Looking for info and tips regarding Koinon Hellenon

[Savriss]

Hi there,

I've only recently discovered Europa Barbarorum after a friend suggested it during my disappointment with RII. I'm really enjoying engineering a resurgence of the Koinon Hellenon but I am a little bit bewildered by the amount of new stuff, which is both exciting and intimidating. I was hoping to pick up some tips and help here.

1. Most importantly, the hoplite formations on guard mode seem pretty effective, but getting them into a fight is pretty difficult. Often one unit will be sucked into a fight and the unit besides it will remain oblivious, bare metres away from the fight. Is there any way to get them to push into a combat without breaking formation?
2. That being said, the most obvious benefit I have observed about guard mode is how much it preserves stamina. If I have to charge a flank with hoplites, is there any reason to continue using guard mode.
3. When hoplites are being fired on, is guard mode helpful?
4. Is there anything I can do to make phalanxes break faster? Even when entirely surrounded, they regularly fight to 30% strength before breaking.
5. Additionally, they seem able to reverse their spears in the middle of combat and force-push a flanking unit to a convenient distance. Is this intended or is there a way to stop it?
6. For RP purposes, I'm only sending men of Spartan blood through the appropriate training. For everyone else, how effective are schools and academies? Should new generals spend a year or two in a centre of learning before going to war?
7. Is there any way to get effective spies, such as a mechanic I am not aware of yet? The only way I've discovered so far is to have them shadow enemy units and spy on them every turn but even then, they often have very low chances to infiltrate important settlements.
8. Due to wars with Makedon and Epeiros, Athens has been stripped bare of population, from which it's only recovering almost 8 years later; I love this mechanic! However, do the other factions suffer the same issue? While I didn't have a spy able to tell me for sure, it seemed as though Makedon's last holdout was able to summon troops every turn. In the last half of the war, they lost a lot of territory very fast, so I imagine they had the money to do it but population is another matter entirely.
9. Is there any way to tell which units have secondary weapons and, if so, how effective they are? I've read that Thorakitai Hoplites have AP swords, but not Classical Hoplites.
10. Do the Thorakitai intentionally render the Thureophoroi irrelevant or am I missing something?
11. Are Ekdromoi Hoplitai good for anything?
12. The Ptolemaic dynasty is just about the only faction to my east. Is there any way to render them impotent, such as an attack on the Nile cities, or have I already lost this game? They have all the coastal land and have taken the Seleucids cities on the mass of land that includes Halicarnassus.

Regards,
Savriss.

[QuintusSertorius]

Greetings, welcome to EB!

I'll take as many of your questions as I can, though bear in mind I'm not a dev/mod and I've gleaned bits and pieces along the way.
1&2: That's guard mode working as designed. The reason for the lower fatigue is that often most of the unit isn't actually fighting. They stay in formation regardless, unless pressed by someone else pushing into it.
3: I don't think guard mode makes any difference to missile fire. Only the direction it's coming from, since the shield only protects front and left from missiles (and defensive skill does nothing against them).
4: It's a criticism sometimes levelled at EB that phalanxes are "overpowered". If you're playing on Hard or Very Hard battle difficulty, the AI is getting bonuses that make phalanxes virtually impossible to break except by attrition, which is no fun. That said, hitting them with cavalry charges (by lance-armed cavalry) from the rear will reduce numbers very quickly. Make sure you're carrying the charges out correctly, with levelled lances (there's a trumpet call and you see them drop them beforehand), from the right distance. Look up Ibrahim's thread on cavalry charges if you're not sure, there's an art to it.
5: An unfortunate artefact of the way phalanxes are programmed, nothing you can do about it.
6: Academies are good for developing governor-traits. I always park new FMs in my capital (which always has a school) for a couple of years before sending them out to get educated and pick up ancillaries. But every building has an impact. A province with roads and ports tends to improve trading ability. FMs often become devotees of the temple they spend a long time with. The game field/gymnasium increases the FM's fitness (more hit points). Much-used barracks will give them recruitment-related traits.
7: Spies need to spend their initial turns in a settlement with an Agora or better, which gets rid of the Raw Recruit trait. Leaving them in a settlement for a bit gives them the Guildmaster trait, which boosts their ability for the turn they leave, which might be enough to get them into a hard to enter settlement.
8: The AI is population-limited too, but tends to depopulate quite quickly. However, I think the script which adds population back to stop them distorting things too badly.
9: None of the hoplite units have a secondary weapon, because it's bugged. The same bug exists in M2TW as well, they charge with their secondary then switch to primary.
10: Yes, they're an evolution, though Thureophoroi have better stamina. If you're roleplaying it, you should leave Thorakitai until you've used Thureophoroi a fair bit, maybe come into contact with mail-armoured opponents like the Romani and Makedonian reformed hoplites.
11: Thureophoroi are probably better at the same job of being infantry flankers.
12: Ah, the Yellow Death. I'm afraid you've probably lost the game if they've eaten the Qarthadastim and have nearly finished off the Seleukids.

