context of the governmental arrangement of a particular province. Moreover, why bother recruiting mercenaries while I have the same units available as regionals from populace building? And vice versa!

    So to sum up my argument - I don't see any recruitment option provided by populaces that cannot be handled equally well, if not better, by other ways. I consider populaces serious complication in setting recruitment pools and replenishment rates from various resources of recruitment: governments, colonies, poleis, populaces and mercenaries.
    And to finish off his comments - recruitment was the ONLY actual benefit to populace buildings (aside from eye candy & cool text). You won't miss them, believe me.
    "Numidia Delenda Est!"

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  11. #11

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    There was a lot of discussion on that. Suffice it to say there will be plenty of life in each city - and populace buildings would have made things less interesting, not more. @V.T. Marvin addressed the issue far better than I could:



    And to finish off his comments - recruitment was the ONLY actual benefit to populace buildings (aside from eye candy & cool text). You won't miss them, believe me.
    i think there was some misanderstanding. arent populace buildings those buildings where every city has that describes its people.
    if yes then how are you going to solve the problem i pointed out
    Last edited by clone; 05-16-2014 at 08:51.

  12. #12
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Quote Originally Posted by clone View Post
    i think there was some misanderstanding. arent populace buildings those buildings where every city has that describes its people.
    if yes then how are you going to solve the problem i pointed out
    Well we have province descriptions (WIP) which serve to help describe how each province in EBII differed from its neighbours.



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  13. #13

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus View Post
    Well we have province descriptions (WIP) which serve to help describe how each province in EBII differed from its neighbours.
    you mean as a trait right?

  14. #14

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    There are province buildings in each province, which sometimes give special effects, and which have a through description of the province. Not all provinces have their descriptions written yet, but a lot of them will.
    In fact, there is this thread where fans can help fill in the missing province descriptions.

    There will be ethnicity traits describing the origin of a character just as in EBI, though.


  15. #15

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Shouldn't "Population" be changed to "Available Recruits" or "Available Manpower"? Or did Roma really had fewer than 10k people in 272 BC? O_o

  16. #16

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithridates VI Eupator View Post
    There are province buildings in each province, which sometimes give special effects, and which have a through description of the province. Not all provinces have their descriptions written yet, but a lot of them will.
    In fact, there is this thread where fans can help fill in the missing province descriptions.

    There will be ethnicity traits describing the origin of a character just as in EBI, though.
    at first i thought that team discarted those province buildings https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...view-Provinces
    Last edited by clone; 05-16-2014 at 15:00.

  17. #17
    EBII Bricklayer Member V.T. Marvin's Avatar
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    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Province buildings are of course maintained in the game - you will find a lot of information on geography, population and history of each in-game region there plus the cool graphics thank to Tsar's heroic work. BTW the province buildings are always listed as the first one on the settlement scroll, you can see their icons in Alifertes's AAR quite well - it is the icon that looks like an oval "window" into the province and you will notice that the tiny piece of landscape through it is different for each province (as it should be).

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  18. #18

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Quote Originally Posted by Tux View Post
    The unit descriptions will tell any equipment and other details.
    Making assumptions based only on the unit cards during battles will be your downfall, there are plenty units in EB2 which may appear to be levy units when in fact they are elite units.
    that what i meant about the shield units http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/86...7567FD3D2DBCB/
    of course this is something minor
    Last edited by clone; 05-16-2014 at 23:11.

  19. #19

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Bearing in mind the limitations of the M2TW engine - the Rome AAR seems to indicate a fairly passive AI. Will this be selectable according to Campaign difficulty? And will all the factions be roughly of equal difficulty or will this depend on their historical starting position?
    Regards
    Vermin

  20. #20

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Vermin, it actually sounds like my usual start for Rome. You park a legion on the Apulian border, the Epirotes refuse peace, an Epirote force appears in the field, which is easily beatable. Finally a siege of Tarentum and Epirus accepts peace.

  21. #21

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Quote Originally Posted by Vermin View Post
    Bearing in mind the limitations of the M2TW engine - the Rome AAR seems to indicate a fairly passive AI. Will this be selectable according to Campaign difficulty? And will all the factions be roughly of equal difficulty or will this depend on their historical starting position?
    Regards
    Vermin
    Do not forget that this first post only comprised 7 turns. The AI can be fairly aggressive - it depends. I noticed that in my game, Epeiros was actually moving huge stacks towards the sea, but they of course were threatened by the Macedonians and Koinon Hellenon too.

