ISIS on the offensive in Iraq

[Hooahguy]

Maybe less bombing would be more effective:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...cant-crush-it/

A political solution? Is it even possible?

The article definitely raises some points, though his use of David Swanson is laughable.

left sectarian division

No, it has always been there, Saddamn was just crushing it with an iron boot. No amount of US intervention (or lack thereof) can mend the Sunni-Shia divide.

And Swanson's solution to the IS problem is pathetically naive.

Yeah, because apologizing is really gonna make those IS guys just put down their arms and co-exist peacefully with everyone!

Send journalists, aid workers, peaceworkers, human shields, and negotiators into crisis zones, understanding that this means risking lives, but fewer lives than further militarization risks.

Because IS clearly values innocent lives. What an utter moron.

[Husar]

Meanwhile the german government has decided that a good "recycling" solution for old weapon stockpiles would be to just gift the old stuff to the Kurds.

As such the Kurdish fighters will receive G3 and G36 rifles, MG3 machineguns and some old Panzerfaust launchers and Milan ATGMs.
Additionally they will get the P1 pistols, 10k of which were already given to Afghani policemen. And of course a few million rounds of ammunition for the rifles and ammunition for the rocket/missile launchers.

Now you may say the G36 is a relatively new rifle, but some production models were found to melt if fired a bit too often as they were made using inferior plastic. "But the good old P1 pistol that serves the Afghani police will save them!" you say, well, maybe, but it was known to be horribly inaccurate and is by now completely phased out of army service.

The G3 rifles may actually be useful though, word is they were used by the army in Afghanistan again because of their superior firepower and longer range/accuracy (let's hope Vuk won't read this).
The Milan and Panzerfaust are probably good enough to crack the few tanks and armored cars that ISIS use.

I heard the USA/Iraqi army provided a lot of the gear ISIS uses right now for free, so what are other countries giving to increase the fun? Didn't the UK want to send some packages to the Kurds as well? Will they also send old cold war stuff for the vintage fun?

And what are the further implications? IF the Kurdish warriors win this for everyone else, will it help establish a free Kurdistan or will we then give more guns to the Iraqi army to beat down the Kurds?

[a completely inoffensive name]

And what are the further implications? IF the Kurdish warriors win this for everyone else, will it help establish a free Kurdistan or will we then give more guns to the Iraqi army to beat down the Kurds?

Seems like the aftermath could be spared a lot more bloodshed if the US backed a multi-state solution....

[rory_20_uk]

Meanwhile the german government has decided that a good "recycling" solution for old weapon stockpiles would be to just gift the old stuff to the Kurds.

As such the Kurdish fighters will receive G3 and G36 rifles, MG3 machineguns and some old Panzerfaust launchers and Milan ATGMs.
Additionally they will get the P1 pistols, 10k of which were already given to Afghani policemen. And of course a few million rounds of ammunition for the rifles and ammunition for the rocket/missile launchers.

Now you may say the G36 is a relatively new rifle, but some production models were found to melt if fired a bit too often as they were made using inferior plastic. "But the good old P1 pistol that serves the Afghani police will save them!" you say, well, maybe, but it was known to be horribly inaccurate and is by now completely phased out of army service.

The G3 rifles may actually be useful though, word is they were used by the army in Afghanistan again because of their superior firepower and longer range/accuracy (let's hope Vuk won't read this).
The Milan and Panzerfaust are probably good enough to crack the few tanks and armored cars that ISIS use.

I heard the USA/Iraqi army provided a lot of the gear ISIS uses right now for free, so what are other countries giving to increase the fun? Didn't the UK want to send some packages to the Kurds as well? Will they also send old cold war stuff for the vintage fun?

And what are the further implications? IF the Kurdish warriors win this for everyone else, will it help establish a free Kurdistan or will we then give more guns to the Iraqi army to beat down the Kurds?

I would imagine that right about now weapons that have problems is better than fighing with strong words.

And it does seem to be sensible to use older stockpiles to help one's puppets in killing one's enemies (including traitors who have left to fight for Her Majesty's enemies). Countries should give small tranches at a time to as far as possible ensure that weaponry is used rather than stockpiled (as if bad persons are struggling to get hold of guns...)

[Hooahguy]

Second US journalist murdered by IS.

[HopAlongBunny]

I thought that SA article was a little too sunny.
It seems it would require participants on all sides as dedicated to peace, as they are presently dedicated to killing each other.
Long time before we get to that stage :(

[Pannonian]

I would imagine that right about now weapons that have problems is better than fighing with strong words.

