Segregation Returns to US Schools

[Fragony]

Rggardless, I don't want these insinnuations, I return every courtisy. Have some manners.

[Strike For The South]

400 years of slavery, 100 years of de jure segeragation and only 60 years removed. But its that rap music, I tell you what.

[Greyblades]

Rggardless, I don't want these insinnuations, I return every courtisy. Have some manners.

Sure, you're a racist, but at least you're a polite racist.

[Fragony]

Sure, you're a racist, but at least you're a polite racist.

I am a racist only in so far that I think there are differences.

[Greyblades]

No, you're a racist because you think those differences matter, see: "skinchallenged".

[Fragony]

No, you're a racist because you think those differences matter, see: "skinchallenged".

Already said that was just a joke. There is a whale in your irony-detector get the poor thing out

[Greyblades]

Ah yes, "it was a joke," the bully mainstay. Quite why people keep thinking it's an automatic "get out of jail free" phrase I will never know.

[Fragony]

Here is where I get to say that I have black friends, and you get to say that they all say that.

I am sorry for you that you know so much about bully's. Now giveme your lunchmoney.

[The Lurker Below]

I've met a lot of grown ass white adult men who sounded like children when trying to read out loud. In a few generations, if the rich continue to suffocate the poor, what some consider black problems will be everyone's problems.

I've met a few grown ass black adult men who sounded like white men when talking about why they were moving into a suburb further out. Not sure they were leading the "white flight" but they were leaving a couple years after I was moving in. LOL, guess I was behind the trend. I will echo the many who have qualms about this whole "black culture" reference. It's a socio-economic issue. I will agree that the black and Hispanic community has bought into the socio-economic issue and apparently believe that they can't rise above it and must help perpetuate it. I think it's important to remember that many "white trash" and "rednecks" have the same approach.

*sorry GC, wasn't necessarily responding to you, just wanted to steal your format

[Fragony]

I've met a few grown ass black adult men who sounded like white men when talking about why they were moving into a suburb further out. Not sure they were leading the "white flight" but they were leaving a couple years after I was moving in. LOL, guess I was behind the trend. I will echo the many who have qualms about this whole "black culture" reference. It's a socio-economic issue. I will agree that the black and Hispanic community has bought into the socio-economic issue and apparently believe that they can't rise above it and must help perpetuate it. I think it's important to remember that many "white trash" and "rednecks" have the same approach.

*sorry GC, wasn't necessarily responding to you, just wanted to steal your format

Sure, it's of course a very nice present for those who are already convincd but on a scale from 1 to 10, where would you put the argument, there are simply studies that take race into the equation. I haven't read them, but social-econonics and ethicity will always be a bit of a chicken&egg thing. I know what I expect, but no way I could ever be sure about it, it's impossible. But not t be dismissed in my humble opinion.

[The Lurker Below]

Sure, it's of course a very nice present for those who are already convincd but on a scale from 1 to 10, where would you put the argument, there are simply studies that take race into the equation. I haven't read them, but social-econonics and ethicity will always be a bit of a chicken&egg thing. I know what I expect, but no way I could ever be sure about it, it's impossible. But not t be dismissed in my humble opinion.

Maybe one of the reasons these studies are so bitterly debated and refuted is that they are all about math. ie "scale from 1 to 10". How valid can a measurement of human emotion, which frequently is not rational or logical, and defies math, really be? Having said that I'm sure somebody will respond with links to some psychological studies that claim to measure human motivation. Sorry Fragony, I guess to answer your question my opinion is that race is a 1 on that scale. Are there generations of training incorporated into our DNA that will take more generations to unlearn? But ultimately, race is not the underlying cause of the problems.

[Strike For The South]

And what is white? what is black? What is hispanic?

Will someone who believes in races explain to me how we classify them?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And what is white? what is black? What is hispanic?

Will someone who believes in races explain to me how we classify them?

The only definitions that would remain valid are cultural definitions. "Race" per se is pretty well unsupportable. Once you open it up to a cultural definition, you have to accept that all of us embody a multiplicity of cultural identities, only one of which might be labeled -- for convenience -- based on melanin content.

