ISIS on the offensive in Iraq

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern...orces#Vehicles

You mean all those modern Patton tanks would stop them for long?
Of course they would suffer serious casualties, even the Pattons are not a complete pushover, but I was comparing this to an evasion of the EU, so...

No, he means the 750 Leopard I and II tanks.

Turkey has more Leopard II tanks than Germany.

Also, unlike the Germans, the Turks mean business and any Russian invasion would be made to suffer as much as possible - no punches would be pulled.

[Husar]

No, he means the 750 Leopard I and II tanks.

Turkey has more Leopard II tanks than Germany.

Also, unlike the Germans, the Turks mean business and any Russian invasion would be made to suffer as much as possible - no punches would be pulled.

That's ridiculous....

How is the Leopard 1 modern? Their Leopard 2 are only like 30 or 40 more than Germany has and the A4 standard is not entirely new either, the A5 was introduced in the early 90s...
Not to forget that Germany would not be the only country they'd have to face when invading Europe.
Even if I take your comment about the Germans not meaning business seriously, the glorious British would obviously bravely send their superior tanks and singlehandedly beat back the evil red flood, so there, invading Turkey is much easier...

[ICantSpellDawg]

Turkey has the second largest standing army in NATO.

Remember, the US couldn't defeat Vietnam.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's ridiculous....

How is the Leopard 1 modern? Their Leopard 2 are only like 30 or 40 more than Germany has and the A4 standard is not entirely new either, the A5 was introduced in the early 90s...
Not to forget that Germany would not be the only country they'd have to face when invading Europe.
Even if I take your comment about the Germans not meaning business seriously, the glorious British would obviously bravely send their superior tanks and singlehandedly beat back the evil red flood, so there, invading Turkey is much easier...

Sorry Husar - our army is in a pretty bad way too, our armour has been even more ground down that yours.

If you need to stop the Red Flood may I suggest the Greeks?

I'm sure they're only too happy to help fellow Europeans.

Back when you were serious about defending the Fulda Gap you had over two thousand tanks - now you have a tenth of that.

Turkey has a massive tank force, yes they have many older tanks but the spearhead are the Leopard II and Leopard I tanks in that order. Russia doesn't have a huge number of modern tanks either, remember, the majority of their tanks are still T-80s.

Add to that the fact that Anatolia is one of the worst places to invade in the world and you rapidly conclude it's not worth it for the Russians, it would require a general mobalisation and I don't think Russia can afford that financially or domestically.

[Brenus]

If we want to stop the "Red Storm" we have to built tanks, APC, heavy guns and trained the crews and troops. I don't know for you guys, but thanks to the strain of Presidents on France, we don't have any more the capacity to do so, as Sarkozy sold France to NATO, dismantled our factories (including the one producing special metal to Mittal who shut it down) producing weapons, and sold the premises and field where we were training to friends and relatives. The Infantry Combat School where I trained doesn't exist any more and is now a area of nice (but expensive) flats. All went for so-called inter-arms school, on the principal that a mechanic has the same needs than a grunt. All the "savoir-faire" based on experience and traditions is just gone.
Like others, France sacrificed the heavy gears for light intervention brigades, light infantry brigade type Legion/paratroopers/overseas troops, equipped with magnified APC, well, even not APC but glorified lorries (VAB)... And even not enough of them. Operations type Mali put an unsustainable strain on the French Army: No troops, no helicopters, no planes, limit of ammunition, logistic just good enough thanks to US Air force back-up. With a more robust enemy... So, Red Storm, let have a laugh...

And that why I think Hollande went to see Putin for Iraq. If France want to sent boots (Foreign Legion first, I suppose), France will need the MI-24 and the Russian Controlled facilities...

[Husar]

Turkey has the second largest standing army in NATO.

Larger than all EU countries together?

Sorry Husar - our army is in a pretty bad way too, our armour has been even more ground down that yours.

If you need to stop the Red Flood may I suggest the Greeks?

I'm sure they're only too happy to help fellow Europeans.

Back when you were serious about defending the Fulda Gap you had over two thousand tanks - now you have a tenth of that.

That was my point, most of these tanks are still in service in EU countries: Spain, Poland, Sweden, Greece...
Add to that the British tanks, the Italian ones, the French Leclercs, the Polish Twardys and you're seriously going to argue that attacking the EU is easier than Turkey? Or did you just forget how we started this argument? We didn't even get to the Air Forces and other assets yet...

Turkey has a massive tank force, yes they have many older tanks but the spearhead are the Leopard II and Leopard I tanks in that order. Russia doesn't have a huge number of modern tanks either, remember, the majority of their tanks are still T-80s.

These T-80s can take on all of these Turkish tanks, especially upgraded T-80s that are more modern than pretty much all the active tanks Turkey has.

Add to that the fact that Anatolia is one of the worst places to invade in the world and you rapidly conclude it's not worth it for the Russians, it would require a general mobalisation and I don't think Russia can afford that financially or domestically.

I never said they're going to invade, I said it's strange how people used to say Putin is coming for Europe and now even Turkey is too much for him...

[Brenus]

That is this strange "schizophrenia": Putin will invade all the world, but Putin can't attack even Georgia as his armies are made of tin foiled tanks/planes/whatever manned by drunken crews...
And they believed both proposals...

[Fisherking]

This article on the situation in Turkey is actually being rather kind to Erdogan. They speak of smuggled oil from ISIS and don’t bring up Erdogan’s son, who seems involved with it and is the Turkish equivalent of a Mafia Don.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-BURLEIGH.html
It tells us the Turkish Army is around 500,000 strong.