  22. #22

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Thank you - good points.
    Regards
    Vermin

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thank you - good points.
    Regards
    Vermin

  23. #23

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    I should note that everything is changing rapidly, and some stuff (traits, attributes) are being reworked. An example is the foreign tastes trait, which I have maintained as a picture anyway. You shall see some things which are already outdated in this AAR, because I don't want to change builds in order to maintain savegame stability (for now).

    Enjoy!



    Winter. The year of Gaius Quinctius Claudus and Lucius Genucius Clepsina is near its end.

    In Magna Graecia, the praetor Marcus Atilius Regulus prepares the Roman troops to march into the region of Brettia. Manius Valerius Maximus, propraetor, remains in Cantabria to pacify the region, which until recently was loyal to the Epirotes.

    To maintain the stranglehold on King Pyrrhus, the Roman envoy Caius Fabius Licinus journeys east in search of allies. The Athenians, considered by some to be the most civilized citizens on earth, eagerly open the Piraeus to Roman traders. If our people remain friends, both King Pyrrhus and King Antigonos should be wary of testing our leniency.



    It is the year of the second consulship of Caius Genucius Clepsina and the first of Cnaeus Cornelius Blasio.
    Lucius Cornelius Scipio is elected quaestor, as his brother before him. He is sent out to oversee the Capuan territories instead of receiving a task in Rome. As the city of Capua rebelled against Rome half a century ago, they forfeited much of the surrounding countryside and the right of self-management. Lucius Scipio methodically begins his duty, but under the influence of the Greek colonies in Campania, starts to dress in an un-Roman fashion.

    Caius Aurelius Cotta desires more experience and sends a plea to Regulus. With the latter's imperium lengthened beyond his year of office, he happily accepts Cotta back into his service. The young knight ambitiously sets forth from his Campanian estate, journeying towards Rhegium.

    Valerius has successfully pacified Tarentum, but discontent still threatens the stability offered by Rome in the region of Calabria. The imperium of Valerius has been prorogated once more, but he desires to make the next step on the cursus honorum. With the great victories in the south, the Quirites must surely recognize his worth for the consulship? But Manius Valerius Maximus is a patient man, and a loyal one. His duties lie in the south for now.

    In the region of Brettia, Regulus finally besieges Rhegium at the end of spring. Regulus is determined to quickly eradicate the traitorous Vibellius. Only one punishment is fit for those who have turned their back to Roman might: eradication.





    In summer, Caius Aurelius Cotta arrives at the camp of the propraetor, only just in time to participate in the planning of storming the city.



    Regulus has constructed a ram, but has no need of it, as an inside man has agreed to open the gates at the arrival of his legions.

    Under the cover of heavy fog, the infantry marches on the gates. The hastati go first, followed by the principes and triarii, while the cavalry covers their flanks in the unlikely event of trickery by the degenerate traitors.



    Startled by the opening of the gates, the cowardly foe runs to the center of the town, hoping to there stand firm against the might of Rome.





    Despite Roman courage, the battle turns into a mutual slaughter.



    At the height of battle, a shudder goes through the ranks. The propraetor falls from his horse, mortally wounded. Marcus Atilius Regulus, zealous to punish the traitors to his city, falls in combat, locked in an engagement with the bodyguard of Vibellius himself.



    Caius Aurelius Cotta sees command fall into his hands, and grabs it immediately. He boldly takes charge of the legion and prevents the troops from taking flight, but for hours the slaughter continues.



    Finally, Decius is slain by the swords of Roman valour, and his brethren run for their lives. No escape is permitted them. They are cut down to the last man.



    Furious at the death of Regulus, Cotta orders the town to be sacked. Rome's good name has been restored, and the sacrifice of the noble propraetor shall not be forgotten.



    Following the plans laid out by Regulus, Cotta orders the pacification of the region. He has no formal command, but is considered by some to be the true sole victor of the taking of Rhegium.
    Manius Valerius Maximus sends a dispatch to the young knight, commending him for his bravery and quick action. He takes Cotta into his own command, and authorizes his further actions. Furthermore, he sends another letter-carrier to Lucius Cornelius Scipio. He asks the quaestor to oversee the garrison of Tarentum when his duties in Campania come to an end, so he himself can return to Rome.