[Dimeola]

Geez, another example of someone thinking they know best and fixing things for us. Kids go to school where they live. Perhaps when black or Hispanic kids go to schools that are mostly black/Hispanic/minority populated its because that the makeup of the neighborhood? What will they do next, tell people they have to move? Just let people go the school where they live. Busing kids so they can have a racial mix is as bad as separating them by color, quit looking at what color people are and let them live in peace. If they want to work on something then work toward the root issues. Work harder on educational and work opportunities for minorities so that demographic can change. Star young with these kids so maybe they will growup seeing that they have opportunities and can make a better life for themselves and their kids. But the bottom line is you cant make them. Lots of these kids don't see any choices or see themselves having a future. Give them some opportunities and maybe things will start changing. But busing kids so the colormix changes is only good for the people who have something to gain from it....those people who see a problem.

[HoreTore]

And what is white? what is black? What is hispanic?

Will someone who believes in races explain to me how we classify them?

For something that is claimed to be so obvious, it sure is hard to get a straight answer of just what it is.

[Husar]

Like this?

http://www.policymic.com/articles/87...out-our-future

[Strike For The South]

The only definitions that would remain valid are cultural definitions. "Race" per se is pretty well unsupportable. Once you open it up to a cultural definition, you have to accept that all of us embody a multiplicity of cultural identities, only one of which might be labeled -- for convenience -- based on melanin content.

But this per se invalidates any sort of suspicion based on race?

[HopAlongBunny]

Maybe the "meaningful" segregation is between have and have-not; even with this qualifier it is hard to explain why the US does so poorly in international comparisons - The US sucks, but parts can look good when compared to other parts within a system
that fails.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27442541

[Fragony]

Maybe one of the reasons these studies are so bitterly debated and refuted is that they are all about math. ie "scale from 1 to 10". How valid can a measurement of human emotion, which frequently is not rational or logical, and defies math, really be? Having said that I'm sure somebody will respond with links to some psychological studies that claim to measure human motivation. Sorry Fragony, I guess to answer your question my opinion is that race is a 1 on that scale. Are there generations of training incorporated into our DNA that will take more generations to unlearn? But ultimately, race is not the underlying cause of the problems.

You see, I am absolutily not sure of it. And even if it's rather obvious that some groups perform significantly worse I wouldn't want to be the one making the suggestion and having to explain it as the social-economic factors can't be denied. There is no difference when there is a level playing field, I won't deny that either. It's a rather hard and uncomfortable take on things, but I don't bite my to tongue when considering it, I think it's perfectly possible. To be honest, I really do think that there are differences between ethnicities, that doesn't come with any judgement. It might be prejudice and racist, but I can assure you that there is 0% harm in it. Those don't get that last part aren't invited when I give a party. This should be a discussion where I am totally willing to take my loss, but please don't make something out of me that I am not just for considerating it, that is not directed at you by the way. Discusion needs care, not instant insinuation, we are all less off because of doing that.

[Papewaio]

I wonder how high socially an African American could go with the same parenting as an European American.

Guess we will never know unless Obama puts some Federal grant money into the research...

[Fragony]

I wonder how high socially an African American could go with the same parenting as an European American.

The same, there is no difference then. For my argument I am my own worst enemy.

[Ironside]

I wonder how high socially an African American could go with the same parenting as an European American.

Guess we will never know unless Obama puts some Federal grant money into the research...

Weirdly enough, I think the best testing would be adopted children in Europe. Not because Europeans aren't going to treat the adopted as foreigners at times, but because we don't have that white vs black culture legacy in the way. We'll have much smaller range difference in how we treat them.

[Montmorency]

Intelligence: New Findings and Theoretical Developments (Nisbett et. al. 2012)

We can be confident that the environmental differences that
are associated with social class have a large effect on IQ.
We know this because adopted children typically score 12
points or more higher than comparison children (e.g., siblings
left with birth parents or children adopted by lower
SES parents), and adoption typically moves children from
lower to higher SES homes

[...]

Hart and Risley also found a
large difference in the ratio of encouraging comments made
to children versus reprimands. The child of professional
parents received six encouragements for every reprimand,
the child of working-class parents received two encouragements
per reprimand, and the child of unemployed African
American mothers received two reprimands per encouragement

[...]

It is almost surely the case, however, that a substantial
fraction of the IQ advantage is due to the environments
independent of the genes associated with them. This is
because we know that adoption adds 12–18 points to the IQ
of unrelated children, who are usually from lower SES
backgrounds

. See Nisbett, 2005, 2009,
for the view that the direct evidence indicates that the
difference between the races is entirely due to environment.)

