ISIS on the offensive in Iraq

[Brenus]

“If you have no clue what's in the quran, maybe that would be hard, but why do other muslims who actually read the book tell us about all the parts of the Quran that the IS violates?” Well, none, if I follow what French Muslims Scholars are writing in magazines and newspapers, and they point out that it is where the problem is, and that what they want to change. Killing Jews and Gays is not only allowed but recommended in the Quran, as having slaves and killing agnostics, atheist and polytheist. Yes, some say that Jihad is the conquest of your inner self, but it is as well to wage war on others lands as mentioned in the Land of Islam (land with no war, abusively translated as the Land of Peace) and the Land of War. Islam divides the human race in the one of the top being the Muslims, the ones who can live as slaves (dhimmi) being from the religion of the book, and the others you can kill. No, sorry, the ones it is your duty to kill.

“The ones who keep saying all their actions are by the book are the IS guys themselves, do you always take the propaganda of your enemy at face value?” I think I answer this remark.

“But that goes both ways, how can you demand respect from muslims when your magazines call them idiots every day?” Here, YOU are “taking the propaganda of your enemy at face value”. Charlie Hebdo never called Muslim idiots. CH attacked the Religion, the System, as idiotic, as they did and do for all Religions. That is why the ones excusing the massacre try to mix Racism with anti-religious articles. Islam is not a Race, but a Religion, so not immune to be called Idiotic. Racism is an offense in France, not an opinion. Each time Religions try to go to the Curt against CH on these grounds they lost the case.
As the rest of your intervention, nothing to had, I fully agree on your remark.

“If you want to do away with freedom of religion and force everyone to live the atheist life, just say so.” Atheist is not a religion, so no rules to follow, no Doctor of the Faith or equivalent and no one try to enforce atheism. What atheists want is the Religions stop to try to impose their views, moral and clothing on others. Religions are opinions. Some have the opinion that Mary is a virgin, some don’t. And because their opinions are de facto blaspheming for others religions, atheists came with the idea of laicism. Keep your religion private, believe what you want in the respect of the common law voted by elected Parliaments, and please stop the strop.

[Husar]

Your attempt of angering me is endearing <3

If you want to believe that...

Short answer, you shouldn't, if he tries to tell you how to live your life.

If he tries to tell you how to pointlessly slide down a hill you might want to consider his advice though...

How many muslims are trying to tell you how to live your life?

Why you should respect anyone but yourself? Because it's the nice things to do, and you would want people to treat you the same way.

However, to respect someones IDEAS is far far far far faaaaaaar away from respecting them as person.

You seem to hold a very weak argument here, mate.

Really? I asked a muslim, who doesn't want to kill me by the way, why some Mohammed cartoons insult him. And he said it's because they insult something that is very dear to him, something that is sacred to him. If you say his religion is stupid, you also say that he is stupid for following it.
And I know that Christians have very similar opinions because I happen to have been in several churches in my life.

“If you have no clue what's in the quran, maybe that would be hard, but why do other muslims who actually read the book tell us about all the parts of the Quran that the IS violates?” Well, none, if I follow what French Muslims Scholars are writing in magazines and newspapers, and they point out that it is where the problem is, and that what they want to change. Killing Jews and Gays is not only allowed but recommended in the Quran, as having slaves and killing agnostics, atheist and polytheist. Yes, some say that Jihad is the conquest of your inner self, but it is as well to wage war on others lands as mentioned in the Land of Islam (land with no war, abusively translated as the Land of Peace) and the Land of War. Islam divides the human race in the one of the top being the Muslims, the ones who can live as slaves (dhimmi) being from the religion of the book, and the others you can kill. No, sorry, the ones it is your duty to kill.

So Fragony was right all along?
Good to know.

“But that goes both ways, how can you demand respect from muslims when your magazines call them idiots every day?” Here, YOU are “taking the propaganda of your enemy at face value”. Charlie Hebdo never called Muslim idiots. CH attacked the Religion, the System, as idiotic, as they did and do for all Religions. That is why the ones excusing the massacre try to mix Racism with anti-religious articles. Islam is not a Race, but a Religion, so not immune to be called Idiotic. Racism is an offense in France, not an opinion. Each time Religions try to go to the Curt against CH on these grounds they lost the case.

Again, when you say a religion is so stupid that only idiots would take it seriously, what do you expect the people who take it seriously to think?

“If you want to do away with freedom of religion and force everyone to live the atheist life, just say so.” Atheist is not a religion, so no rules to follow, no Doctor of the Faith or equivalent and no one try to enforce atheism. What atheists want is the Religions stop to try to impose their views, moral and clothing on others. Religions are opinions. Some have the opinion that Mary is a virgin, some don’t. And because their opinions are de facto blaspheming for others religions, atheists came with the idea of laicism. Keep your religion private, believe what you want in the respect of the common law voted by elected Parliaments, and please stop the strop.