Yesterday, I here of two prominent Turkish Journalists were arrested, charged with espionage, and helping a terror organisation, (a US based opposition group to Erdogan) when in fact what they did was expose government cooperation and aid to ISIS.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/two...&NewsCatID=339

[Greyblades]

That is this strange "schizophrenia": Putin will invade all the world, but Putin can't attack even Georgia as his armies are made of tin foiled tanks/planes/whatever manned by drunken crews...
And they believed both proposals...

Eh. Either russia would fail to beat the turkish army or they win but end up in another afghanistan.

[Gilrandir]

That is this strange "schizophrenia": Putin will invade all the world, but Putin can't attack even Georgia as his armies are made of tin foiled tanks/planes/whatever manned by drunken crews...
And they believed both proposals...

If you mean my comment, then you again misread it. I said of zero likelihood for Russians TO BE LET THROUGH Georgia. I don't doubt Russia can FIGHT ITS WAY through Georgia and win. But it will mean fighting one enemy to create a landbridge to fight another. Too much fighting OPENLY. Putin will do things in his favorite surreptitious mean way. Perhaps we will soon hear of oppressed Armenians, their Orthodox brethren, living amid bloodthirsty Nazi Turks and calling on Putin the Deliverer to free them from the yoke.

[Husar]

If you mean my comment, then you again misread it.

At least as far as I'm concerned, these arguments come more from the direction of our two resident doomsday posters who can't wait to die in a glorious explosion in WW3, PFFF and ICPFFF (obviously I don't want to spell either ).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That was my point, most of these tanks are still in service in EU countries: Spain, Poland, Sweden, Greece...
Add to that the British tanks, the Italian ones, the French Leclercs, the Polish Twardys and you're seriously going to argue that attacking the EU is easier than Turkey? Or did you just forget how we started this argument? We didn't even get to the Air Forces and other assets yet...

Tanks in Greece do you no good if Russia invades Germany - by the time you can transfer the tanks between fronts the Russians are through the Gap. By contrast Turkey has 3,000 tanks in Anatolia.

These T-80s can take on all of these Turkish tanks, especially upgraded T-80s that are more modern than pretty much all the active tanks Turkey has.

If Russia deployed all it's T-80 tanks it could probably beat Turkey, but that means stripping a lot of its garrisons and Russia is unlike to do that. Like the Turks Russia would be likely to use a mix of older and newer tanks. Turks are reputed to be good tankmen and if you're invading Anatolia it can be hell on Earth, like Russia itself.

I never said they're going to invade, I said it's strange how people used to say Putin is coming for Europe and now even Turkey is too much for him...

The amount of armour in German is between 1/4 and 1/5 of what's in Germany including all German, British and American formations. the German army has recieved a reputation in recent years for being demoralised and overweight, while the UK army today has very low morale due to constant cutting of men and fun stuff like tanks.

Even so, nobody was saying that Putin would invade NATO/the EU but that we would struggle to stop him from annexing parts of EU countries because of our unwilingness to fight. You don't want to fight - you've openly said that in the event of war you'll run away and hide.

Me, I know I'm of draftable age and if the proverbial hits the air circulation mechanism I'm going to end up in the Green. So I'd prefer SigInt or failing that Artillery because I might actually be not-terrible at those.

I don't want to fight, thanks, but I'm perfectly willing to if required.

[Husar]

Tanks in Greece do you no good if Russia invades Germany - by the time you can transfer the tanks between fronts the Russians are through the Gap. By contrast Turkey has 3,000 tanks in Anatolia.

Germany and Greece are not the only countries in the EU.

If Russia deployed all it's T-80 tanks it could probably beat Turkey, but that means stripping a lot of its garrisons and Russia is unlike to do that. Like the Turks Russia would be likely to use a mix of older and newer tanks. Turks are reputed to be good tankmen and if you're invading Anatolia it can be hell on Earth, like Russia itself.

Good for them.

The amount of armour in German is between 1/4 and 1/5 of what's in Germany including all German, British and American formations.

¿Qué?

the German army has recieved a reputation in recent years for being demoralised and overweight, while the UK army today has very low morale due to constant cutting of men and fun stuff like tanks.

And the Russians are all drunk, so I guess we're even.

Even so, nobody was saying that Putin would invade NATO/the EU but that we would struggle to stop him from annexing parts of EU countries because of our unwilingness to fight.

I'm pretty sure that you or someone else talked about that it may be better to strike against Russia now before Putin comes or something like that back in the Ukraine thread.

You don't want to fight - you've openly said that in the event of war you'll run away and hide.

Yes, it depends on the circumstances as well, but especially if it is a war over something I consider a stupid political event where "my side" may even be to blame for the escalation.

I don't want to fight, thanks, but I'm perfectly willing to if required.

Define "required" in this context.

[Brenus]

"Germany and Greece are not the only countries in the EU." Is it not the Greece made of overpaid lazy greedy tax dodgers we speak about here? The one who should have been expel from EU?
Well, apparently the French, Spanish, Italian and others are not in Europe, or perhaps not considered as forces...

[Gilrandir]

If Russia deployed all it's T-80 tanks it could probably beat Turkey, but that means stripping a lot of its garrisons and Russia is unlike to do that.

The key word here is "if". It doesn't explain HOW Russians are going to get their tanks in contacts with the Turks.