ISIS on the offensive in Iraq

[Kagemusha]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0L814H20150204

Hopefully now the Muslim states of Middle East understand that it is primarily their job to get rid of the scum called IS and those supporting IS will understand what they are supporting and stop such idiotic behaviour.

[Kralizec]

I read a theory yesterday (I forgot where) that the footage might be several weeks old. It seems plausible, because IS and Jordan were bargaining to release him in exchange for that female terrorist on death row in Jordan. IS seemed to place a great deal of value on her, yet when Jordan demanded that they'd get evidence that the pilot was alive before agreeing to anything, they flat out refused.

[Husar]

I watched the video of the burning earlier today. Can't recommend it unless you have a thick skin.
It was obviously made by a bunch of sadistic former Call of Duty players who seem to take some kind of pleasure or pride (or both) in the act.

That they think of themselves as somehow being the righteous few has to be a joke considering that their deeds are something you would expect from a satanic or death cult. Yes, death cult. The burning looked like a rite or the deed of a cult that celebrates the death of a defenseless man in a most cruel manner.

It wasn't just a punishment, it was a message that said: "We can into video editing, but we're really just stupid, sadistic barbarians."

[Fragony]

Not going to watch it but the joke is on them, shock-fatigue is kicking in, acts like this don't work. They will have to sink even lower to surprise anyone.

[I of the Storm]

I'm particularly fond of the rumours spread by some arab media that Abdullah II. is going to participate personally in the retaliatory air strikes conducted by the Jordani Air Force. Has a certain "I'm the bloody king and you just crossed that line" ring to it.

Apart from that, while Jordanias outrage and a strong military reaction is understandable (and has my full sympathy), I'm afraid it's just what they wanted. A pro-west government bombing IS targets - might bring IS supporters in Jordania to the point of taking action.

Weren't the UN invented after WW2 in order to prevent territorial aggression and crimes against humanity?

[Husar]

Apart from that, while Jordanias outrage and a strong military reaction is understandable (and has my full sympathy), I'm afraid it's just what they wanted. A pro-west government bombing IS targets - might bring IS supporters in Jordania to the point of taking action.

You say that as though Jordania wasn't bombing IS targets before the IS burned a Jordanian pilot who was caught trying to bomb IS targets.

The video I watched also showed IS fighters who got killed or wounded by the bombings. I don't understand arabic but I suppose that was meant to get sympathy for their "righteous" cause and not meant to invite more bombings. The burning of the pilot was probably an attempt to scare people who oppose the IS.

The UAE already suspended air strikes for fear that their pilots might get caught when the IS captured the Jordanian pilot. They want the US to station SAR Ospreys closer to northern Iraq to get potentially downed pilots out faster before they resume their bombings.

[Crandar]

There's a rumour that the Jordanian pilot was already dead and ISIS just burnt its body. The reason behind this is that they (the exported wahhabis) unsuccessfully tried to negotiate with the Jordanian government for a PoW exchange: The pilot (they pretended he was alive) with a female martyr wannabe.

When the Jordanian government insisted on being provided with a piece of evidence that the pilot is still alive, they staged that fake execution, for PR purposes.

I don't find that theory very plausible, but I haven't watched the video, yet.

[I of the Storm]

I haven't watched the video either, but from what I've read, he was very much alive in that cage.

Husar, I know they were already participating, but rather reluctantly (as were most of the local members of that anti-IS-coalition). Partially because of their own population being rather reluctant. Especially public opinion has changed a bit now, so I expect an increased participation of Jordanian Forces and subsequently an increase in the "production of martyrs" while the military gain might be rather marginal. So they are basically playing into IS hands, I think.

[Husar]

That theory is not very plausible and can only come from people who either didn't watch the video or think that ISIL is led by the same NWO-lizardpeople who already faked the videos of the moon landing. I'll refrain from describing the video for those with a good imagination.

