A Gentleman's Guide to Open Carry

[ICantSpellDawg]

A Gentleman's Guide To Open Carry

"There is a difference between what is allowed, and what is prudent. Within the open carry movement there are a lot of people with good intentions who are actually detrimental to the larger cause of expanding gun rights. Carrying a rifle on your back into a Chipotle in a relatively safe suburban neighborhood is not an effective way to win hearts and minds for the cause."

Personally, I carry whenever allowed by my local County and State law (which is rarely). I am not able to do it openly. Do any of you have experiences with this?

"Speak up, speak often, and don't worry about those that at this point can not understand as they can never un-hear what we tell them." - Ron Paul

[ICantSpellDawg]

Why? Understatement and conciliation, only if it furthers the cause. Not as an end in and of itself. Your advice is to shrivel up and blow away. You should strategize for a living.

In my ideal world, everyone on the planet carries a guns and hardly anyone gets shot. Simply loosening gun laws won't do that, but that is the fun part to push.
If we beat the Statists back often enough, they may get desperate enough to make real compromise.

[a completely inoffensive name]

All you need to do is stick with the facts. Just ask the FBI whether gun crimes have gone down or up over the past two decades despite guns being more prevalent in the US.

But the fact is that all you talk about is how to go about making grand public displays of weaponry and beating back the "statists" as if people are as ideologically minded as you are when voting. This is why no one takes you seriously.

[Papewaio]

Most Aussies are smart arses yet very few of us get shot. Very few of us have firearms.

It's like insisting everyone carry their tools of trade. Firearms are tools and different ones are for different scenarios. I would find it strange to see a duck hunter with a shotgun carrying it into a pet store.

[ICantSpellDawg]

It is bad manners to carry a weapon that is unlikely to be used for self defense into a store. I agree. The point of the article is to suggest this.

[ICantSpellDawg]

It'll be ugly, and the side you don't want to win will in fact win.

So what. Bring it on. Nobody wins forever, In the end we're all goners. If you cut and run because you're afraid you'll lose, you are a coward. Rome was built and empire seemed inevitable. Then it collapsed.

I like our chances. Personally, I see the country as you and I know it dissolving in the next 50 years one way or the other.

[ICantSpellDawg]

If at first you don't secede...
Just kidding, we're not going anywhere. This time we'll stay lodged in there until they want out.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I know its a crass comparison, and aside from the mentality and the results they really don't have a lot in common. I think it would take a lot more years of this kind of garbage, plus an actual stepping up of this sort of thing on part of gun nuts, in order to bring about the kind of gun control that could lead to shootouts or what-have-you. We're a long ways from that. But the mentality among some gun owners that such a situation could ever, and I mean ever work out to their advantages just really boggles the mind. The Constitution has been circumvented so often and so blatantly over the last few decades that one should look at the 2nd Amendment as a privilege, not a right. I don't say that to endorse such a viewpoint, but to acknowledge that that is the reality whether one agrees with it or not.

That you would say that "our protected rights are circumvented as the rule" and then find yourself at the endpoint "therefore: we should grovel in conciliation at the foot of our masters" shows your mindset.

People on the right and the left realize that their government is barely pretending to have representative legitimacy anymore. Whether it is the 1% or the New World Order, the experiment of self government seems to be ending. You have a choice when faced with this, to grovel or to arm yourself. People have faced this choice before and have found themselves in both catastrophic result and unexpected success.

If we have a right to keep and bear arms, we have a right to do it. Manners are manners, but if someone thinks that they can assault people for exercising their rights they are wrong. You have implied that exercising your rights in distasteful ways gives people who scare easily the casus belli to abuse those rights. You are incorrect.

[The Lurker Below]

In my ideal world, everyone on the planet carries a guns and hardly anyone gets shot.

Aim low and you're sure to hit the mark.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Urging caution for who? I am not following your thought process. I believe that open carrying long rifles while shopping is bad manners and harmful to the cause. I am in agreement that people scare easily and react irrationally and in ways profoundly ignorant of law and civil rights.

