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Thread: Segregation Returns to US Schools

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    Default Segregation Returns to US Schools

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Segregation is making a comeback in U.S. schools.

    Progress toward integrated classrooms has largely been rolled back since the Supreme Court issued its landmark Brown v. Topeka Board of Education decision 60 years ago, according to a report released Thursday by the Civil Rights Project at UCLA. Blacks are now seeing more school segregation than they have in decades, and more than half of Latino students are now attending schools that are majority Latino.

    In New York, California and Texas, more than half of Latino students are enrolled in schools that are 90 percent minority or more, the report found. In New York, Illinois, Maryland and Michigan, more than half of black students attend schools where 90 percent or more are minority.

    Project co-director Gary Orfield, author of the "Brown at 60" report, said the changes are troubling because they show some minority students receive poorer educations than white students and Asian students, who tend to be in middle-class schools. The report urged, among other things, deeper research into housing segregation, which is a "fundamental cause of separate-and-unequal schooling."

    Although segregation is more prevalent in central cities of the largest metropolitan areas, it's also in the suburbs. "Neighborhood schools, when we go back to them, as we have, produce middle-class schools for whites and Asians and segregated high-poverty schools for blacks and Latinos," Orfield said.
    And so another pillar of LBJ's great society has fallen, dragging down countless neighborhoods and communities with it. Busing destroyed America's most prosperous cities, and was the overarching driver of the suburban flight that has caused innumerable issues including sprawl, inner city poverty, drug use, and violence, failing infrastructure, political dysfunction, increased reliance on cars and all of the associated costs, resource exhaustion, and the clusterfuck that is modern urban planning (see: Atlanta). And all for nothing...

    Forced desegregation was one of the clearest examples of social engineering in US history, and most certainly the biggest failure. Ending legally enforced segregation was the correct decision, but forcing racial intermixing by removing children from their neighborhoods and busing them across entire metro areas was overreach in the extreme.

    And now there are calls to 'fix' the current situation, most assuredly through another pillar of LBJ's house of cards: affirmative action. What the political Left refuses to acknowledge is that the passive racism that whites and Asians practice through self segregation is far more linked to culture than color. The cultural attitudes towards the importance of education in the Black and Latino communities simply place a different value on education, which is proven out in school performance. That certainly does not mean that all black and Latino families place less emphasis on education or that all white and Asian families push their children to excel academically and instill the value of education in them, but ignoring cultural norms is folly, as the article above highlights.

    The unfortunate truth is that wherever black and Latino children are placed, white and Asian families with the means will leave, either physically or simply opt out of public education. It's easy to decry the horrors of white flight, but it is much more difficult to accept that such flight says just as much about those being left. Until educational attainment is truly valued in these minority communities, further social engineering will yield the same costly results.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Busing caused suburban sprawl? That's quite a leap...
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Here it's silent. There are black and white schools, everybody knows that. No greater headache for a byciclemom than her offspring failing to get accepted at the gymnasium, which is whiter than a meeting of the KKK. There is always the mandatory minority of course.

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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    I don't have the insight to comment on Panzer's arguments, but I do wonder what things would have been like if the government hadn't pushed through it's busing/forced mixing policy. Maybe attitudes towards racism would not have changed so drastically as they have since the Jim Crow days? Maybe things would never had moved on to the extent that people would elect a black/mixed-race president?

    On the other hand, maybe if black people had retained their integrity as a community, they would have been less susceptible to the gang culture and social breakdown they are experiencing?
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    TL;DR socioeconomic factors impact school achievement.

    Thank you for this brand new information.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Oh for 's sake kadagar.
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    TL;DR socioeconomic factors impact school achievement.

    Thank you for this brand new information.
    Why the dismissive tone? This is a big story, at least in the US. Busing and forced racial mixing caused significant social strife, and it was one of the largest and most intrusive social policies ever implemented in the states. On a forum where a Donald Sterling thread has three pages of results, I think its failure merits some discussion.

    In any event, growing evidence suggests that the economic portion of the trite and poorly supported socioeconomic explanation for the achievement gap is more of an excuse than reality.