One last thing: cavalry. With KH your factional selection is rather poor; you don't even get good cavalry for your Family Member's bodyguard, like with Epeiros or Makedonia. Mercenary-wise, Curepos are brilliant mediums - they have javelins for skirmishing and lances for charges to the rear of formations. Thrakian Prodromoi are very good for shock charges to the rear, and have the stamina to do it more than a couple of time (unlike Thessalians and other heavies). Lonchophoroi are pretty good too, the Hellenistic Mercenary Generals (well worth hiring if you have type IV governments anywhere) have an upgraded version of them for their bodyguard.

[Ca Putt]

3. no, as they tend to stand a tad bit closer together it might actually increace casualties by a percent or two.
4. surrounding isn't as effective as repeated charging(in the rear). If you can get your Hands on Hippeis Xystophoroi, Prodromoi, Lonchophoroi Hippeis or Illyrioi Hippeis that would increace your chances, but even a Charge from regular Hippeis, Hipparkontistai* or Infantry can do wonders vs a wavering unit. As your Access to Fear inducing Units is limited at best try fireing some burning arrows at them. Preferably from the back or non shielded side and Preferably by cretans, but Toxotai can do that aswell. When all that comes together It's likely the enemy will flee.
6. I do the same for RP reasons ^^ - Spartans to sparta all others get their "Basic Training" in Athens.
8. yeah, I think it was 100 men at large(200 at huge) that the AI gets "refunded" when Training a unit. But as the AI sucks at citybuilding and Pop Management they still often run out of Pop.
9. yup, Secondary melee weapons tend to be used in exactly the wrong Moment^^. If hoplites had secondaries KH would be impossible to survive early on, also a reason why reformed hoplites(those with Oval shields and no javelins) suck so badly.
10. Thureophoroi are cheaper. they fill slightly different roles. as mentioned above.
11. meh, not really**. They make passable flankers when you for some odd reason don't have Thureophoroi and make passable lineholders when you don't have hoplitai. So early on their quite decent but once you can choose what Units to field, their basically a style conform flanker/chaser when you use a classical hoplite army.
12. If you manage to securure your Anatolian Holdings and become insanely rich you can field a huge navy to controll the mediterranean and Land elite City takers on thier coasts when their army is buisy marching from Alexandria to Sardis. Taking their Coastal cities and destroying everything causes them to Train mainly levy troops and you might just take all your Victory condition cities at once ;) - otherwise as QS already stated: you're doomed :D

@QuintusSertorius: Their Cav selection is not all that bad, they just lack the cav availibility in Sparta and some other cities. once you have your MICs Leveld up in the North the only Thing you have a good cav selection:
Xystophoroi are no Hetairoi but still are great chargers and pretty cheap(for elite heavy cavalry) aswell.
Illyrians also pack a reasonable Punch and are dirt cheap.
Hippakontistai may be rather weak but do wonders against Elephants and do a good Job at chasing Routers
Even the most sucky Hippeis have their uses, unlike most cav their reasonable capable in melee(against non spearmen ;) )
Just Aspidophoroi I can't use. Terrible AOR, Exceedingly expensive, no Charge, practically Peltmaks on a horse, thus they suck in sieges :D . I'd rather just get lonchophoroi + Hippakontistai.

So while their Cav selection isn't in the top 10, it's not terrible aswell, It's decent.