Yes, the vast majority of believers of all kind do this, the others are prosecuted as criminals, where exactly is the problem apart from the fact that some religious people can also be criminals?

[Kadagar_AV]

If you want to believe that...

That you are endearing? Everyday of the week mate <3

How many muslims are trying to tell you how to live your life?

Well, there was this muslim bomber who blew himself up where I lived back in 2010...

Admittedly I have only mentioned one, but that was plenty enough for me, thankyouverymuch...

Oh, and my grudge against Islam isn't because of him, but because of how the action was met by other muslims... Or to go on, how all the repulsive things going on within Islam gets a silent "ok" from the muslims around where I live.

If muslims want to show they hate things like this... They should do more about it.

The Jihad clique in the sururbs where I lived before are "the cool guys", Jihadism is actually alluring, and we have countless of "Swedes" (read Arab immigrants) fighting for ISIS...

Until the general muslim community see these terrorists as an absolute pariah, I have no sympathy for them. And at least here in Sweden, the muslim community does not. Heck, our biggest muslim organization even invites Jihadi speakers...

So, well, **** them.

Really? I asked a muslim, who doesn't want to kill me by the way, why some Mohammed cartoons insult him. And he said it's because they insult something that is very dear to him, something that is sacred to him. If you say his religion is stupid, you also say that he is stupid for following it.
And I know that Christians have very similar opinions because I happen to have been in several churches in my life.

Sure, christians have done, and do, a lot of ****. They are also religious, and thus held by belief not fact.

However, in Christianitys defense... Islam is now where Christianity was somewhere before the enlightenment... Christianity has improved a LOT since... Islam on the other hand? Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

[Brenus]

“where exactly is the problem apart from the fact that some religious people can also be criminals?” In the fact the Religion is telling them they can, may be? And that is in fact recommended?

“So Fragony was right all along? Good to know.” You avoid answering: So what in IS’ actions, is against Islam? And I don’t speak of Muslims; I speak of Islam as an Ideology. Because, com’on, if any political organisations would have followers killing left, right and center in its name, giving references from the political platform telling to do so, having a totalitarian ideology, how long it would take to ban it? Are Religions immune to common laws and social basic laws?

“And he said it's because they insult something that is very dear to him, something that is sacred to him.” Well, tough. The idea that there are people believing there is a god is insult to intelligence for me, and I don’t start to shoot at followers of religion(s). That is what we call tolerance.

“If you say his religion is stupid, you also say that he is stupid for following it.” Brainwashed, delusional, or just in need of a big daddy: Depends on how aggressive the guy or woman is. And again, what is the problem? Your German Muslim didn’t even know of a French Satirical Magazine, but he/she is still hurt in his/her feelings because someone told him/her that it was insult: His/her choice. So, leave with it.

“How many muslims are trying to tell you how to live your life?” The ones willing to kill for it: At least 3 in Paris last month, 1 in Denmark, several thousands (hundreds of thousands?) in Iraq apparently.
Plus the ones demanding respect for their “hurt feeling” when someone's opinion is their belief system is medieval, racist and fascist, against modern idea of human rights. That hurts their feelings, well, change the bits of Islam that just do that. Might not leave much of the book mind you. Don't worry I think the same for the Bible and others "holly" texts.
Muslims just have to do like their brothers (not sisters, as religions don’t have a great deal of admiration for females) in monotheistic religions: don’t tell the bad parts, push them under the carpet, and forget them. With time, we forget Christianity and Judaism are pro-slavery, against gender equality and sciences, and were aggressively lands grabbers. Then job done, you can pretend that Religions are for peace and understanding.

[Husar]

Well, there was this muslim bomber who blew himself up where I lived back in 2010...

Admittedly I have only mentioned one, but that was plenty enough for me, thankyouverymuch...

Yes, the proper response to someone demanding that you change your way of life is to throw your previous morals away and ask people who had nothing to do with it but are loosely associated with the other guy to change their lives...
That way you, eh, win and show your moral superiority...

Oh, and my grudge against Islam isn't because of him, but because of how the action was met by other muslims... Or to go on, how all the repulsive things going on within Islam gets a silent "ok" from the muslims around where I live.

If muslims want to show they hate things like this... They should do more about it.

The Jihad clique in the sururbs where I lived before are "the cool guys", Jihadism is actually alluring, and we have countless of "Swedes" (read Arab immigrants) fighting for ISIS...

Until the general muslim community see these terrorists as an absolute pariah, I have no sympathy for them.

So I assume that you voted for a party that is loosely associated with Breivik's ideology, that's even more than a silent "ok" from you for murdering children...
I also didn't see you protesting against white supremacists in the streets, so since you're white that has to be a silent "ok" from you.