    However, eager to prove his superior worth, Scipio sets out immediately, arriving in autumn. Despite his Greek attire, the Tarentines dislike their new arrogant overseer, who is far less influential than Valerius. They become suspicious of Roman power. Despite the growing discontent, Scipio stays confident he can assure the city’s loyalty.



    By wintertime, his methodical approach actually succeeds in attaining deference from the Tarentines and eroding their mistrust. Meanwhile, Brettia has been subdued by the Roman troops, and control is firmly re-established. However, with only two depleted legions holding Magna Graecia with much effort, Rome cannot be deemed truly safe.



    As Valerius approaches Rome, he gathers support in the countryside for his upcoming electoral campaign for the consulship.

    It is the year of the consulship of Quintus Ogulnius Gallus and Gaius Fabius Pictor, the son of the painter.
    Cnaeus Cornelius Scipio enters the office of curule aedile.



    His brother Lucius is enrolled in the lists of the senate, as his quaestorship has now come to an end. His appetite for luxurity begins to take an ever more distinct form, however. After the elections, Valerius enters Rome and starts his two year long campaign for the consulship.
    Under the new tribunes, the plebs graciously votes to accept the cities of Umbria as allies rather than conquered territories. It will take one year, however, before the new allies of the Roman Republic will be able to contribute to the war effort by troops and kind offerings.



    Confident in his personal abilities at pacifying the cities of the region, Lucius Scipio sends the majority of the garrisons in Kalabria back home, allowing them to tilt the field in the coming year. Reluctantly, Caius Aurelius Cotta is obliged to do the same.



    Cnaeus and Lucius Cornelius Scipio are both granted second sons in autumn and summer, respectively named and Manius and Publius. If their fathers both continue on their path towards excelling all others, the family of the Scipiones is guaranteed a fine future.
    However, as the family rejoices, the Senate is concerned. News has reached the Patres (et)* Conscripti from Sicilia, bearing ill tidings.
    The city of Carthago has dispatched an army to the island to conquer cities laying beyond their current territories. Under the leadership of the general Anno, Phoenician troops are marching along the southern coast. In summer, heated discussion arise over the importance of this campaign, but some senators, supported by the aedile Cnaeus Scipio, warn that the target may very well be the great city of Syracusa. In autumn, the news is unfortunately confirmed.



    The King of Siracusa, Hiero the Second, is no ally of the people of Rome. However, with the Mamertines in Messana having equally doubtful loyalty, his enmity with them has proven to be a good distraction towards relieving pressure on the straits of Messana. The capture of these rich lands, let alone the mighty city itself, would forever disturb the balance in the region, with Carthaginian supremacy nearly guaranteed. Once more, fierce debates fill the meeting places of the Senate. When a formal request for help from the Roman people by Hiero is finally received, two camps form. Cnaeus Cornelius Scipio leads one, which professes immediate war with the Phoenicians. The freedom of these cities against foreign subjugation, his argument goes, is the paramount duty of the People of Rome. Even if his faction is a minority, Scipio stubbornly refers to his being right previously: the insight of the few is a greater weapon than the idleness of many. Against him, Manius Valerius Maximus professes caution. It would be foolish to incur the enmity of so great an empire, he claims, while the cities in the south remain rebellious. Valerius asks the senate to send Caius Fabius Licinius, who was an envoy to King Pyrrhus, to Africa, to deal with the Carthaginians themselves and seek friendship or at least acquiescence. Influenced by Scipio, the senate adds one caveat: if they refuse to abandon the siege, their friendship with the Senate and People of Rome shall be terminated.

    However, before the Roman envoy reaches the mighty colony of Tyrus, King Hiero decides to act himself.



    Bravely, the Greek repels the Phoenician soldiers from his walls. Elated, the senate congratulates Valerius on his prudence. Scipio, however, continues to advise war. In a speech, he proclaims that the Carthaginians have shown their true designs: rule over all of the known world. It is Rome's duty, he reiterates, to protect our allies and the free peoples of these regions from such imperialistic ambitions. Valerius assures Scipio that attacks should not be allowed, but questions his own ambitions at expansion. The Senate agrees to warn the Carthaginians against further aggressions.

