Segregation Returns to US Schools

[Kadagar_AV]

Why don't we use the Census Bureau's model and allow people to self select, which is kind of the point. Race does exist in the US in 2014, at least in a social context; and it is clear that it has an effect on educational outcomes above and beyond economic factors. Unfortunately, intellectually lazy appeals to geneticism, while scientifically valid, ignore the impact that racially-derived cultural attitudes have on real people. Being born to self identified black parents automatically places one at a significant comparable disadvantage versus other racial groups, regardless of economic station. That's reality, and frankly, reciting the same line on race you read on Salon five years ago sidesteps the issue. (And this isn't targeted specifically at Strike. It just seems that any time race and the real impact it has on society is introduced into discussion, the usual suspects leap at the opportunity to repeat the same vapid 'race doesn't exist' line. It sounds intelligent but addresses nothing.)

I must honestly say that it is more than a common fact that some ethnic groups do better than other ethnic groups in different areas of physical and psychological abilities.

Again: It's a FACT.

Heck, look at it logically... Intelligence is very obviously different in different ethnical groups, no? I mean seriously, if one hold against this argument they are extremely hard pressed to then explain how it comes that a species (homo sapiens sapiens) will evolve in a totally uniform manner no matter what surroundings they have.

That kind of goes against everything and all that we have learnt about evolution. Am I wrong?

The people claiming that we, as ethical groups, are all equal - have a HUGE intellectual mountain to climb. I dare anyone to say that ethnicity doesn't matter when it comes to general trends about intelligence.

Again, it's been proven over and over again. East Asians are a little bit smarter than Europeans. Heck, I am European and openly admit that YES, yes indeed, they are smarter in general than my countrymen. Where is the shame in this?

Same with black people, they tend to run faster and be more enduring than us white people. Why should this be a reason of shame for me? I know myself well enough to know I can run faster than the absolute majority of black people, and if you put us on a ski slope I am sure i would win even against the worlds best black skier / snowboarder.

So, what exactly is the problem?

Should black people not be proud of being faster?
Should East Asian people, or jews, not be proud that they rock the IQ charts?

I just don't get it, why cant we just accept that we are different?

Same thinking should at least be understood by everyone in an enlightened society. No?

Again: If you don't "believe" that people are different - as well as different ethnical groups are being different, you will be hard pressed to prove it. The argument FOR ethnical groups being different is easily proved...

You know, different skin colour, brain size, medical conditions and so on and so on...



http://www.ibc7.org/article/journal_v.php?sid=312 <- <- <- this is the link that was broken before... It shows that East Asians are a little bit smarter than Europeans, and that black people are completely off the scale.

The study basically checked which genes are in common for prospering students, and then checked where these genes could be found. IIRC the average number of good academical genes was around:

36 for east asians
32 for europeans
16 fore africans

Draw your own conclusions from it, I hope the link works this go around :)

Oh, and to repeat the main point of this thread.

To say that ethnical groups have the same cognitive abilities as any other groups goes against everything we know about evolution.

[Kadagar_AV]

I disagree. The evidence based on socioeconomic factors just outweighs skin-colour so significantly, that sometimes people need to be repeatedly corrected, even though there is a small handful who seem obsessed at sticking to 19th century stereotypes for their own ideological superiority complexes.

It is usually the same handful where you point towards other minorities, they are often outspoken on those too. May it be on woman's rights, homosexuality, religion and name-it. Whilst it is common-consensus in day-to-day living to tolerate and accept others, without really much thought going into it, there are always those who seem to apply stigma where it is not really wanted or desired.

Source?

I don't know about Germany, but here in Sweden some skin colours is very over-represented when it comes to certain crimes... And this over-representation remains when you account for socioeconomic factors.

We have loads of East Asian people who have moved here. They work hard and they do quite OK, second generation even perform excellent.. Compare that to Middle Eastern or Sub-Sahara-Africans and you will notice that they do a LOT worse than any other immigrant group.

Please don't tell me that straight biological factors (such as brain size and will to jump into bed with a family member) doesn't have an impact. Don't tell me cultural factors don't have an impact.

And guess what, if you take a guy with a really bad biological background (such as intra-family-marriage for hundreds of years), and combine that with a culture that just isn't very successful in modern society... And you will get a member of society who... How should I phrase it... "Are less probable to benefit society at large overly much".

This should be easy enough for anyone to understand.

[Tuuvi]

To say that ethnical groups have the same cognitive abilities as any other groups goes against everything we know about evolution.