*tho they will most likely die if you fail to rout them on Impact ;)
**as in : there not really usefull for anything

Ps: excuse me, my autocorrect is set to german and has an interesting idea of what a noun is ;)

[QuintusSertorius]

Their Cav selection is not all that bad, they just lack the cav availibility in Sparta and some other cities. once you have your MICs Leveld up in the North the only Thing you have a good cav selection:
Xystophoroi are no Hetairoi but still are great chargers and pretty cheap(for elite heavy cavalry) aswell.
Illyrians also pack a reasonable Punch and are dirt cheap.
Hippakontistai may be rather weak but do wonders against Elephants and do a good Job at chasing Routers
Even the most sucky Hippeis have their uses, unlike most cav their reasonable capable in melee(against non spearmen ;) )
Just Aspidophoroi I can't use. Terrible AOR, Exceedingly expensive, no Charge, practically Peltmaks on a horse, thus they suck in sieges :D . I'd rather just get lonchophoroi + Hippakontistai.

So while their Cav selection isn't in the top 10, it's not terrible aswell, It's decent.

*tho they will most likely die if you fail to rout them on Impact ;)
**as in : there not really usefull for anything

Ps: excuse me, my autocorrect is set to german and has an interesting idea of what a noun is ;)

As far as I'm concerned, there are only two types of useful cavalry: those with javelins and those with AP lances. If they don't have one of those, they're a waste of money, since any old light infantry will do for killing routing units (which is all cavalry who don't have one or both of those things can do).

Illyrians as you mentioned, are brilliant and good value. They not only have AP lances, but AP axes as well, which means they are extremely good at killing even heavy cavalry if they get stuck in melee (though this should be avoided if possible). I'd put them a step below Curepos, though, since they have javelins. These two are the mercs worth hiring in the early game. When you don't have cavalry generals, you really need AP lancers for breaking enemy infantry, and these are the most economical options.

Hippakontistai are good for putting javelins into the back of enemy infantry, and killing the resulting flight. Plus cheap as chips. They're good to have if you already have some AP lancers and just want to round out your cavalry options.

Xystophoroi are ridiculously expensive, and just like Thessalians are knackered after two charges. Tired cavalry are useless cavalry.

Hippeis are worthless, though. No missile weapons, no AP melee weapons, no stamina for repeated charges. All they're good for is chasing down routers, which isn't terribly useful at all. Better off saving your money for Illyrians or Curepos. Or later in the game, Lonchophoroi (who are like a superior, upgraded version of Hippeis). The only reason to recruit them is if you literally have no other cavalry options at all.

[Savriss]

Whew! Thanks for the responses, there's a lot to think on!

1. From the information gained, are Thorakitai Hoplites (spear primary, AP sword secondary) and Iphikratous Hoplitai a bad choice to replace classical hoplites with?
2. Do classical hoplites remain relevant throughout the entire game, due to this issue with secondary weapons?
3. Do hippakontistai (javelin cavalry) make much of an impact, despite their small unit size? Are they a good replace for peltasts or an accompaniment?
4. In a 'modern' army, is there any use for akontistai (unarmoured javelineers) ? I've found them largely redundant to peltasts but I occasionally miss their sheer number of javelins.

As for the Ptolemaics, things are not as lost as they seem. A spy is now scouting the area and the Seleucids are still alive deeper inland. I have largely uncontested control of the eastern Mediterranean and they show me that the Nile cities are almost unguarded, so I'm putting together an army as quickly as possible to go cause mayhem. I feel a little bad as the Ptolemaics have, thus far, been immaculately friendly allies. There's a main army and a baggage train of spares to top up units as best as possible, but reinforcements should be as easy as getting ships back and forth.
For this new army, I had the following layout planned,
2 generals, compromising 1 fearsome old bastard and his just unleashed son of 16 years old (he'll be 17 when the fleet sets sail).
4 classical hoplites.
2 Thorakitai hoplites, for AP.
1 spartan hoplite.
2 Thorakitai (the javelin ones, not the AP hoplites).
2 peltasts.
2 cretan archers.
1 rhodian slingers.
2 heavy cavalry of whatever I can dig up.

5. Should I drop the Thorakitai hoplites for more classicals or the cheaper haploi?
6. Would adding hippakontistai be too much, or rather replace the peltasts?
7. Is it worth trying to hold a Nile city, or better to raze everything and run away with the loot?