As for the Jordanian participation, it was small and will stay small compared to e.g. the US, my point was that it was an attempt to scare all their enemies away in general, not just Jordania. Whether it's possible to play into the hands of the IS I'm not sure, I'd say no, it's not. By now it should be clear that only martyrs, sadists and stupid people join their cause while everybody who is sane supports or at least tolerates bombing them anyway. I just found this opinion peace where the guy says the solution is basically more bombing because they're obviously scared of it.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...085308300.html

Similarly, the air campaign will have had a psychological impact across all ISIL's rank and file. The constant attrition reveals how perilously exposed they are outside urban areas, and the flow of texts to families in Europe announcing the martyrdom of their relatives recently killed will have helped slow the flow of recruits.
[...]
Kassasbeh was involved in that fight. While there are no positives to be drawn from the manner of his death, its brutality highlights the impact of his mission and hence a way out of this morass: more air strikes.

[a completely inoffensive name]

It is 2015 and someone still thinks that if you just keep bombing, the Islamic extremism will stop.

[Fragony]

It is 2015 and someone still thinks that if you just keep bombing, the Islamic extremism will stop.

Got better ideas? It is what it is.

[rvg]

Come to think of it, it would be best not to eliminate ISIS completely. Rout them, contain them, and let them exist on a smaller scale. They are a magnet that attracts scumbags from all over the civilized world. That leaves us free to bomb those aforementioned scumbags into smithereens, something that we can't do back in their home countries. Tighter controls are of course needed to deal with those who decide to come back, but overall, having ISIS control some area in Syria or Iraq would work out to our overall security advantage.

[Fragony]

Agreed. Keep bombing them to keep them insignificant and a jihadi-magnet. It's just convenient, use it.

[Sir Moody]

Got better ideas? It is what it is.

you cant beat an idea with bombs - in order to end Islamist ideas you have to combat the philosophy - we have failed massively so far, alienating the Muslims we should be working with and playing right into the Islamist hands by constantly giving them such a high profile.

Bombs may end IS but another group will sprout elsewhere and the whole thing will start again.

[Fragony]

you cant beat an idea with bombs - in order to end Islamist ideas you have to combat the philosophy - we have failed massively so far, alienating the Muslims we should be working with and playing right into the Islamist hands by constantly giving them such a high profile.

Bombs may end IS but another group will sprout elsewhere and the whole thing will start again.

Not that you arsn't right, but how would you do that? The gap is too big. I understand perfectly well that muslims aren't all that happy with these guys, don't get me wrong. But they are powerless against them as long as we keep relativating islamists. Normal muslims are terrified of these guys and with good reason. They have a good reason to be afraid of them, but also of us because some just refuse to make a difference between normal muslims and islamists. Though spot if you only care about what's for dinner. In any case, keep bombing these islamist idiots.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

We do not need THIS caliphate. However, the world might be better served if there WERE a caliphate.

It would have to come about as a result of some well-attended 'Meccan Council' or some such. As it stands, Islam is too balkanized to reform and progress in how it manifests its philosophy. It took a reformation and a few centuries for Mother Church, but with some form of central authority, long term reform is possible.

Until Muslims marginalize these Wahabo-fascists, in such a manner that they are a demonstrable "out group" and not an attractive clique, these problems will continue.

Won't happen in my lifetime. If it did, it probably would get derailed by extremism anyway. Sad.

[Ironside]

There's a rumour that the Jordanian pilot was already dead and ISIS just burnt its body. The reason behind this is that they (the exported wahhabis) unsuccessfully tried to negotiate with the Jordanian government for a PoW exchange: The pilot (they pretended he was alive) with a female martyr wannabe.

When the Jordanian government insisted on being provided with a piece of evidence that the pilot is still alive, they staged that fake execution, for PR purposes.

I don't find that theory very plausible, but I haven't watched the video, yet.

That's a garble of the original rumour. That is that they already burnt the pilot before starting to negotiate for a PoW release. Based on the official information, it's plausable, but since the unofficial information is what counts... It's hard to telll.

I'm not planning to see that video, but are there any time indicators in the video? Because if they talk in generic "this is what happens to those who oppose us" rather than a more specific mention of a failed PoW exchange, it's fairly plausable.