We know why there are differences in skin color and other physical traits between populations, they are adaptations to different climates. But what would have pressured different groups to evolve differences in cognitive abilibities?

If Africans make such great athletes than how is it that they aren't evolved to be as good at skiing as white people?

[Husar]

Why don't we use the Census Bureau's model and allow people to self select, which is kind of the point.

So how would that work? A guy with a black skin can select to be white and gets to live in an upper class neighborhood? And a white-skinned person can select latino and go live in a middle class neighborhood?

Race does exist in the US in 2014, at least in a social context; and it is clear that it has an effect on educational outcomes above and beyond economic factors. Unfortunately, intellectually lazy appeals to geneticism, while scientifically valid, ignore the impact that racially-derived cultural attitudes have on real people. Being born to self identified black parents automatically places one at a significant comparable disadvantage versus other racial groups, regardless of economic station. That's reality, and frankly, reciting the same line on race you read on Salon five years ago sidesteps the issue. (And this isn't targeted specifically at Strike. It just seems that any time race and the real impact it has on society is introduced into discussion, the usual suspects leap at the opportunity to repeat the same vapid 'race doesn't exist' line. It sounds intelligent but addresses nothing.)

I don't even know what Salon five is, and what is a self identified black parent? How many people with yellow, green and "white" skin self identify as blacks and how many people with black skin self identify as yellow? And why are economic factors the base of educational outcome? Does that mean if they're too poor they have a bad base anyway?

[Fragony]

I don't think Kadagar understands evolution as he thinks he does. The very few proven differences that exist are negligible compared to life-style, education, and socio-economic status.

You can't be sure of that, that it might in fact be racial that some ethnicities don't perform as good as other should't be dismissed by default. It's perfectly possible. Why couldn't it be? Gimme that. I know it's an insulting thought to make but I am ok with that, also ok with possibly offending.

[Beskar]

Source?

Montmorency linked a very good one on the previous page. I suggest reading it.

Please don't tell me that straight biological factors (such as brain size and will to jump into bed with a family member) doesn't have an impact. Don't tell me cultural factors don't have an impact.

You mean like Iceland or ourselves before urbanization of our populations? Norse regions were especially prone due to this due to their sparse landscapes of resources, yet, we heard stories about those mead-swilling uneducated pagans which ambushed our shores. With their statistically higher crime-rates and ill-culture and now Norse society is deemed one of the pinnacles of human progress.

The thing is, you seem to fail to see how history is constantly playing out, over and over. Comparing some some random backwater which doesn't even have much access to water which doesn't have as many university degrees as a upper-class suburb is not taking note of reality. If the genetics of 'race' played such a significant difference, then I shouldn't be able to go to work and see doctors of colour who out-educate the both of us together many times over, they should be severely stunted to such levels according to your beliefs yet they are not. There is a great many reasons which come into play on a socio-economic level and you cannot really account for them at all due to the difficulty in able to manage it. Culture comes under socioeconomic factors, culture is not inherent in a persons being, there are different cultures in a city-by-city basis too, nevermind intra-city populations.

[Beskar]

You can't be sure of that, that it might in fact be racial that some ethnicities don't perform as good as other should't be dismissed by default. It's perfectly possible. Why couldn't it be? Gimme that. I know it's an insulting thought to make but I am ok with that, also ok with possibly offending.

The differences between people are statistically insignificant in the population when it comes to race, as it has been stated before, there is more intra-genetic differences than there are between said 'races'. In short, there is more variation in you and me, Fragony, then there is between one of us and a 'black' person. Certain people genetically are prone to various pros and cons in various situations but that is down to an individual basis, such as height and other measures but this isn't down as some mythical block-group of race. There are factors such as Sickle-cell which allowed some populations greater resistance against malaria at the cost of them blocking the blood vessels but this isn't some inherent trait on a race basis.

So are there genetic differences? Yes.
Do these differences reflect 'race' constructs ? No

[Myth]

You mean like Iceland or ourselves before urbanization of our populations? Norse regions were especially prone due to this due to their sparse landscapes of resources, yet, we heard stories about those mead-swilling uneducated pagans which ambushed our shores. With their statistically higher crime-rates and ill-culture and now Norse society is deemed one of the pinnacles of human progress.
.

I know It's off topic, but I couldn't find mead anywhere in Copenhagen. They've gone soft, man. They've gone soft.

[The Lurker Below]

Should black people not be proud of being faster?