And finally,
8. Does bribing ever work on anything more than 2 unit armies?
9. Stupid Pontus people won't make peace with me even though they only have 1 province left, really?! Are there programmed hatreds?

[athanaric]

1. From the information gained, are Thorakitai Hoplites (spear primary, AP sword secondary) and Iphikratous Hoplitai a bad choice to replace classical hoplites with?

No. They're different, but worth having as well. They're better on walls since they have swords.

2. Do classical hoplites remain relevant throughout the entire game, due to this issue with secondary weapons?

Yes, since they're good against cavalry and have a powerful charge. As KH though, you don't need them that much since you have a lot of other spearmen choices. They're more important for foreign factions campagining in Greece.

3. Do hippakontistai (javelin cavalry) make much of an impact, despite their small unit size? Are they a good replace for peltasts or an accompaniment?

Different battlefield role. Hippakontistai are useful, but not in the same fields as Peltastai are.

4. In a 'modern' army, is there any use for akontistai (unarmoured javelineers) ? I've found them largely redundant to peltasts but I occasionally miss their sheer number of javelins.

It's a matter of taste. I dislike using them in a "professional" army because they're near useless once their missiles are spent.

5. Should I drop the Thorakitai hoplites for more classicals or the cheaper haploi?

No.

6. Would adding hippakontistai be too much, or rather replace the peltasts?

See above. Although it is generally advisable to have at least one unit of light cavalry in every army.

8. Does bribing ever work on anything more than 2 unit armies?

Yes, if you have enough money. For more tips on bribing, see the guide in my signature. Should be in there somewhere.

9. Stupid Pontus people won't make peace with me even though they only have 1 province left, really?! Are there programmed hatreds?

Yes, the AI is programmed to hate the human players. Typical for game developers who're too lazy to develop a sensible AI.

As far as I'm concerned, there are only two types of useful cavalry: those with javelins and those with AP lances. If they don't have one of those, they're a waste of money, since any old light infantry will do for killing routing units (which is all cavalry who don't have one or both of those things can do).

Illyrians as you mentioned, are brilliant and good value. They not only have AP lances, but AP axes as well, which means they are extremely good at killing even heavy cavalry if they get stuck in melee (though this should be avoided if possible). I'd put them a step below Curepos, though, since they have javelins. These two are the mercs worth hiring in the early game. When you don't have cavalry generals, you really need AP lancers for breaking enemy infantry, and these are the most economical options.
[...]

Xystophoroi are ridiculously expensive, and just like Thessalians are knackered after two charges. Tired cavalry are useless cavalry.

Hippeis are worthless, though. No missile weapons, no AP melee weapons, no stamina for repeated charges. All they're good for is chasing down routers, which isn't terribly useful at all. Better off saving your money for Illyrians or Curepos. Or later in the game, Lonchophoroi (who are like a superior, upgraded version of Hippeis). The only reason to recruit them is if you literally have no other cavalry options at all.

That's a little bit extreme IMO. Firstly, some units (even infantry) are an absolute pain to catch if you don't have light cavalry, regardless of armament. Secondly, AFAIK lancers only have the AP trait and high lethality because the team wanted to give their charge extra power. So their relative power (despite low attack value and speed) is probably unintended.
I also found Xystophoroi and similar units very useful. Regarding the cavalry roster of the KH, it's actually quite good if you ignore AoR issues. You can't really place the Casse cavalry roster above theirs.

[Ca Putt]

surely Hippeis are really not that usefull, as they don't do that much in a Charge, have no AP and no Javelins. BUT they do quite well at catching cavalry and fighting them. They are still overpriced and not at all great, but their not useless, especially not as KH, who lack Cav Generals.

Xystophoroi are however somewhat cheaper than Tessalians and just marginally weaker. They deliver a great Charge and are reasonable well armoured, sure they tire a bit to quick for EB tactics, but when you have ekdromoi or Hippeis to Keep the enemy occupied, it's doable. Generally KH has the Units to slow down the battle^^

I'd put them a step below Curepos, though, since they have javelins.

Yeah, that's fair. I was just listing Units trainable within the immediate Expansion area. Also, everybody knows Curepos are great :D

So while not top 10 their cav outranks that of the other "A Scotsman on a Horse?" factions by far(sweboz, Saba, early Romani), while not being too far behind factions like to Lusotani, late Romani Casse or Pontos*.