    An achievement gap separating black from white students has long been documented — a social divide extremely vexing to policy makers and the target of one blast of school reform after another.

    But a new report focusing on black males suggests that the picture is even bleaker than generally known.

    Only 12 percent of black fourth-grade boys are proficient in reading, compared with 38 percent of white boys, and only 12 percent of black eighth-grade boys are proficient in math, compared with 44 percent of white boys.

    Poverty alone does not seem to explain the differences: poor white boys do just as well as African-American boys who do not live in poverty, measured by whether they qualify for subsidized school lunches.

    The data was distilled from highly respected national math and reading tests, known as the National Assessment for Educational Progress, which are given to students in fourth and eighth grades, most recently in 2009. The report, “A Call for Change,” is to be released Tuesday by the Council of the Great City Schools, an advocacy group for urban public schools.

    Although the outlines of the problem and many specifics have been previously reported, the group hopes that including so much of what it calls “jaw-dropping data” in one place will spark a new sense of national urgency.

    “What this clearly shows is that black males who are not eligible for free and reduced-price lunch are doing no better than white males who are poor,” said Michael Casserly, executive director of the council.

    The report shows that black boys on average fall behind from their earliest years. Black mothers have a higher infant mortality rate and black children are twice as likely as whites to live in a home where no parent has a job. In high school, African-American boys drop out at nearly twice the rate of white boys, and their SAT critical reasoning scores are on average 104 points lower.

    The analysis of results on the national tests found that math scores in 2009 for black boys were not much different than those for black girls in Grades 4 and 8, but black boys lagged behind Hispanics of both sexes, and they fell behind white boys by at least 30 points, a gap sometimes interpreted as three academic grades.

    The search for explanations has recently looked at causes besides poverty, and this report may further spur those efforts.

    “There’s accumulating evidence that there are racial differences in what kids experience before the first day of kindergarten,” said Ronald Ferguson, director of the Achievement Gap Initiative at Harvard. “They have to do with a lot of sociological and historical forces. In order to address those, we have to be able to have conversations that people are unwilling to have.”

    Those include “conversations about early childhood parenting practices,” Dr. Ferguson said. “The activities that parents conduct with their 2-, 3- and 4-year-olds. How much we talk to them, the ways we talk to them, the ways we enforce discipline, the ways we encourage them to think and develop a sense of autonomy.”
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 05-17-2014 at 19:18.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    It's difficult to admit black culture as the only determinant in lower educational quality and attainment when black students are routinely disregarded, under-supported, and singled out for disproportional disciplinary measures, not to mention the overall lower quality of the schools they attend. Such factors must be given a large role in explaining why economic status does not fully account for inadequate performance. In short, both black parenting and white mistreatment and misallocation must be taken into account when assessing the forces behind black demoralization and under-representation in education.

    Substituting one monocausal account for another should always be taken with suspicion, especially when burdens are shifted wholesale onto underprivileged groups. I'm all for admitting complexity into evaluation of political and social "victims", but I know when I smell a rat.
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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Factor Analysis of Population Allele Frequencies as a Simple, Novel Method of Detecting Signals of Recent Polygenic Selection: The Example of Educational Attainment and IQ. : Article : IBC

    This rather recent study look purely on the DNA-keys that are shared by prospering students.

    It then shows in what race groups these keyes can be found.

    The results goes hand in hand with other studies.


    I'm sure there are socio/socioeconomical factors at play here, as well. But facts are that even when you remove all socioeconomical factors, some race groups still tend to to well / not so well when it comes to intelligence.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Can I assume you are "black" then? Because your "link" isn't a link.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Factor Analysis of Population Allele Frequencies as a Simple, Novel Method of Detecting Signals of Recent Polygenic Selection: The Example of Educational Attainment and IQ. : Article : IBC

    This rather recent study look purely on the DNA-keys that are shared by prospering students.

    It then shows in what race groups these keyes can be found.

    The results goes hand in hand with other studies.