The Gay lobby was once told the same thing, just be gay at home and maybe people won't react as strongly. They did the opposite. Aggressive and stereotypical gay activity was frowned upon by advocates while seemingly innocent PDA's were encouraged. Family shows advocating monogomous gay relationships were pushed into the mainstream. People don't scare as easily and what was once the unthinkable is pumped into your household on a nightly basis. Clever marketing.

It also deconstructs your argument. We want firearms carried by the law abiding to be the norm. You can't make this happen if the arms are concealed... Or closeted. We need to force them into view in order to desensitize the reaction of fear. That is why the fight is worth it. You do this with small caliber pistols carried by handsome and relaxed men and women who confound the stereotypes. It is marketing civil rights.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Im petty sure that my previous post shows that my argument is more than that. And yes, I am most certainly using a similar strategy that was successfully used by other civil rights movements to great success.

[Papewaio]

Amendments can be amended right?

So I think GCs argument is that if the majority get annoyed enough then a vote could come along to alter the 2nd say only regulated militia ie those who are serving or served in the military can now bear arms. All others get their weapons bought back. That's what happens when the majority gets knocked out of its comfort zone. And quite off the pendulum swings too far in the process.

[ICantSpellDawg]

You are speaking out of both sides. First you say that they will take away our guns if we don't shut up, now you are saying that would never happen because of logistics. People are within their right to try to amend the Constitution, but there is a reason that this is so rare. Even if they amended the Constitution, they still have to come and get them

[Lemur]

Meh, I find the entire positioning of the 2nd Amendment really weird and ahistorical.

Did the founders envision a standing army? Nope. They thought that was a thing to avoid.

Did the founders envision paramilitary police? Nope, unimaginable to them.

Did they want everything organized around citizen militias? Yep. They figured that was the way to avoid the self-evident evil of a standing army.

Our situation is so wildly out of whack with what they intendend, and by extension, what they meant when they wrote the short, simple sentence that is the Second Amendment.

All of this talk about YOU HAVE TO GO AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION is bullhockey. The everybody-gets-a-gun with minimal regulation thing? That is a recent invention. Has absolutely nothing to do with the Second Amendment, unless you choose to read it in a brain-bendingly selective manner.

Reprint:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

[SwordsMaster]

Meh, I find the entire positioning of the 2nd Amendment really weird and ahistorical.

Did the founders envision a standing army? Nope. They thought that was a thing to avoid.

Did the founders envision paramilitary police? Nope, unimaginable to them.

Did they want everything organized around citizen militias? Yep. They figured that was the way to avoid the self-evident evil of a standing army.

Our situation is so wildly out of whack with what they intendend, and by extension, what they meant when they wrote the short, simple sentence that is the Second Amendment.

All of this talk about YOU HAVE TO GO AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION is bullhockey. The everybody-gets-a-gun with minimal regulation thing? That is a recent invention. Has absolutely nothing to do with the Second Amendment, unless you choose to read it in a brain-bendingly selective manner.

Reprint:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Exactly, what the constitution enshrines is, in effect, something like Finland or Switzerland. Nothing to do with carrying guns shopping with you.

[Lemur]

Exactly, what the constitution enshrines is, in effect, something like Finland or Switzerland. Nothing to do with carrying guns shopping with you.

Yep, and all of the letters, speeches, and public records from the time support that position.

Thomas Jefferson: "The Greeks and Romans had no standing armies, yet they defended themselves. The Greeks by their laws, and the Romans by the spirit of their people, took care to put into the hands of their rulers no such engine of oppression as a standing army. Their system was to make every man a soldier and oblige him to repair to the standard of his country whenever that was reared. This made them invincible; and the same remedy will make us so."

James Madison: "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. [...] War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few."

George Washington: "a large standing Army in time of Peace hath ever been considered dangerous to the liberties of a Country"

And on and on and on. The evidence is overwhelming. The Second Amendment is clearly, obviously an aspect of the founders' distrust/fear of maintaining a standing army. To cite 2A and not understand its context and intent is just insane.

[Pannonian]

Yep, and all of the letters, speeches, and public records from the time support that position.

