Have I been missing out on Epeiros all this time?

[QuintusSertorius]

As people might be aware, I play Epeiros as a migrated faction all the time. Pergamon, The Bosporan Kingdom, Massalia, Kyrenaia and even Thraikia. It's loads of fun to play a Hellenistic faction somewhere other than intended, the first one especially is very viable with lots of obvious things to do even from the outset.

However, I have never played a single game as Epeiros. Their precarious starting position (at war with everyone!), a province stranded on the edge of Italy with little prospect of reinforcement, and an uninspiring starting roster didn't work for me. I don't care about elephants (waste of money as far as I'm concerned) or elite phalanxes (levy is just fine for holding the centre) and the Illyrian units (barring the cavalry) didn't impress. I can recruit the excellent Greek units virtually anywhere, in which case why pitch myself into the mad conflict for Greece proper?

Have I missed a trick by never even trying this out?

[OS Q]

I had a great game blitzing Italy and using my starting elephants until they were gone rather than disbanding them... I used them as super mobile siege weapons after some epic battles against Rome. I then used cost-effective armies of mostly levy phalanxes and Italian regionals (I recruited Hastati as skirmishers since their pilas are armor piercing, and then I'd use Samnites or axemen at their flanks) to conquer Carthage, Greece, and Asia Minor... but yeah come to think of it this was a migration campaign of sorts. Thorakitai are a personal favorite too and I know the Maks can't get them. I've always preferred mobile close combat infantry and lots of javelins over the phalanx and I wanted Italian and Celtic mercs to carry the day while the citizens just pin down the enemy. When you conquer all of Italy you stop feeling the debt as much too.

[moonburn]

you crazy man ? epeiros is one of my favourite factions to play i have all the initial steps memorised by now and all the initial tactics defined

in the 1st turn i take out pella and then thessally using the elephants as baterring rams get a foothold on the city let them tire themselfs against my combined levy and elite phallanx (medium but for a starting game it´s elite) then open a second hole on the wall and charge the enemy back with a combined fm illirian and elephant charge the illirian cavalary can catch most of the routers when they run back to the townsquare and then just mop whatevers left with elephant charges and massive cavalry tactics then run to thessally on the same turn and rinse and repeat

use the levy spearmen as garrison build a fort beteween thesally and athens (hell gates i believe) and head strait to dalmatia

meanwhile set a peace treaty with seulekids for a bundle of silver same for the koinon and maks

use a few units to head strait for taras and start building as soon as possible stone walls once it´s done you can fend off the romans until you can send a few more units there but reinforce it with your lamest family member and sally out alot take out their generals with a combined fm and taratine cavalry force use hoplois to hold the lines and charge the roman infantry

now this is a hard one but if you can get the stone walls you should be ok

dalmatia and pella are literally gold mines so segestica tylis nassus bization and all the other silver mines are just bonus

transfer population to your capital to have a steady recruitment center of strong troops (use the typical recruit akontistai and then disband options to reinforce the city recruitment pool)

navy is tricky its a flip of a coin but you should go for the maks navy and the koinon one before you set up peace but its a question of dumbluck since you´re on the clock to have all massive mines by 260bc in the balkans

then keep the warflame up beteween the koinon and the maks and remember to build the danube wall where you set psf in all of the danube crosses to have some time to build up against the ghetai

also 2 forts in the bosphorus should keep the seulekids and the pontians away for a while avoid being draged into mikra asia before you´re ready the mines might seem nice but it will cost you one of your 3 armies once your balkanic base is set

i kept my elephants long enough to conquer most of the balkans including the scordasci orca homeland (they are well worth the investment ) the boii infantry not so much ...

actually if the maks had thorokitai they would be perfect but since they don´t they are tied with the epirotes on my favourite campaigns choice since i don´t care that much for elephants either but i recognise their usefullness and know how to use them

if you time it properly the cash you get from destroying the roman barracks in taras and the mak ones in thessally and pella should keep you above the waterline until you can extort the seulekids koinon and makedonians and ofc proper tactics means you can save up your warriors so you can avoid recruitment in the initial turns

also ttack away with elephants the trufh is you only need 1 as a batering ram so after turn 1 they loose their usefullness since they cost alot of cash

as for the navy use 1 unit to replenish your navy and then keep it safe in your capital having 3 ships of 2-10 soldiers is better then having 3 and navies also cost fortunes thus the reason why i said engage the maks as soon as possible to reduce the amount of soldiers ithout sacrificing ships once you need it again (i normally build large fleets of trireme and naval blockade the crap of the italians and the 3 early ships are essencial in breaking the romans economical back ) just retrain your navy and go smack some roman invading fleet and take out a few roman fm´s in the process

i use similar tactics with the maks except i erase the koinon in 1 turn i take athens and sparta when i finish my turn

put 1 unit sieging athens and your princes army sieging it or king i can´t recall now the athenians will attack that single unit but then your entire field army enters the batle with their lathers and rams and you´re on top of the hill so a carnage ensues and if you play it smart you can even take the city faster by using your fm cavalry to cross the gates with the routing greeks

as for the spartans it will take skills but with 2 fms it´s doable with a good cavalry use

once the greeks where kicked out and left only with rhodes (lets hope they survive they´ll prove usefulll s thorn in the seuleids side and ofc buy you time before going for mikra asia in a 2 pronged attack from myletos and bizantium

if only maks had thorokitai

[QuintusSertorius]

Ironically, you've both identified what I think is the prime source of my unease: they're a faction set up for fast play. You have to go on the offensive right out the gate and try to blitz your way to stability. I like to play slow, ideally with little expansion at first as I build up my economy and take my time. I always start a game by disbanding everything beyond my bare minimum needed to garrison what I have. I like to use one or two armies, each led by an FM for major battles then a settled peace.