    I'm sure there are socio/socioeconomical factors at play here, as well. But facts are that even when you remove all socioeconomical factors, some race groups still tend to to well / not so well when it comes to intelligence.
    Look at the IQ-world map, I am not dismissing but want to add, in Suriname which is a mostly black colony the IQ levels are better than they are in most European countries. A lot of effort was put into there to build it up and it worked. I also believe that there are differnces between races, but there also valid argumensts for social-economic arguments, arguments that simply can't be simply ignored.

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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Surprise, surprise: you cannot remove all socioeconomical factors. I understand that why there might be some disposition towards something, the actual differences are so marginal that it doesn't even remotely comes close to having a serious effect on the IQ of a person.

    There are so many factors that come into play, that just shoving a map under someone's face and say "well everything is clear now" just doesn't work.
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    ..., what some consider black problems will be everyone's problems.
    Upside, The Adventues of Hucklebrry Finn might finally get a fair reading.
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    As always it comes down an imbalance of infrastructure and self sustainability. There is plenty of blame on all sides there.

    But what is there to expect, when even whites from lower incomes are getting pushed down by conservatives who believe that expensive charter schools for the rich will save the dysfunctional public school system.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Factor Analysis of Population Allele Frequencies as a Simple, Novel Method of Detecting Signals of Recent Polygenic Selection: The Example of Educational Attainment and IQ. : Article : IBC

    This rather recent study look purely on the DNA-keys that are shared by prospering students.

    It then shows in what race groups these keyes can be found.

    The results goes hand in hand with other studies.


    I'm sure there are socio/socioeconomical factors at play here, as well. But facts are that even when you remove all socioeconomical factors, some race groups still tend to to well / not so well when it comes to intelligence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Surprise, surprise: you cannot remove all socioeconomical factors. I understand that why there might be some disposition towards something, the actual differences are so marginal that it doesn't even remotely comes close to having a serious effect on the IQ of a person.

    There are so many factors that come into play, that just shoving a map under someone's face and say "well everything is clear now" just doesn't work.
    I think you're both overplaying your hands, personally. You can breed for stupidity in dogs, there's no reason you can't do that with people. Conversely, there's no reason that Africans should be worse at problem solving than Eurasians, looking at historical African cultures, there's plenty of evidence that they can build highly developed, literate, societies.

    For one thing, Sub-Saharan Africans created a number of early civilisations, and even within recorded history you have cultures like the Christians Kingdoms in Ethiopia.

    However, all modern education of "black" people occurs within a "Westernised" context, which means all Black education is imposed from the outside in some way, even if that is now a historical peculiarity (as in South Africa).

    What Kadagar's study tell us is that it isn't American policy, specifically, that is to blame. This suggests that a change in American policy will be unlikely to help.
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    What Kadagar's study tell us is that it isn't American policy, specifically, that is to blame. This suggests that a change in American policy will be unlikely to help.
    Er, I suspect this study can only be found on an open-access source for a good reason. For a similar reason, it has only been cited elsewhere by overtly-racist blogs and forums (i.e. the "haha them niggers are stupid" kind).

    I recommend this book to Kad.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Surprise, surprise: you cannot remove all socioeconomical factors. I understand that why there might be some disposition towards something, the actual differences are so marginal that it doesn't even remotely comes close to having a serious effect on the IQ of a person.

    There are so many factors that come into play, that just shoving a map under someone's face and say "well everything is clear now" just doesn't work.
    No denial there, but there can't also be denied that by western standards Marrocan youth who were born an bred here are basicly retarded, the difference in IQ-levels between native Dutch and North-Africans is huge. The average native Dutch has an IQ of 107, the average north-african has an IQ of 78. That could be atributed to not knowing the language very well, but an IQ test is mostly maths, and the scores are dramaticaly bad. It wouldn't be a lie to say that most are retarded. Forgive me for puting it that way, I am not out for getting as much infaction-points as possible, but you know it's true. That never argues against social-economic factors, as they are from poor regions and it would probably take hundreds of years of development to take into the equation to claim it's racial, but it IS where we are right now. They have had three generations to improve by now, but they are still way behind in just about everything.