Thomas Jefferson: "The Greeks and Romans had no standing armies, yet they defended themselves. The Greeks by their laws, and the Romans by the spirit of their people, took care to put into the hands of their rulers no such engine of oppression as a standing army. Their system was to make every man a soldier and oblige him to repair to the standard of his country whenever that was reared. This made them invincible; and the same remedy will make us so."

Didn't the Greeks and Romans consider barbaric to carry swords and daggers around in normal company?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Your aggravated assault rate is more than double the rate in the US. I hope that the US takes a different route to crime reduction from the one that the Europeans have. Imagine what your countrie's would look like if you had a massive population of off the boat total morons, their kids, and inner city blacks. We have that here. They arent responsible for all of the murders, but they are responsible for MOST. Do you know how crazy that is?

Our rate of white perpetrated murders is still too high, but it has been dropping for many years, as have homicides in general. The idea that we can stop blacks and hispanics from murdering one another at a rate as high as other countries with large Hispanic or black populations is a tall order, but we're working on it. Gun control won't do that, but education reform, drug law reform, public school pre-k and kindergarten might.

I'm not anti-immigrant or anti-black, but they drive our crime rates and make our country more barbaric. Personally, I'm fine with a bit of barbarism and I think that they bring a lot to the table, but it is like raising toddlers. Insane criminal toddlers with diseases. But if we do it right they could grow into adults and be better than the natives.

[Ironside]

Your aggravated assault rate is more than double the rate in the US. I hope that the US takes a different route to crime reduction from the one that the Europeans have. Imagine what your countrie's would look like if you had a massive population of off the boat total morons, their kids, and inner city blacks. We have that here. They arent responsible for all of the murders, but they are responsible for MOST. Do you know how crazy that is?

That's because the data is messed up. It's the data for minor, "normal" and aggrevated assult combined, since they aren't split up in the data. That's about 80.000-85.000 (data taken from Brå).
From those, about 2.500 needs to stay at the hospital. I'm missing the weapon threats, to get the proper comparision. But I can do an estimate:

In the US aggrevated assult is weapon threat and/or hospital stay for more than two days.

FBI got the stats for weapon used and the total number of aggrevated assults. In about 25% of the cases, it's done using only the human body (more common than firearms). We know that 100% of those victims ended up in the hospital, since it wouldn't be aggrevated otherwise. Now using that number will miss everyone that got severly wounded by a weapon, but gives us an upper limit on those threatened by weapons, but not seriously wounded.

Multiply 2.500 hospital visits by 4 and you'll get an upper limit of 10.000. It's probably around 5.000-7.500 in reality.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I'm not opposed to certain types of "gun control", but the focus on semi auto rifles is nonsense. Most gun crimes and homicides are committed with revolvers or, to a lesser extent, semi auto handguns. To be honest, background checks for all sales are a good idea HOWEVER there are too many people acting in bad faith and attempting to use this to ban firearms and make ownership more and more difficult for individuals who are at a low risk of offense. This is why it would be best for everyone to compromise in the truest sense of the word; more background checks for expansion of renewable license concealed carry OR at the very least modifying the background check system using a pre-clearance system as suggested by Sen Tom Coburn.

If I hear an "OK" idea that will somewhat limit my right, I will fight it in principle unless my right is expanded elsewhere. Gun control should have a neutral effect on my right to keep and bear arms - if that means voting everything down, fine. If that means expand here, contract there, fine. No more damaging "compromise".

If you don't like it, push for amendment or repeal of the 2a. Or we could work together in good faith.

[GenosseGeneral]

As someone stated, the stakes become more lethal…
https://www.aclu.org/war-comes-home-...rican-policing
Did noone ever have the idea, that police violence *COULD* result from the fact, that an American cop is far more likely to encounter an armed citizen than his European counterpart?

[Husar]

Did noone ever have the idea, that police violence *COULD* result from the fact, that an American cop is far more likely to encounter an armed citizen than his European counterpart?

I actually said that several times in previous threads on the subject, I'm pretty sure it's part of the problem but I wouldn't say it's the only reason for police brutality.