Edit: Oh I took to Long to post this:

1. Depends, They have their Advantages, but without proper guidance they are bugged and tend to underpreform. However they are the historical choice plus they are Superior on walls.

2. Pretty much, you could replace them as above or Reform your army to a barbarian style thorakitai army. But the Huge AOR makes insanely usefull.

3. They fool the enemy into them being hit by a cavalry unit for about a second, then they notice it's just some Hippakontistai. So when you're not sure the enemy will rout on Impact, don't let them Charge in there. - I personally consider Peltasts a bit more reliable and they can double as Line infantry in a few situations. So I would not replace them ;)

4. the best Garrison in game. And If you're desperate.

5. Nah, they may not be as reliable but the AP does help at times(use them at the flanks, not the Center)

6. They would help, they work well together with the heavy cav.

7. Probably not, unless you want to rule the world, then you might aswell start there.
btw when you take Kyrene and give it a 15-20 men garrison(garrison troops, not an elite army) it's great for distracting the AI, they will march through the desert, tieing up their armies and draining their morale.

8. sometimes.

9. The AI hates you when you have a common border, no matter their own strength. Plus they hate you by script.

*unless you are good at using Chariots, then those are great and considerably better than KH ;)

[QuintusSertorius]

Whew! Thanks for the responses, there's a lot to think on!

1. From the information gained, are Thorakitai Hoplites (spear primary, AP sword secondary) and Iphikratous Hoplitai a bad choice to replace classical hoplites with?
2. Do classical hoplites remain relevant throughout the entire game, due to this issue with secondary weapons?
3. Do hippakontistai (javelin cavalry) make much of an impact, despite their small unit size? Are they a good replace for peltasts or an accompaniment?
4. In a 'modern' army, is there any use for akontistai (unarmoured javelineers) ? I've found them largely redundant to peltasts but I occasionally miss their sheer number of javelins.

1&2: The difficulty here is that Classical Hoplites are a very good value unit. Sure they have only spears and no secondary, but they're solid and also available as mercenaries all over the place. They are durable against virtually everything bar a Macedonian-style phalanx. Even then then can hold one for a time while you smash the rear of the phalanx with cavalry. The secondary weapon issue doesn't really detract from their usefulness; they're perfect for holding the centre of a line, or covering the immediate flanks of a phalanx.
3: Hippakontistai perform a different role to Peltastai. You can't use them as flankers, but they've good for slipping around the battle line and putting javelins into the back of enemy units. That can break weaker units, and they then mop up the routers. You can also use them to (briefly) halt enemy cavalry while you mobilise your spearmen.
4: While I mostly use them as garrison troops, I do include (a single unit of) akontistai in my armies for roleplaying purposes, representing various poorer troops or Hellenised natives (they're the "Mysian javelineers" in my Pergamon army). It also increases the challenge; Peltastai are another good value unit who are not only good at their main job of skirmishing, but are also decent medium infantry. You can't really use Akontistai as flankers after they've thrown all their javelins, as you can with Peltastai. Not unless things are really desparate.

As for the Ptolemaics, things are not as lost as they seem. A spy is now scouting the area and the Seleucids are still alive deeper inland. I have largely uncontested control of the eastern Mediterranean and they show me that the Nile cities are almost unguarded, so I'm putting together an army as quickly as possible to go cause mayhem. I feel a little bad as the Ptolemaics have, thus far, been immaculately friendly allies. There's a main army and a baggage train of spares to top up units as best as possible, but reinforcements should be as easy as getting ships back and forth.
For this new army, I had the following layout planned,
2 generals, compromising 1 fearsome old bastard and his just unleashed son of 16 years old (he'll be 17 when the fleet sets sail).
4 classical hoplites.
2 Thorakitai hoplites, for AP.
1 spartan hoplite.
2 Thorakitai (the javelin ones, not the AP hoplites).
2 peltasts.
2 cretan archers.
1 rhodian slingers.
2 heavy cavalry of whatever I can dig up.

5. Should I drop the Thorakitai hoplites for more classicals or the cheaper haploi?
6. Would adding hippakontistai be too much, or rather replace the peltasts?
7. Is it worth trying to hold a Nile city, or better to raze everything and run away with the loot?