    It is the year of the consulship of Appius Claudius Russus and Publius Sempronius Sophus.
    Caius Fabius Licinius has reached the city of Carthago, and communicates the Roman demand for reparations for the attack on Siracusa. Furthermore, he requests insight in all of Carthago's plans in the region.



    Unfortunately, the Phoenicians reject this fair proposal, and even dare to demand from the Romans a compensation for the use of their ports. Licinius circumvents this insult, but warns the Carthaginians that, should they once again attack any city in Sicilia, Rome shall be obliged to defend their interests.
    Taken aback by recent events, the Senate votes funds towards constructing new fleets in Brundisium and Paestum. Valerius agrees fully: it is prudent to prepare for war, even if one does not desire it. Furthermore, two Roman legions are raised and stationed at Cumae.




    However, it seems that preparations for war are already late. Word reaches Rome that Anno has raised yet another army and marches forth in Sicilia.



    This is one step too far, everyone now agrees. It is only a matter of time before the Punic general tries to conquer new cities. Unanimously, the senate votes that the cities in Sicilia which are now free from foreign rule should be defended, and the Plebs later affirm this sentiment. The legions are sent further south, to the fleet at Paestum. Although Valerius now agrees to war, Cnaeus Scipio still blames him for his former opinion.

    In the late Summer months, Anno has neared Siracusa once more. As the consular year is nearing its end, the Roman troops must await a new general. They are shipped to Rhegium, and placed under the provisional command of Caius Aurelius Cotta. The young knight, even if he has not yet been elected to a magistracy, has proven to be able to command troops in the service of other commanders. In Rhegium, the troops will await a new general.



    In winter, Anno starts the second siege of Siracusa. In Rome, the order is given to recruit two additional legions. We shall need every able-bodied man when war is declared!



    It is the year of the consulship of Manius Valerius Maximus and Lucius Iulius Libo.
    With Valerius elected consul, he is chosen to command the legions agains the Phoenician foes. With him, he takes a strong young man of noble birth, a scion of a lesser branch of the gens Claudia, Titus Claudius Marcellus.



    Together with the two fresh legions of Roman citizens, they board the ships requisitioned at Ostia. They set sail for the coast of Sicilia, and the allied regiments are ordered to advance along the coast.



    The consul sends a dispatch to Caius Aurelius Cotta, who is enrolled among his officers, to ship the legions in Rhegium across the straits of Messana and besiege the town. After all, the Mamertines could very well support the Carthaginians if that would serve their interests. They previously took over an independent city, and are to be considered renegades who could very well threaten the back of the Roman forces.

    Meanwhile, grave news reaches Valerius from Siracusa. Anno has taken the city and has displayed the head of King Hiero above the city gates. This crime cannot go unpunished. This means war between our people!




    *Subject of discussion.
    Last edited by Ailfertes; 06-02-2014 at 18:14.

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  24. #24
    Member Member Horatius Flaccus's Avatar
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    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    This is just amazing! Love the 2D-art (event pics, UI etc.)!
    Exegi monumentum aere perennius
    Regalique situ pyramidum altius
    Non omnis moriar

    - Quintus Horatius Flaccus

  25. #25

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    can i ask something . i remember reading somewhere that you created new pics for family members why you you rtw ones (just asking)

  26. #26
    Bored Member Tux's Avatar
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    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Quote Originally Posted by clone View Post
    can i ask something . i remember reading somewhere that you created new pics for family members why you you rtw ones (just asking)
    Only some cultures have new pictures rendered using Eb2 units.

  27. #27
    EBII Bricklayer Member V.T. Marvin's Avatar
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    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Have one more look at the last picture, namely the Carthaginian governor of Syracusae, and tell me if his portraits feels familiar from RTW...

  28. #28

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    Quote Originally Posted by Horatius Flaccus View Post
    This is just amazing! Love the 2D-art (event pics, UI etc.)!
    Yeah, I love it too. And the "Soccii Italicii" reforms.

  29. #29

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    This is a fun AAR to read so far. I'm really looking forward to EBII. :)

  30. #30

    Default Re: An EB II AAR: Roma

    i'm craving for the release!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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