[Brenus]

"However, the world might be better served if there WERE a caliphate." What? A bigger Iran, Saudi-Arabia? No.
The problem is until the Muslim masses are told/understand that the Quran is only a guide line and not the words of God itself, nothing can be done. If the Holly Book being the words of God is telling you to kill the gays as they are abomination, well, as a follower you have to kill gays. It is not even an option to say no. That is God's will.
What the Muslim Religion needs is in fact less believers, as we had in Europe/USA. More atheists, more theists, more "let live" persons. Who really care what the Pope say? Even Ireland which was the last bastion of Catholicism starts to prosecute the pedophile priests.
Generally speaking, "Christian" back-grounds populations do as they please, and good if the religions agreed with it.

You want a Religion to become softer and more human? Criticism, reason and freedom will do the job.

[Pannonian]

"However, the world might be better served if there WERE a caliphate." What? A bigger Iran, Saudi-Arabia? No.
The problem is until the Muslim masses are told/understand that the Quran is only a guide line and not the words of God itself, nothing can be done. If the Holly Book being the words of God is telling you to kill the gays as they are abomination, well, as a follower you have to kill gays. It is not even an option to say no. That is God's will.
What the Muslim Religion needs is in fact less believers, as we had in Europe/USA. More atheists, more theists, more "let live" persons. Who really care what the Pope say? Even Ireland which was the last bastion of Catholicism starts to prosecute the pedophile priests.
Generally speaking, "Christian" back-grounds populations do as they please, and good if the religions agreed with it.

You want a Religion to become softer and more human? Criticism, reason and freedom will do the job.

I don't see why it should be up to us to do their auto criticism and auto reform for them though. I don't really care what kind of crappy regime they set up in their own homes. I just want these nutters as far away from me as possible.

[Kagemusha]

I dont think what anyone needs is a Caliphate in a sense of theocracy, but it could be that only way to stabilize Middle East could be by creating a large state for Sunni arabs involving number of current states of the area. Now how to accomplish this and how to secure it would be even somewhat secular. I havent got a clue how to achieve that...

[Beskar]

Abit too late to start reconstructing the Ottoman Empire.

[Brenus]

"I just want these nutters as far away from me as possible." And how a Caliphate would achieve this?

[Pannonian]

"I just want these nutters as far away from me as possible." And how a Caliphate would achieve this?

It would give them a state to go to, allowing us to remove their British or whatever citizenship. If they want to go to their utopia, they're welcome to, and as soon as possible.

[Fragony]

It would give them a state to go to, allowing us to remove their British or whatever citizenship. If they want to go to their utopia, they're welcome to, and as soon as possible.

Not untill you recognise the IS as a state, and IS is a state you are officially at war with. Just liquidate threats ffs.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Abit too late to start reconstructing the Ottoman Empire.

Not at all what I was intimating. I am talking about an extra-national caliphate whose power is focused upon the Muslim faith. Without some accepted central "figure" in the religion, Islam will always be splintered by reform efforts and never altered as a whole.

Neither the Saudi Monarchy nor the Iranian quasi-theocracy can maintain power and influence without an appeal to physical force. THAT is what is lacking.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I do not think any sort of central Islamic religious figure/council will do anything to help. This is because religious conflict is usually a political conflict or a resource conflict, where religion is simply a convenient and easy to market cover for more abstract or nefarious reasons.

[Fragony]

What do you think that

[Fragony]

Time for some lighthearted fun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG6hGiAwlxg IS-fail compilation.

I love the one where a hostage-taker has to hold a baby, and the jihadis who can't stop laughing while shooting the video

Warning, in some parts people could have died. Not that you see it but it's possible.

[I of the Storm]

Quite a lot of people dying in that video, but the intention is appreciated.

Edit: Some look like really hot candidates for the Darwin Awards, though.

[a completely inoffensive name]

What do you think that

Because when all parties live under a secular democracy that does not hand out political power based on religion, suddenly the Protestants and Catholics are no longer slaughtering each other.