Nisbett (2009) maintains that there is actually a substantial
amount of direct evidence stemming from the fact that the
“Black” gene pool in the United States contains a large
amount of European genes. He maintains that almost all the
research indicates no higher IQs for Blacks with a significant
degree of European heritage than for those with much
less. One of the most telling of the studies was available at
the time of the Neisser et al. (1996) report but was apparently
not known to them. This is an adoption study by
Moore (1986). She examined the IQs of Black and mixed
race children averaging 81⁄2 years of age who were adopted
by middle-class families who were either Black or White.
The children who were of half-European origin had virtually
the same average IQ as the children who were of
exclusively Black origin. Hence European genes were of
no advantage to this group of “Blacks.” Children (both
Black and mixed-race) adopted by White families had IQs
13 points higher on average than those adopted by Black
families, indicating that there were marked differences in
the environments of Black and White families relevant to
socialization for IQ; indeed, the differences were large
enough to account for virtually the entire Black–White gap
in IQ at the time of the study.

[Beskar]

Intelligence: New Findings and Theoretical Developments (Nisbett et. al. 2012)

Thank you for that post, Montmorency.

[The Lurker Below]

There is no difference when there is a level playing field, I won't deny that

Just remember this when other instincts consider jumping in the way.

That there are certainly negative traits to certain communities, I'm quickly on board with you brother. Just remember that it is not as simple as where the community came from and you're golden.

[Fragony]

Just remember this when other instincts consider jumping in the way.

That there are certainly negative traits to certain communities, I'm quickly on board with you brother. Just remember that it is not as simple as where the community came from and you're golden.

Aren't certain instintcs a bit on on the side I kinda have a problem witb. The problem is political correctness. No discussion can be held within the very narrow margins that have been set. You can't have a discussion if it's confined. That should be a principle.

[Viking]

Presenting the topic of 'human races' as something black and white does it a great disservice, methinks.

I suggest that human genetics is like a mulitidimensional spectrum. If I go from Norway to Italy, I'll find that the average hair colour and eye colour is darker. Facial features are probably also slightly different. Perhaps even a slight change in average genetically induced pigmentation. Different races? Hardly. Many ethnic Norwegians could probably pass as ethnic Italians (if they'd been living under the Italian sun for some time) and vice versa.

Travelling even further south, to Libya; where Arabs live. Now the average hair and eye colours are even darker. Average pigmentation has also changed. Very few (if any at all) ethnic Norwegians could pass as ethnic Arab Libyans, and vice versa. Different races? Certainly starting to make a lot of sense now.

Move even further south and...you get the idea.

I think the concept of race - ironically, given the local obsession that can sometimes be found here - makes even less sense in the US, given the great mixing of different ethnicities that has taken place there. 'white' is no race, neither is 'black' - it's just skin colour and does not indicate whether the rest of the DNA is shared or not.

[Papewaio]

Weirdly enough, I think the best testing would be adopted children in Europe. Not because Europeans aren't going to treat the adopted as foreigners at times, but because we don't have that white vs black culture legacy in the way. We'll have much smaller range difference in how we treat them.

Like Obama's home environment.

[PanzerJaeger]

And what is white? what is black? What is hispanic?

Will someone who believes in races explain to me how we classify them?

Why don't we use the Census Bureau's model and allow people to self select, which is kind of the point. Race does exist in the US in 2014, at least in a social context; and it is clear that it has an effect on educational outcomes above and beyond economic factors. Unfortunately, intellectually lazy appeals to geneticism, while scientifically valid, ignore the impact that racially-derived cultural attitudes have on real people. Being born to self identified black parents automatically places one at a significant comparable disadvantage versus other racial groups, regardless of economic station. That's reality, and frankly, reciting the same line on race you read on Salon five years ago sidesteps the issue. (And this isn't targeted specifically at Strike. It just seems that any time race and the real impact it has on society is introduced into discussion, the usual suspects leap at the opportunity to repeat the same vapid 'race doesn't exist' line. It sounds intelligent but addresses nothing.)

[Beskar]

It just seems that any time race and the real impact it has on society is introduced into discussion, the usual suspects leap at the opportunity to repeat the same vapid 'race doesn't exist' line. It sounds intelligent but addresses nothing.

I disagree. The evidence based on socioeconomic factors just outweighs skin-colour so significantly, that sometimes people need to be repeatedly corrected, even though there is a small handful who seem obsessed at sticking to 19th century stereotypes for their own ideological superiority complexes.

It is usually the same handful where you point towards other minorities, they are often outspoken on those too. May it be on woman's rights, homosexuality, religion and name-it. Whilst it is common-consensus in day-to-day living to tolerate and accept others, without really much thought going into it, there are always those who seem to apply stigma where it is not really wanted or desired.