However, in Christianitys defense... Islam is now where Christianity was somewhere before the enlightenment... Christianity has improved a LOT since... Islam on the other hand? Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

I wouldn't say christianity has improved, most of it has just become semi-atheism and the rest returned to the roots.

“where exactly is the problem apart from the fact that some religious people can also be criminals?” In the fact the Religion is telling them they can, may be? And that is in fact recommended?

“So Fragony was right all along? Good to know.” You avoid answering: So what in IS’ actions, is against Islam? And I don’t speak of Muslims; I speak of Islam as an Ideology. Because, com’on, if any political organisations would have followers killing left, right and center in its name, giving references from the political platform telling to do so, having a totalitarian ideology, how long it would take to ban it? Are Religions immune to common laws and social basic laws?

I already said I didn't read the quran, it's just that people who did read it and live according to it say their actions are against the quran. Where is the improvement in alienating these people further by banning their religion?

“And he said it's because they insult something that is very dear to him, something that is sacred to him.” Well, tough. The idea that there are people believing there is a god is insult to intelligence for me, and I don’t start to shoot at followers of religion(s). That is what we call tolerance.

“If you say his religion is stupid, you also say that he is stupid for following it.” Brainwashed, delusional, or just in need of a big daddy: Depends on how aggressive the guy or woman is. And again, what is the problem? Your German Muslim didn’t even know of a French Satirical Magazine, but he/she is still hurt in his/her feelings because someone told him/her that it was insult: His/her choice. So, leave with it.

He does tolerate it, the point was that it's an insult by proxy, I never said he can't live with it, don't make things up.
You obviously have a problem with religious people, too, so you're just a version of him on the other side of the fence.

“How many muslims are trying to tell you how to live your life?” The ones willing to kill for it: At least 3 in Paris last month, 1 in Denmark, several thousands (hundreds of thousands?) in Iraq apparently.
Plus the ones demanding respect for their “hurt feeling” when someone's opinion is their belief system is medieval, racist and fascist, against modern idea of human rights. That hurts their feelings, well, change the bits of Islam that just do that. Might not leave much of the book mind you. Don't worry I think the same for the Bible and others "holly" texts.
Muslims just have to do like their brothers (not sisters, as religions don’t have a great deal of admiration for females) in monotheistic religions: don’t tell the bad parts, push them under the carpet, and forget them. With time, we forget Christianity and Judaism are pro-slavery, against gender equality and sciences, and were aggressively lands grabbers. Then job done, you can pretend that Religions are for peace and understanding.

Well, given how you talk about and belittle other people who disagree with you, I'm not sure I want to share your modern idea of human rights. And you don't seem to understand the point of a religion at all: http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/4-2.htm

[Kadagar_AV]

I wouldn't say christianity has improved, most of it has just become semi-atheism and the rest returned to the roots.

Uuuuh... Did you just take what I wrote, and decided to personally edit it, or what?

You just know that a quote falls short when it starts with "However".


Christianity at large is still evil and rotten, sure.

However, compared to Islam... Nah, I wont go into that. It feels insulting comparing Islam to modern Christianity.

Please note the word "modern".

Heck, the pope even went out PUBLIC to say that the earth, might in fact, turn around the sun...

Geez, WOW, if that isn't religious progression I dont know what is!!!


The joke turns bitter when you indulge the thought that Islam hasn't even reached this very basic level of normal modern, well, intelligence.

[Brenus]

“You obviously have a problem with religious people, too, so you're just a version of him on the other side of the fence.” my step-daughter is heavily involved in a new-born Christian movement, so your assertion is completely out of reality. My opposition to religion is intellectual. It is still religious people who killed atheist on Paris, and tried in Denmark

“it's just that people who did read it and live according to it say their actions are against the quran.” Well, they are lying, or they didn’t read the Quran (2nd hypothesis most realistic). Doctors of Muslim Faith didn’t issued any fatwa against IS because all actions of IS are not against Quran’s writing. Killing gay (and you can find the quote in your favourite research engine) is commanded as killing Jews, agnostics, atheists and other sub-Muslims. The Quran tells you when you can beat you wife and when to stop. I invent nothing, all can be checked. So, can you ask “people who did read it and live according to it” what is against Quran in IS’ actions? And I don’t want a sentence that can be interpreted as against the killing, as all religions contradict themselves. No. I want form them a clear message from the Quran showing that it does not teach that killing Jews and others. Well, they won’t be able to do so, because it does.
They pick and choose and it is good they do so. But they can't claim that IS is doing against Quran's writtings.

“He does tolerate it, the point was that it's an insult by proxy” Good for him, and it is not an insult, the fact is there is no god, no holly texts, all these are men made. If reality is insulting, well, nothing I can do. And rainbows are just the colours of light even if some wish they are not.