Do the French have any Chauchats left?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Do the French have any Chauchats left?

The wiki piece suggests that -- aside from museum collections etc. -- the French were VERY thorough in getting rid of that "piéce d' excrément."

[Pannonian]

The wiki piece suggests that -- aside from museum collections etc. -- the French were VERY thorough in getting rid of that "piéce d' excrément."

I'd imagine a Chauchat could come in handy. If you get in close enough, you could swing the Chauchat and club the enemy to death with a 20lb lump of metal. Also, if you have a rifle grenade attachment, you could toss a grenade up and use the Chauchat as a cricket bat to propel the grenade a fair distance. In fact, you wouldn't even need the rifle grenade attachment to use the Chauchat for that purpose, which just proves how inherently versatile it is.

[HoreTore]

Meanwhile the german government has decided that a good "recycling" solution for old weapon stockpiles would be to just gift the old stuff to the Kurds.

As such the Kurdish fighters will receive G3 and G36 rifles, MG3 machineguns and some old Panzerfaust launchers and Milan ATGMs.
Additionally they will get the P1 pistols, 10k of which were already given to Afghani policemen. And of course a few million rounds of ammunition for the rifles and ammunition for the rocket/missile launchers.

Now you may say the G36 is a relatively new rifle, but some production models were found to melt if fired a bit too often as they were made using inferior plastic. "But the good old P1 pistol that serves the Afghani police will save them!" you say, well, maybe, but it was known to be horribly inaccurate and is by now completely phased out of army service.

The G3 rifles may actually be useful though, word is they were used by the army in Afghanistan again because of their superior firepower and longer range/accuracy (let's hope Vuk won't read this).
The Milan and Panzerfaust are probably good enough to crack the few tanks and armored cars that ISIS use.

I heard the USA/Iraqi army provided a lot of the gear ISIS uses right now for free, so what are other countries giving to increase the fun? Didn't the UK want to send some packages to the Kurds as well? Will they also send old cold war stuff for the vintage fun?

And what are the further implications? IF the Kurdish warriors win this for everyone else, will it help establish a free Kurdistan or will we then give more guns to the Iraqi army to beat down the Kurds?

The AG3 is a hilarious weapon. In a positive way. Smaller calibres are for girls.

The reason it's been phased out in Europe is because it's not an assault rifle. It's designed to blam the russkies from afar(200m), not sneak around in buildings. As European wars are now more urban in nature, we needed a gun to enter houses with.

I'm sure the guns will suit the Kurds fighting ISIS. My impression of the conflict is that most of the fighting takes place on the outskirts of town, and then the winner strolls into town unopposed. The AG3 has long range with decent accuracy and rate of fire, and it's quite comfortable to walk around with. The magazines are horrible to carry around if you have more than 5(100 shots) though.

EDIT: Also, the *fomp* launcher is hilarious. Well worth the extra weight!

[Strike For The South]

Do we care simply because one of the malita groups has gelled into a semi Coherent force? This has been going on for a decade, bands of men kidnap, ransom, and behead Westerners. Why should I care now? Why are all my facebook friends suddenly clamoring for us to get re involved in Iraq?

Who gives a god damn? Seriously, Let them fuck little boys and stone women for wearing anklets. Have a couple of them teach at your universities and beg you to see their side of things, all the while making excuses for blatant oppression. I'm so over caring, give the whole thing back to the Turks and let the Israelis satisfy their barbarous blood lust.

Slap a brand name on these assholes and suddenly they are more dangerous. Fuck that and fuck the bullshit media suddenly giving a shit about peoples heads being lopped off and fuck the people who suddenly care because the Yazidi look white and have blue eyes.

If you'll go excuse me I have more to debt to accumulate in my right to work (lolololololol) state.

[Rhyfelwyr]

We didn't slap the brand name on them, however in saying that you bring up an important point... ISIS has only been able to do what it has done because it has given itself such a recognizable brand identity. There is no little irony in the fact that it is a thoroughly modern caliphate - very capitalistic and tech-savvy. On the former point, that is probably due to their origins in Al-Qaeda - I remember coming across an article where it was described how Bin Laden used his business experience in the West to run Al-Qaeda like a sort of corporation - everything right down to the group's grocery shopping had to be inventoried. As for their tech-savvyness, that is the real secret to their success. Their use of social media, viral videos and 'shock' tactics to make the headlines in Western media is what has fuelled their recruitment drive for Muslims all over the world - the coverage they get is so prolific and dramatic that it lends them a sort of credibility as a fighting force. It has also earned them a lot of cheap battlefield victories - their vicious image is what is thought to have caused the Iraqi army to flee before them.