    Edit, needs adition. Take the Chinese, the Chinese immigrants from the fifties still hardly speak Dutch, for them it isn't really needed, almost all their offspring end up on universities and beat us in Starcraft. They have the same difficulties from the go but easily outperform native Dutchies in just about everything.
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-19-2014 at 07:14.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Its not about smarts its about culture. People who grow up feeling unwanted by society (often helped by their parents' own views and experiences as minorities) can hardly be expected to be as invested in the standards as someone who grows up surrounded by the trappings of generations of stability and dominance. The solutions aren't simple because the problems aren't simple.
    Probably, but there are very good reasons that we aren't all that happy with north-africans. By now they just screwed up any goodwill that used to be there. You could rightfully claim that they are discriminated, but they kinda owe that to themselves. No company will hire a north-african if they can also get a Dutchman, because the mentality is totaly different, believe me I have experience there, they are unreliable, trying to keep all my promises was the most stressfull job ever, one is sick, one is suddenly on holiday, one is two hours late, some don't show up at all. And don't get me started of the rediculous overpresentation in crime. They have made themself unwanted by their own behaviour.

    Edit, forgot the many times when they suddenly show up in a tent or a man-dress the second they get a contract, with no other purpose than getting fired and run to the army of gutmenschen who have no other purpose than destroying you financially, they live from destroying your company, the fuckers are payed for that by our own government, a lawyer isn't free for those on the receiving end. So nobody takes the risk anymore, they know better than that by now. That is tragic for those of genuinly good will, but it has been ruined and you can't blame us for it.
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-19-2014 at 07:49.

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    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Yes, Dutchmen loathe Tunisians, Algerians, and Libyans.

    believe me I have experience there,
    Fragony's argument everywhere in every discussion.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Yes, Dutchmen loathe Tunisians, Algerians, and Libyans.




    Fragony's argument everywhere in every discussion.
    Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike any of them, but if you ask me if I actively dscriminated them the honest answer would be yes. But I am not the architect of the situation, most of the politicians are carreer politicians, it means absolutily nothing to them that we simply cannot get the job done under their conditions, it would take another employee to make sure everything goes smoothly. That was permentally the first two hours of my day, I couldn't do my actual work because of it. But you just can't don't deliver something you said you would, things I could absolutily have delivered if I didnt have discrinated and had Turkish or Polish or Dutch people instead, they always show up in time, are never sick, and take plesseare in working as hard as they can. Thete really is no proposition, the makable society of these social-democrats doesn't work, things just aren't as they think they are, company's can't just raise taxes if the money is gone. Politcs is all these guys know, any so solution they can come up is beyond the extremily narrow marges that is their level playing-field. They just don't get that two hands just aren't enough to carry out their political agenda. Not with the extrememily high taxations, all the rules that only apply to Dutch companies while a Polish guy can get his licence to drive truck with a bottle of wodka. If you think about not recognisin that our economy is killed makes you guilty of the consequenses it could have.
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-19-2014 at 12:26.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    ITT: Classical racism from the 20's dressed up in modern day language to make it appear smart.

    It fails. Hard.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    ITT: Classical racism from the 20's dressed up in modern day language to make it appear smart.

    It fails. Hard.
    . I dare you to call me a racist in my face, after I have shown you how upset I am my skinchallenged mates will give you prickly flowers with extra big thorns because you are being mean to me.
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-19-2014 at 14:03.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Why the dismissive tone? This is a big story, at least in the US. Busing and forced racial mixing caused significant social strife, and it was one of the largest and most intrusive social policies ever implemented in the states. On a forum where a Donald Sterling thread has three pages of results, I think its failure merits some discussion.

    In any event, growing evidence suggests that the economic portion of the trite and poorly supported socioeconomic explanation for the achievement gap is more of an excuse than reality.
    What you describe here eliminates racial differences as an explanation to the alleged issue. Also, busing was "one of the largest and most intrusive social policies ever implemented"? What?

    Slavery, anyone? Jim Crow, voter restrictions, committee on un-american activities, racial segregation, jailing homosexual? I could go on, but I believe my point is made. Do you seriously believe busing students around ranks as high on the shit-list as lawful lynchings based on race or jailing someone because of anal between two consenting adults...?