5: More classical hoplites, IMO - not only are they cheaper, but you can easily replace serious losses (after merging units) with readily available mercenary versions. Don't bother with Haploi, they're garrison troops and nothing else. Unless you want to add some roleplaying/challenge (I did that in my Epeiros game, replacing one unit of Classical with Levy to make it harder).
6: I'd say replace one unit of Kretans with Hippakontistai. One unit of Kretans is already a big advantage (they're murder on unarmoured infantry), two is easy-mode. The extra cavalry will allow you to make sure no one gets away at the end of the battle. Let them lurk behind the enemy line mopping up those routed by the heavies, while they get back into position to try again. They're also good for killing artillery, being fast and tireless. They're also available as mercenaries all over the place. As above, they're not interchangeable with Peltastai.
7: Only hold a city if you want to prolong the raid and make it a thorough cleansing of the Ptolemies' influence. Otherwise trash and move on.

What heavy cavalry are you going to go with? Illyrians aren't heavy, but perfectly suited for this sort of raid. The only point in Hippeis' favour is that they're available as mercenaries in Egypt. So you can replace the inevitable losses.

And finally,
8. Does bribing ever work on anything more than 2 unit armies?
9. Stupid Pontus people won't make peace with me even though they only have 1 province left, really?! Are there programmed hatreds?

8. I've never tried. Diplomacy generally is borked.
9. What campaign difficulty are you playing on? If H or VH virtually no diplomacy will work. Get the Force Diplomacy mod (savegame compatible) so you can make Pontos accept a ceasefire.

surely Hippeis are really not that usefull, as they don't do that much in a Charge, have no AP and no Javelins. BUT they do quite well at catching cavalry and fighting them. They are still overpriced and not at all great, but their not useless, especially not as KH, who lack Cav Generals.

Xystophoroi are however somewhat cheaper than Tessalians and just marginally weaker. They deliver a great Charge and are reasonable well armoured, sure they tire a bit to quick for EB tactics, but when you have ekdromoi or Hippeis to Keep the enemy occupied, it's doable. Generally KH has the Units to slow down the battle^^

Prodromoi are better at catching enemy cavalry and fighting them - and they're much better at delivering shock charges. Hell, even Illyrians are better at catching and killing other cavalry, due to their AP axes. Even the Eastern Hippeis are better, at least they have AP axes for melee against heavier opponents. There's a whole host of jobs cavalry can do, Hippeis aren't any good at any of them, they suffer from being excessive generalists.

Xystophoroi do deliver a great charge - once or twice. Then they're basically spectators since they're too blown to deliver another good charge. That's a very expensive way to get very little compared to a light cavalry unit who can charge again and again.

Yeah, that's fair. I was just listing Units trainable within the immediate Expansion area. Also, everybody knows Curepos are great :D

So while not top 10 their cav outranks that of the other "A Scotsman on a Horse?" factions by far(sweboz, Saba, early Romani), while not being too far behind factions like to Lusotani, late Romani Casse or Pontos*.

*unless you are good at using Chariots, then those are great and considerably better than KH ;)

Curepos are also available almost everywhere in Greece/the Balkans/Anatolia as mercs, which is another point in their favour. Those Celts sure get around.

Problem is that their immediate foes, Epeiros and Makedonia, have some of the best cavalry in the game. Same goes the Ptolemies and Seleukids, the former of which Savriss is having to deal with.

[V.T. Marvin]

Regarding fighting phalanxes - the best way is to pin them down from the front by some well armoured unit (hoplitai, thorakitai) and hurl a lot of javelins into their backs (peltastai, hippakontistai). The rate of casualties has a huge effect on morale - if one kills one man at a time, the unit will fight to the last one. Killing scores of them in a second (as it happens during heavy cavalry charges and massed volleys of javelins from close distance) routs the unit almost immediately. :cents:

AI gets its population replenished by the script, otherwise it would strip all its cities bare within a few turns.

Ekdromoi are quite good and versatile unit actually thanks to their speed and stamina. Do not expect them to hold out a prolonged melee with regular line infantry. Their role is to fend of skirmishers, fight cavalry, pursuit routers and flanking maneuvers.