ISIS should be nothing - they are a tiny fighting force, only around 15-20k men. But they are punching above their weight because they are using all the latest technology at their disposal to give off the image of a more substantial organisation. That's also why people in the West are talking about them, even though they are really just the latest in a long line of petty, sectarian terrorist groups.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Many of my colleagues were crying yesterday. The journalist chap who was killed was a graduate of our Journalism program.


I don't think the West, separately or collectively, is prepared to deal with the Middle East. I predict we shall, separately and collectively, "keep on keepin' on" with our existing mélange of policies, over-reactions, and outraged sensibilities. This will, of course, engender the same current level of success we enjoy in the region.


The Middle East has a rich history and the cultures raised in that region have long-standing rules for settling grievances. These are imprinted on their youth as a part of identity establishment and have the same degree of identity connection that social stoicism has for an upper class Brit or "alles in ordnung" has for the educated German. It is not simply a component of how they interact with others but of WHO they are. With that level of entrenched mind set, our options for real "change" are limited.

We can keep on what doing more or less what we are doing an thereby generate the same joyous results we have enjoyed to date.

We can withdraw from the region more or less entirely, trading for oil with whatever potentate currently controls it but accepting that we have no way to insure stability of production or delivery. All of the local forces who oppose Western (usually USA) efforts in the region would be the victors in this instance.

We can back a local proxy or three and let them fight by local rules while supporting them lavishly, funding their efforts, and ignoring their gross violations of human rights and freedoms. This would allow us to put boots on necks by proxy, though it would not change the "meta" of the area.

We can go in collectively using 90+% of our combined military capability under orthodox rules of engagement. This would be followed by a period of occupation during which new cultural values would be inculcated and local institutions allowed to mature to make that culture shift permanent. This would involve at least 20 years of occupation, the first decade of which would closely resemble the experience of US forces in Iraq after Gulf II.

We can go in collectively using 90+% of our combined military capability under local rules of engagement (active use of war crime tactics). This would be followed by a period of occupation of not less than 20 years to allow for the same changes noted in the previous option. Casualties during the initial decade would be substantially lower among occupying forces but much higher among the civilian population. The die-off would actually work to bring cultural change faster, though the likelihood of backlash may undercut the change effort.

I would like to see option two. I will see option one.

[HoreTore]

I don't think the West, separately or collectively, is prepared to deal with the Middle East.

Many more journalists have been whacked in Ukraine.

The brutality we see? Old news as well.

The Middle East isn't very special. It's just currently very hostile to the US.

[Strike For The South]

ISIS should be nothing - they are a tiny fighting force, only around 15-20k men. But they are punching above their weight because they are using all the latest technology at their disposal to give off the image of a more substantial organisation. That's also why people in the West are talking about them, even though they are really just the latest in a long line of petty, sectarian terrorist groups.

When did the latest technology become handheld cameras and bad photoshop?

We care because, for whatever reason, these stories are being latched onto. 2 vets under 30 a day commit suicide (BY THE GOVERNMENTS admission). They come home, get their hand shook by some gelatinous vietnam era draft dodger "thanking them for their service", and get a 10% discount at Luby's. Then they blow their brains out and everyone shakes their head and says "how sad". Then they turn on CNN and demand we send toops back. Pathetic.

Im over it. I wash my hands of it.

All we have to show for two wars is more debt and a bunch of dead young men. I wish I could tell you. Well, I wish I could say it was all part of some grander plan. At least that would satisfy my need for a bad guy. We are in there because people thought it looked good on a chess broad.

[Fragony]

When did the latest technology become handheld cameras and bad photoshop?

We care because, for whatever reason, these stories are being latched onto. 2 vets under 30 a day commit suicide (BY THE GOVERNMENTS admission). They come home, get their hand shook by some gelatinous vietnam era draft dodger "thanking them for their service", and get a 10% discount at Luby's. Then they blow their brains out and everyone shakes their head and says "how sad". Then they turn on CNN and demand we send toops back. Pathetic.

Im over it. I wash my hands of it.

All we have to show for two wars is more debt and a bunch of dead young men. I wish I could tell you. Well, I wish I could say it was all part of some grander plan. At least that would satisfy my need for a bad guy. We are in there because people thought it looked good on a chess broad.

Who is we, not me and you. You play football and live the dream judging from the looks of your really pretty girlfriend, and I am cashing in on my interests and won't have to work a day in my life. IS is so vile, it's too rediculous for me to understand from my comfortable bliss. It's so incredibly nasty what they are doing, they ought to be destroyed simply because they are so incrededibly cruel.