To say that ethnical groups have the same cognitive abilities as any other groups goes against everything we know about evolution.

/ignoring the false premise

They should not, we'll take that away from them too!



It would also be disingenuous to declare your premise false and not acknowledge that a large portion of people share it. Case in point, the responses to the above video.

[HoreTore]

Kadagar has posted one bogus "study", which is nothing more than ramblings from a non-scientist(who also dabbles in parapsychology, that's a sign of quality!), with no more access to cool scientist stuff than we do.

He has been given a proper source, a paper written by real scientists with credentials(you know, those you can't order by mail).

He has chosen to ignore the latter source, and continue to drone on with the assumption that the former source means something. As it's just nonsense, his posts are as unintentionally hilarious as they always are.

[HoreTore]

I know It's off topic, but I couldn't find mead anywhere in Copenhagen. They've gone soft, man. They've gone soft.

You can, but mead is a fruitwine. It's not a manly beer.

[HopAlongBunny]

I believe mead is fermented from honey; I made a number of variations on the stuff over ~15 years, some with fruit...all with honey :)

[HoreTore]

I believe mead is fermented from honey; I made a number of variations on the stuff over ~15 years, some with fruit...all with honey :)

It is indeed fermentedfrom honey, but fruits are added for flavour. At least in the north..

[Kadagar_AV]

So... can anyone link to a peer reviewed report that clearly shows that white people have as much IQ as East-Asian people?

From what I have seen, us whites seem to be sub par intellectually compared to them angled eyes :)

Also, again... I do believe that black guys run better than white guys. I am not saying that every black guy run better than any white guy - I am saying that those small genetic differences makes black people better at running.

There is a ****load of information on the topic.

Discovery Channel have run a documentary starring Morgan Freeman as narrator, that explains the racial differences rather well - from my perspective. Look it up :)

I am of course not saying Discovery holds the truth, but it's a pleasant way to learn about the subject, and it will give you a ton of material to resource further.

There has been studies showing no big concern, yes. Generally they worked with an extremely limited amount of test subjects.

More general studies of course shows that racial differences do exist.

It's kind of a "Doh!" that people under different environmental circumstances will evolve in different ways.

Mind you, I talk solely about IQ here. I haven't really dug in to it, but I happily assume that black people might well absolutely kick white peoples behind, in other fields than pure IQ - intellectual power.

There are what? Gardner found 7 intelligence's (IQ being one)... I think today we measure 8 intelligence's though, I really haven't read up much on it the last years.

[HoreTore]

So, we have now moved on from one rubbish paper by a parapsychology fan, to the discovery channel...

What an improvement. I can smell the quality!

[Husar]

I've been saying this for years and now I found a linky and a quoty for you:

http://www.brainy-child.com/expert/i...chooling.shtml

A few more truths about schooling and IQ (which may surprise anyone who views it as a measure of innate intelligence):

Although intelligence does influence the decision to stay in school, staying in school itself can raise IQ or prevent it from dropping.

IQ is affected by delayed schooling. A drop in IQ is seen when schooling is delayed.

Each additional month a student remains in school may increase her/his IQ above what would have been expected had he dropped out.

IQ is affected by remaining in school longer. The longer a student stays in school, the higher her/his IQ.

Dropping out of school can also decrease IQ.

IQ is affected by vacations. The longer the vacation, especially when the child's time is spent on least "mind-stimulating" activities, this decline is evident. (So, parents – make sure your child's holidays are filled with learning experiences in a fun way; e.g., visiting places of interest, enrichment programs, family-bonding activities, etc.)

In short, schooling has a long-term effect on the level of intelligence. Education increases a student's capacity to deal with the problem solving tasks typically found in intelligence tests; therefore a student who has mastered those skills at school will inevitably do well on an IQ test.

[Husar]

I've been saying this for years and now I found a linky and a quoty for you:

http://www.brainy-child.com/expert/i...chooling.shtml

A few more truths about schooling and IQ (which may surprise anyone who views it as a measure of innate intelligence):

Although intelligence does influence the decision to stay in school, staying in school itself can raise IQ or prevent it from dropping.

IQ is affected by delayed schooling. A drop in IQ is seen when schooling is delayed.

Each additional month a student remains in school may increase her/his IQ above what would have been expected had he dropped out.

IQ is affected by remaining in school longer. The longer a student stays in school, the higher her/his IQ.

Dropping out of school can also decrease IQ.