    Stop your self-victimization, please.

    Also, it must be noted that Kadagar's "study" isn't a study at all, and the "scientist" who wrote it isn't a scientist either. It's about as useful as pocket lint.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 05-19-2014 at 12:52.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    . I dare you to call me a racist in my face, after I have shown you how upset I am my skinchallenged mates will give you prickly flowers with extra big thorns because you are being mean to me.
    I didn't bother reading your posts in this thread Frags. Given the topic, I know from experience it's going to be a confused mix of racist stereotypes and other such predictable nonsense, which I have already read several times on this forum.

    My reply was based on the other posts in this thread.
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-19-2014 at 14:04.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    . I dare you to call me a racist in my face, after I have shown you how upset I am my skinchallenged mates will give you prickly flowers with extra big thorns because you are being mean to me.
    Frags you dont need to break your face over this.
    Also refuting accusations of racism would be somewhat more effective when you don't immediately after call someone "skinchallenged".
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-19-2014 at 14:04.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Frags you dont need to break your face over this.
    Also refuting accusations of racism would be somewhat more effective when you don't immediately after call someone "skinchallenged".
    I know it's racist, that doesn't mean it's hostile. Refine defintios because they are way off as they are right now. Currently, yes I am absolutily a racist. That doesn't mean however that there is any harm to be expected from me. I am no hater, word needs a change in it's use, it doesn't say what it should say, and it's never understood because of an almost natural scolding of what is a perfectly fine theory. The left is just another religion, theory of my own, feel free to burn me.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I know it's racist, that doesn't mean it's hostile. Refine defintios because they are way off as they are right now. Currently, yes I am absolutily a racist. That doesn't mean however that there is any harm to be expected from me. I am no hater, word needs a change in it's use, it doesn't say what it should say, and it's never understood because of an almost natural scolding of what is a perfectly fine theory. The left is just another religion, theory of my own, feel free to burn me.
    The thing is Fragony, there are no such thing as 'races' in the biological sense there is a serious lack of genetic difference and you have to be overly simplistic to your classifications to the degree of basically saying "dog" when pointing at four legged fuzzy animal.

    It is actually more a concept which is a social construct typically attributed to various ethnic groups. Ethnic groups on the otherhand are a collection of culture, religion, heritage, similar traits, a long list of things which are more than biological in its make up.
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-19-2014 at 22:25.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Frags you dont need to break your face over this.
    Also refuting accusations of racism would be somewhat more effective when you don't immediately after call someone "skinchallenged".
    I am not talking about my face, getting to break that is going to be a bit hard unless you have a black belt in jiu jitsu and judo, have 10 years of experience in kickboxing and take on fights without any protection just for fun. You guys misunderstand me, that is not my doing, but yours. I would never harm anything. I comb shetland pony's ffs

    'Skinchallenged was a joke by the way, it's called irony just like the whale up your ass, tell him I said hiiiiii
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-19-2014 at 14:30.

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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    The thing is Fragony, there are no such thing as 'races' in the biological sense there is a serious lack of genetic difference and you have to be overly simplistic to your classifications to the degree of basically saying "dog" when pointing at four legged fuzzy animal.

    It is actually more a concept which is a social construct typically attributed to various ethnic groups. Ethnic groups on the overhand are a collection of culture, religion, heritage, similar traits, a long list of things which are not biological in its make up.
    First off, condolences on the color change of your username.

    You are absolutely correct that there is no genetic relevance to race. Genetic variation within "races" is as great or greater within a "race" than among the "races."

    Socio-culturally, however, the impact of race has been profound.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Segregation Returns to US Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I am not talking about my face, getting to break that is going to be a bit hard unless you have a black belt in jiu jitsu and judo, have 10 years of experience in kickboxing and take on fights without any protection just for fun. You guys misunderstand me, that is not my doing, but yours. I would never harm anything. I comb shetland pony's ffs
    It was the bad grammar before the edit. To construct, the object "my face" was paired with "broken". What you most meant was adding "yours" after "broken". Which would have also been a threat and a big nono to post on the forum.
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