“And you don't seem to understand the point of a religion at all” oh, I do. Oppression, murders, racism, crusades and Jihads, useless debates about non-existent deities and I can carry on.

“I'm not sure I want to share your modern idea of human rights” I sure of this as yours seem a little bit from Bronze Ages tribes orientated, slavery, inequality, etc… By the way, having as reference a book agreeing with slavery, genocide and aggression is not a good move. Well, for me at least.

[Fragony]

Now they are also pissing of Egypt..

[Husar]

Uuuuh... Did you just take what I wrote, and decided to personally edit it, or what?

You just know that a quote falls short when it starts with "However".

No, the rest just wasn't relevant to my reply, I didn't even criticize you in my reply, just offered my view on the improvement part.

Christianity at large is still evil and rotten, sure.

However, compared to Islam... Nah, I wont go into that. It feels insulting comparing Islam to modern Christianity.

Please note the word "modern".

Heck, the pope even went out PUBLIC to say that the earth, might in fact, turn around the sun...

Geez, WOW, if that isn't religious progression I dont know what is!!!

The joke turns bitter when you indulge the thought that Islam hasn't even reached this very basic level of normal modern, well, intelligence.

See, I want to give you honest replies and then I see hints of your crazy IQ theories again and I just despair. Sometimes I just quote the parts I want to give honest replies to but then you complain that I use your stuff out of context. So here you have a quote with full context and my reply that I just don't feel like going over this stupid argument of yours again.

“You obviously have a problem with religious people, too, so you're just a version of him on the other side of the fence.” my step-daughter is heavily involved in a new-born Christian movement, so your assertion is completely out of reality. My opposition to religion is intellectual. It is still religious people who killed atheist on Paris, and tried in Denmark

Okay, point taken, I just haven't read a whole lot of intellectual articles yet where the people they disagree with are described with words like brainwashed and delusional, but maybe that's because I don't study a social science. ~

“it's just that people who did read it and live according to it say their actions are against the quran.” Well, they are lying, or they didn’t read the Quran (2nd hypothesis most realistic). Doctors of Muslim Faith didn’t issued any fatwa against IS because all actions of IS are not against Quran’s writing. Killing gay (and you can find the quote in your favourite research engine) is commanded as killing Jews, agnostics, atheists and other sub-Muslims. The Quran tells you when you can beat you wife and when to stop. I invent nothing, all can be checked. So, can you ask “people who did read it and live according to it” what is against Quran in IS’ actions? And I don’t want a sentence that can be interpreted as against the killing, as all religions contradict themselves. No. I want form them a clear message from the Quran showing that it does not teach that killing Jews and others. Well, they won’t be able to do so, because it does.
They pick and choose and it is good they do so. But they can't claim that IS is doing against Quran's writtings.

Even if that is so, what are we going to achieve by banning islam? At this point I always wonder what we argue about because even if we ban the entire religion because we think that the correct interpretation is evil, by doing so we will just:
a) alienate those with the "wrong" interpretation who are/were perfectly harmless but are now turned into criminals who also hate us.
b) we basically tell the friendly ones that they do not follow their religion correctly if they do not try to kill us and btw., we also hate them now and make their core beliefs illegal, that can't possibly end badly.

As for fatwas, a quick search seems to turn up a few:
http://www.dw.de/support-for-the-bri...-is/a-17898912
http://www.icna.org/u-s-muslim-relig...nst-terrorism/
http://www.npr.org/2014/09/25/351277...-isis-violence
http://news.sky.com/story/1327540/mu...nst-is-britons

“He does tolerate it, the point was that it's an insult by proxy” Good for him, and it is not an insult, the fact is there is no god, no holly texts, all these are men made. If reality is insulting, well, nothing I can do. And rainbows are just the colours of light even if some wish they are not.

If you are completely unwilling to even consider someone else's view or feelings on a subject, there is really no point in arguing about it.
It is however a stance that leads to conflict IMO, because any kind of compromise usually becomes impossible.
But luckily for you, you seem to have the immovable opinion that all conflict only comes from the other side of the argument.

“And you don't seem to understand the point of a religion at all” oh, I do. Oppression, murders, racism, crusades and Jihads, useless debates about non-existent deities and I can carry on.

Not relevant to my point.

“I'm not sure I want to share your modern idea of human rights” I sure of this as yours seem a little bit from Bronze Ages tribes orientated, slavery, inequality, etc… By the way, having as reference a book agreeing with slavery, genocide and aggression is not a good move. Well, for me at least.

If you think that is what I'm about, I guess there is nothing I can do to change that, it's quite funny though, given that PVC called me an atheist recently and now you call me a bronze age age slavery supporter which I assume is your way of calling me too religious. I'm also waiting for Kadagar to point out that this quote there is just part of a sentence that you quoted out of context. You two seem to agree a lot on this topic, so maybe you'll believe him when he says that.