[rajpoot]

RIP to the two journalists.
I just read the news about the second one being murdered. I can't even begin to imagine what their families must be going through after seeing what was videotaped....It is terrible. Sickening. No innocent man deserves to go that way. And I cannot even begin to imagine what they must put their captives through to have them say stuff like that.
I'm certain there are hundreds of thousands of people all over the world who are glad that the USA is fighting against terror. I'm sure people are grateful. But like it's been mentioned the cost has been terrible. No one country should bear the brunt of the suffering.
Either way the only thing I can think of at the moment is how these literally need to be bombed back to the stone age and then some more for a good measure.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I am of two minds here. On one hand, I feel exactly like you just described. On the other, ISIS is just the worst kind of evil, and I (and many other vets) feel very invested in that part of the world these days. I'm literally torn right down the middle between thinking we should stay out of it, and showing up at the recruiter's office to beg for a chance to go back there and end that horrible group of extremists. Its heart-wrenching for all vets, and even worse for those still in the Army who have served in the war on terror.

I'm willing to let you and your mates go back if that is what we decide. I do have a couple of requirements though:

1. Congress has to Declare War formally and commit the country completely. Treat it as a "true" war upon which we feel our survival and fortune depends.

2. You and your mates get to write the rules of engagement.

[Pannonian]

When did the latest technology become handheld cameras and bad photoshop?

We care because, for whatever reason, these stories are being latched onto. 2 vets under 30 a day commit suicide (BY THE GOVERNMENTS admission). They come home, get their hand shook by some gelatinous vietnam era draft dodger "thanking them for their service", and get a 10% discount at Luby's. Then they blow their brains out and everyone shakes their head and says "how sad". Then they turn on CNN and demand we send toops back. Pathetic.

Im over it. I wash my hands of it.

All we have to show for two wars is more debt and a bunch of dead young men. I wish I could tell you. Well, I wish I could say it was all part of some grander plan. At least that would satisfy my need for a bad guy. We are in there because people thought it looked good on a chess broad.

You might be interested in this.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Oh for goodness' sake. Why do we keep talking about the Islamic world as if it is in some sort of permanent state of apocalyptic war, as if every guy on the street is strapped with C4 and runs around shouting "derka derka jihad a jihad!"?

Across most of the Islamic world right now, most people are living peaceful lives and are concerned only with getting their breakfast and getting to work on time.

Are we forgetting what Europe looked like within our grandparents' lifetimes? The massive wars that were waged continually for hundreds of years? The bloody revolutions? The ethnic cleansing? The suppressed revolts?

The Islamic world is just working through some things the same way we did in Europe. I've said before I think what is going on there is a sort of mixture of a Reformation/Counter-Reformation on the one hand, and 20th-Century style ideological wars on the other. It has went from being a land of goat herders to having a fairly substantial and well-educated middle-class - they are flirting with nationalism, ideology and populist religion in the exact same way the people of Europe did when they first became exposed to them. They will also move on from these things eventually, just like we did in Europe.

When did the latest technology become handheld cameras and bad photoshop?

We care because, for whatever reason, these stories are being latched onto. 2 vets under 30 a day commit suicide (BY THE GOVERNMENTS admission). They come home, get their hand shook by some gelatinous vietnam era draft dodger "thanking them for their service", and get a 10% discount at Luby's. Then they blow their brains out and everyone shakes their head and says "how sad". Then they turn on CNN and demand we send toops back. Pathetic.

Im over it. I wash my hands of it.

All we have to show for two wars is more debt and a bunch of dead young men. I wish I could tell you. Well, I wish I could say it was all part of some grander plan. At least that would satisfy my need for a bad guy. We are in there because people thought it looked good on a chess broad.

I didn't say anything about whether or not we should be sending troops back again.

But on the technology point, I would say that the way that ISIS uses social media and the like to deliberately manipulate Western media and create a certain image for itself is unprecedented amongst similar groups. I suspect that the decision to have a man with a strong British accent carry out the recent beheadings was another of their propaganda ploys - they will have known that having a Briton do it would make it stand out above a regular Iraqi/Syrian Arab. Everything they do is about grabbing the headlines. That's why people are talking about them.

[Kralizec]

And Swanson's solution to the IS problem is pathetically naive.

I would have said criminally naive. Even the site's name makes me want to smack my head.

There's so much wrong with that article...I don't know where to start, or when I would end.

[Fragony]

What teh que? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...b-9705120.html

Have they lost their mind?