IQ is affected by vacations. The longer the vacation, especially when the child's time is spent on least "mind-stimulating" activities, this decline is evident. (So, parents – make sure your child's holidays are filled with learning experiences in a fun way; e.g., visiting places of interest, enrichment programs, family-bonding activities, etc.)

In short, schooling has a long-term effect on the level of intelligence. Education increases a student's capacity to deal with the problem solving tasks typically found in intelligence tests; therefore a student who has mastered those skills at school will inevitably do well on an IQ test.

[Kadagar_AV]

I've been saying this for years and now I found a linky and a quoty for you:

http://www.brainy-child.com/expert/i...chooling.shtml

Yeah, jolly good...

I do however have a notion:

How come East Asian kids chose to stay in school and move on to university - more than black kids. I guess it comes down to the story of the chicken and the egg...

Are white people sub-par compared to East Asian people, or does the white people belong to a culture that sets them apart from East Asians?

Genetics aside, one have to be blind on both eyes and an ear to actually believe every race is identical.

I am secure in myself and my abilities, thus I have no problem with openly stating that I indeed do believe west German Jews and eastern Asians beat my own ethnic group.

Am I wrong?

[Montmorency]

Here is the fundamental problem with biological race, Kad:

1. Banana, school bus, the sun.
2. Algae, grass, leaves.

What do the things in (1) have in common? They are yellow. Otherwise, they're about as different as you can get.
What do the things in (2) have in common? They are green - because chlorophyll is a fundamental constituent within their cellular structure. They are closely related as plant life.

Now, what you do with human groups is form something like (1) up there, and then ask, "But surely there are differences between this and other groups!"

Yes, Kad, obviously there are differences. The point is that there are no systematic differences because there is no systematic fine-grained relationship between various groups of "blacks", just as there is none between groups of "whites", or between both, when it comes to most attributes you'd care to name.

If you want to triangulate useful racial classifications then look for small and isolated kinship groups to start with. For instance, it could be that the Tarahumara and the Kalenjin constitute a more useful racial categorization from the biological perspective than what you currently rely on.

TLDR: Your racial categories are bogus and you need knew ones.

[Husar]

For all the stereotyping of racism in America, I see more insidious and eloquent defenses of racism from Europeans right here on these forums than I ever hear from Americans (lol, with a few exceptions). Kadagar trots out the over-representation of minorities in the criminal justice systems of Europe as something he can lean on to prove that they are more inherently trouble-making, and yet never considers that maybe they're just arrested more often because the cops have views like Kadagar's... That high horse isn't so high, O throwers of banana peals

Give me a break, man! I've been saying in every other Euro-matters thread that it's the nationalists and the racists here in Europe who are standing in the way of us achieving our true inherent superiority as a European master race...

[Kadagar_AV]

lol.. "Has as much IQ."

Kadagar, you use this IQ argument over and over, while people try to explain to you that your IQ score is not a static measurement of brain power. Its a test, designed for people raised and educated in a western manner. If someone doesn't care about studying because he grew up in an impoverished ghetto, he won't score as high on an IQ test. That's not indicative of his intelligence, but his motivation and socio-economic status. This is what has been proven over and over again, and yet people still try to trot out the differences as something inherent and racial. For all the stereotyping of racism in America, I see more insidious and eloquent defenses of racism from Europeans right here on these forums than I ever hear from Americans. Kadagar trots out the over-representation of minorities in the criminal justice systems of Europe as something he can lean on to prove that they are more inherently trouble-making, and yet never considers that maybe they're just arrested more often because the cops have views like Kadagar's... That high horse isn't so high, O throwers of banana peals

1. Rubbish.

2. You might want to use the "enter" button more frequently while writing on forums.

3. Thanks for informing me about the limits of IQ (golf clap), it's not AT ALL like I already referenced to Gardner.

4. Yes, I believe inherent racial traits exist. I am not saying white people can't run, I am saying that you might have to put your dream of being world champ on hold - if you are white.

5. This is the kicker:

Kadagar trots out the over-representation of minorities in the criminal justice systems of Europe as something he can lean on to prove that they are more inherently trouble-making

I honestly don't care if blacks or arabs are a trouble for society because of genetic or environmental factors. I just note that they indeed are a problem towards wetsern democratic society - No matter the reason.

I really, really, REALLY don't give a **** why Arabs and Sub-Saharan Africans become a problem when joining western society.

I just note that they are problematic. <- do you get my point?