[Ludens]

then keep the warflame up beteween the koinon and the maks and remember to build the danube wall where you set psf in all of the danube crosses to have some time to build up against the ghetai

Forts (and I take it you mean ordinary forts, not PSF, which do not appear in R:TW) do help to contain the A.I., but I think this has more to do with poor A.I. pathfinding than with actual deterrence. Blocking every pass with forts seems like an exploit.

I like to play slow, ideally with little expansion at first as I build up my economy and take my time. I always start a game by disbanding everything beyond my bare minimum needed to garrison what I have. I like to use one or two armies, each led by an FM for major battles then a settled peace.

Then Epeiros simply isn't for you: the campaign forces you to fight on two fronts at least, right from the start. Even if you pacify Rome by giving them Taras, you will have to compete with both Macedon and the Getai for the Danubian mines. Without those mines, your economy is too weak to accomplish much (and surrendering Taras only increases that problem).

Knocking Macedon out quickly helps, but you are still likely to find yourself surrounded by untrustworthy and/or hostile factions.

[moonburn]

herm i enjoy a slowpaced game thats why fter those initial crazy turns after i set forts everywhere (they are also very usefull to move around troops fast since the distance can be covered by 10 units instead of just 1 if you got forts in all the right places while they slowdown your enemies advance for a pitifull 3.000 mnai for the entire fort garrison )

forts are also usefull besides those 2 uses as places to keep your army or armies i normally keep them in the secondary forts who can reach the front line forts in 1 turn while i keep my family general in the nearest city with good use you can keep your borders stable for decades

and yes forts not psf

segestica the scordascii orca and the other place with no mines i use client kings prticulary the other 2 places are great recruitment centers for the gallic troops who make up my flanks and sword bearing stone wall defenders

also make peace with the getai before you have a border with them (i might be confusing this with the maks campaign tough) but not too soon that they might take away your schytian and keltic recruitment centers (altough i doubt they can take the scordascii orca homeland so go for the city in the black sea 1st right after naissos since i saw the getai fail 20 times their attempted conquest before winning the scordascii orca hometown)

it´s basically an early sprint and then you get 20 to 30 years of peace to build up except for italy ofc but don´t blitz italy set up mercenary armies in northern italy to contain the roman expansion it´s easy to do once you get your mines up and running

and ofc if you wait long enough you get to sitback and watch the koinon and the maks go at each others throat time and time again in hellas proper and in mikra asia and in mikra asia it´s even more fun cause you get to see how they interact with the seulekids and the pontians

use the console to transport the spartan army back to the mainland preferably to attica that tends to keep the forces balanced out

ofc this is the reason why i prefer the makedonian campaign you kick the epirotes to italy and the kh to mikra asia and the cash boost from the aegean trade is wonderfull you get to have enough cash for 5 strong field armies and an extremly powerfull navy with your northern border well defended by your client kings you just sit and wait it out

[d'Arthez]

I don't think it is too much of a stretch to suggest that Pyrrhos would be a bit impulsive, and possibly try to take on more than he could handle. So a first turn siege of Pella is certainly not out of the question.

A slow playing option that could be reasonably viable is to withdraw all the forces from Italy to Greece, and let Taras rebel / be taken by the Romans. Take Pella with the superior forces at your disposal, and then disband the elephants. They'd be eating in your income too much (certainly if you do not opt to siege Demetrias on turn 1 as well, with your elephants as mobile battering rams. This can be done, but would certainly not be something you'd be thrilled about). Since then you'd only share a border with the Makedones, who have their fair share of conflicts as well, it should be possible to defend from that, especially if you can get them to throw themselves at Athenai. They should not be allowed to capture Athenai, because then your provinces are starting to look very, very attractive, even if KH manage to get Korinthos in return.

Obvious first targets are up the Illyrian coast, to develop the mines there, and rake in the dough. As you expand your financial base, you can slowly start meddling into the affairs of Southern Greece. Usually the Getai do not really start causing havoc soon. They'll need time to conquer their surroundings, and they may even go for something that is relatively remote, such as Ak-Ink, or Kallatis. That would certainly not directly interfere with your agenda.

Such an approach (relying on Ambrakia, Epidamnos and Pella) requires some serious diplomacy and defensive skills. Without Pella, the two Greek Epirote provinces are hardly viable to survive the diplomatic nightmare at the game start. Getting peace with the Romans in particular could significantly boost trade income. That would leave you only the KH and Makedonia to deal with. The tricky bit is to ensure that neither KH or Makedonia become dominant in Greece, until you are ready to strike.

Just my two cents.