It probably contributes heavily to the militarization of the police.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Gun ownership has nothing to do with militarization of police. That's pure ignorance. Militarization of police stems from excess military hardware being produced by military contractors that need new buyers now that the US has gradually de-escalated our wars in iraq and afghanistan.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Gun ownership has nothing to do with militarization of police. That's pure ignorance. Militarization of police stems from excess military hardware being produced by military contractors that need new buyers now that the US has gradually de-escalated our wars in iraq and afghanistan.

Well it probably doesn't discourage the militarization of police. It could be argued in a chicken/egg dynamic. I encourage the militarization of police, I just don't encourage the abuse of it with this no-knock raid madness. Local control over more and more military hardware is a good thing.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Well it probably doesn't discourage the militarization of police. It could be argued in a chicken/egg dynamic. I encourage the militarization of police, I just don't encourage the abuse of it with this no-knock raid madness. Local control over more and more military hardware is a good thing.

This doesn't even make sense from your twisted perspective. Letting cops play soldier in your neighborhood turns daily patrols into an occupation. Cops would be more hesitant to do no-knock raids on innocent people if the people inside were on the same level as them in terms of firepower.

[Husar]

Gun ownership has nothing to do with militarization of police. That's pure ignorance. Militarization of police stems from excess military hardware being produced by military contractors that need new buyers now that the US has gradually de-escalated our wars in iraq and afghanistan.

So they are forced to buy it and do not want it?

[Husar]

Oh the cops want it, but not just because of the equipment--also because it comes with extra funding for training programs and maintenance for the systems they've acquired. The people really profiting from this are the companies making the equipment. But its more complicated than that, since most of it was paid for during the Bush years, and is being sold at discount prices by the department of defense to police departments. Basically, fallout from the war on terror--both in terms of legal precedent for police empowering themselves (partially defeated by the recent supreme court decision) and in terms of supplying the material. The fact is most of it is already paid for by tax payers, and has been since the last presidential administration. When the police are tired of their new toys, they'll sell them again at a further discount to third world countries. Watch.

*Also, while a lot of the stuff being sold to police departments is actually sold in the traditional sense, things like MRAPs or tracked IFVs will never actually belong to the police department, most of the time. Its more like an indefinite loan from the factory, with your money buying maintenance teams and technical experts. When the equipment changes hands again down the road, the contracts will still be with the same companies.

I'm not denying any of that. It's just that if the police feel threatened by almost anyone they stop, they are far more likely to want all that additional training and equipment than they are if they can solve more problems by talking instead of a shootout.

Our police here are not that different, they only got full coverage of bullet proof vests after a few series of police murders many years ago when it became apparent to them that they would need more than a shirt to make it more likely to come home after a shift. Police work is actually getting safer in both of our countries statistically speaking but that does not mean it's how the police perceive it.

http://www.copblock.org/2198/is-viol...ly-increasing/
http://www.dw.de/reality-of-violence...ove/a-16305755

[Ironside]

Gun ownership has nothing to do with militarization of police. That's pure ignorance. Militarization of police stems from excess military hardware being produced by military contractors that need new buyers now that the US has gradually de-escalated our wars in iraq and afghanistan.

It's probably one factor. Being a cop in the US is more dangerous than in western Europe.

The gun fetish attitude in quite a bit of police recruitment videos, with military gear, does give the impression of the police embracing a violent attitude and that your point has more influence.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I know cops in the area. They are like a better armed militia not under the direct control of the State and Federal government. They aren't walking around in fatigues with select fire weapons, they are maintaining an armory. So long as they respect due process it is merely maintenance of an armory with local men and women trained for a catastrophe. I'm against the bad fruits of the policy but in favor of the underlying principle,

[a completely inoffensive name]

I know cops in the area. They are like a better armed militia not under the direct control of the State and Federal government. They aren't walking around in fatigues with select fire weapons, they are maintaining an armory. So long as they respect due process it is merely maintenance of an armory with local men and women trained for a catastrophe. I'm against the bad fruits of the policy but in favor of the underlying principle,

Unless you live in New Hampshire where everybody is a hardcore libertarian looking to create that "free state", this is an utter joke. If you look at a cop from LA, NY or Chicago the wrong way, you are likely to get ****** very hard by the police. Or did you forget what Orange County cops like to do with their homeless?