The reason they are problematic - I think we in the west should fight against. I'm not sure letting those people severely influent our demographics is the right way to go here...

[Montmorency]

No matter the reason.

Er, if the environment is the problem then changing the environment is obviously the solution.

What you're basically saying is, 'I hate dark people too much to want to invest resources into making them productive within my society.'

[Kadagar_AV]

Er, if the environment is the problem then changing the environment is obviously the solution.

What you're basically saying is, 'I hate dark people too much to want to invest resources into making them productive within my society.'

I don't "hate" black people. I just generally look down on their culture, and I would prefer if their culture didn't spread around where I live. I guess I just fail to see why, say, Somali culture would bring something positive to Sweden.

My argument didn't have spaces and kadagar referenced a study he clearly didn't understand in reference to his own argument. Oh dear, I guess racism is justified then.

What about the study didn't I understand?

By the way, I see myself as a realist, not a racist...

I have no problem with immigration, if it's done right.

Heck GC, you think the Indians LIKED what the European immigration did for them?

Whenever people talk about immigration, remember the Indians.

Sweden has a long and proud history, as do most European nations. Why should we kill this nice place of the world, in the name of multiculturalism?

[Montmorency]

Then why are you on about race, Kad?

And there's a difference between immigration into a national state and violent colonization into occupied land.

[Kadagar_AV]

If you understand that IQ tests aren't a measure of brain power but instead a measure of adaptation to standards, then at least one of your posts makes very little sense--namely the one I responded to.

IQ tests only test the IQ level of people doing the test.

There are of course a strong correlation between IQ and doing well in school. Academically speaking, of course. It's not like the supreme IQ guys decorate their christmas tree with underwear, is it?

No, when the Aliens show up on our door-step with advanced technology asking if they can set up a trading post, then you remember the Indians. When poor North Africans and Middle-Easterners are flooding into your country in search of opportunity, only to find that it comes at the cost of their dignity, you have little to fear but the eventual cost of your attitude.

The cost I am afraid of is a society with little or no thinking of "the greater good", a society where rich industry owners decide to give their jobs to analphabetic Somalis rather than University schooled Swedes.

The cost is that you no longer trust your neighbor, or the people sharing insurance with you. The cost is that jobs you could have had goes to people not borne in the country, the cost is that you don't feel safe walking home, the cost is your daughter being called a whore in school because she had a knee long dress...

THAT is the price, monetary matters have little to do with it.

Then why are you on about race, Kad?

And there's a difference between immigration into a national state and violent colonization into occupied land.

I'm on about race because I believe different races have different characteristics

[Montmorency]

Not sure what my post is doing there, as you evidently didn't read it.

[Kadagar_AV]

Not sure what my post is doing there, as you evidently didn't read it.

If I misunderstood you, would you mind breaking your argument down to something a person who have English as their second or third language would easily understand?

[Montmorency]

I'm on about race because I believe different races have different characteristics

Yeah, that's obvious. If you grab three random people and compare them to three random people, of course there will be differences.

The point is, you aren't going to be able to make generalizations of any useful sort about those random individuals, or whatever arbitrary grouping you expand from them.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah, that's obvious. If you grab three random people and compare them to three random people, of course there will be differences.

The point is, you aren't going to be able to make generalizations of any useful sort about those random individuals, or whatever arbitrary grouping you expand from them.

BS.

Hmm, maybe I should elaborate.

Absolute BS.

Should I elaborate more?

For me it is obvious that African people south of Sahara tend to be darker skinned than others. For me it is obvious that Eastern Asians have tilted eyes compared to the people in the west...

The physical differences are obvious and non-negotiable. To then claim that our brains would be the same is, to say the least, stretching imagination to its fullest.

SERIOUSLY guys, different living conditions leads to different evolution. That is pure fact, and I honestly don't get how or why people would argue against it.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah, that's obvious. If you grab three random people and compare them to three random people, of course there will be differences.

The point is, you aren't going to be able to make generalizations of any useful sort about those random individuals, or whatever arbitrary grouping you expand from them.

This is such a laughable argument that I should just let it pass. But then, I'm not sure every viewer will get the logical fallacy.

I can for a fact say that Austrians are more likely to own a pair of skis compared to Australians.

I can for a fact say that Somali men are more prone to chew Khat than Swedish men, but then Swedish men are more likely to use snus (snuff) than any other nation in the world.

I am being extremely crystal clear about different ethnic groups tending to act differently in certain situations.