New SS 6.4 HS: preparations thread (2 turns per week)

[Vipman]

Wait you mean to start hotseat from now? I thought this was about doing more runs from this save until turn 60-70 instead of starting from turn 1 again.

[LooseCannon1]

You've asked for my opinion-here it is.

Not liking the turn 44 save at all. First, I think we should start on a "something-first" turn,( i.e. 51st, 61st, 71st) or "something-ninth" (i.e. 49th, 59th)that will make it easier to figure out when NAPs or such will end. I know you intend to keep a list of diplomatic agreements but it's easier to not have to refer to the thread while playing. I play in a window but if you play full screen you have to exit the game to check the list.

On the factions

Myth is going to have to manipulate the save.

Vipman wants the TO so he should be given a stack (or two) plus money and ending the vassilage to Novgorod.

The jihad should be allowed to run its course, not cancelled (city will be conquered on turn 45 or 46). THEN delete 19 units from Kwazem, 37 from the Turks, 10? from the Moors (half stack near Antwerp-can't they read a map?) and 4 units (or more) from Fatimids (small stack, may have more units join before end of jihad). After jihad ends, teleport generals back to faction's capital and give Constantinople to better of Hungary/ERE

Crusader States can be saved if given troops & money on turn 44 but it is in a tough spot.

A lot of work would be needed to make ERE playable.

The HRE is actually in a tough spot (I think Tonno wants Poland anyway) with only 3 male family members and one about to die. A human coalition could end it easily.

Damn, 5 posts in the time it took me to write this (and a PM).

[sonnet]

Invicta, may I add that AI Egypt eliminates AI Koj by turn 70 in this exact save? No Jihad involved.

IMO the KoJ needs some armies to remain relevant. Also, I'm a bit worried that hte save is so young, meanng the AI bonuses for grwoth didn't have time to raise most castles to fortresses IIRC.

If KoJ remain AI, sure you can add more armies.
But if KoJ is turned human (depending on Dur3x choice), KoJ shouldn't get any reinforcements for 2 reasons:
1-Like I said some post above, giving the block was meant to give a playable faction to each player for each block (so that if Genoa is doing bad, the player can still choose Venice). Since Egypt in in excellent conditions, the player can choose between a very easy campaign with Egypt, or a bit harder (but not impossible) campaign with KoJ.
2-KoJ like I mentioned in the past, has a too strong unit roaster: problem is not strength, while cost effectiveness of its units (like its zweihander or spearmen , templar units and so on). It's a killer faction and should not be helped in any shape or form imo.

And if KoJ it's turned human the units I added in the descr.strat (the templar guards unist) should be disbanded.
Because that stack that survived can easily destroy 10 or 20 stacks quite easily (particularly with a good general).
To give an example I used that army to defeat some Egyptian and Turkish armies: see the number of men lost.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

About AI Egypt defeating AI KoJ: that doesn't say anything. The reason is that the AI behaves badly for factions that are surrounded by other factions (somehow the many choices for expansions creates a stalemate that paralyzes the faction and doesn't make it use the armies effectively, while on the other hand factions on the borders with only one way to expand are much more aggressive and effective).
The best example is Scotland: scottish unit-roaster is extremely weak in AR (for both strength-cost-effectivenes and recruitment rate, and imo only cumans are weaker), while England has the 2nd or third strongest unit roaster.
Scotland should be then easily defeated (starting with only 3 settlements). Yes the William Wallace stacks helps, but that doesn't explain why are so resilient (KoJ starts much better ,has a stronger unit roaster and yet unless I gave ,like I did, templar guards units , it dies quite quickly). The reason is like I explained in its position that makes the AI act very effectively.

[yuonyuon]

The strongest faction on turn 44 is HRE.

Turks have 2 jihad armies which are to be disbanded on the first turn.
Turks have much less secure position than its muslim neighbors (which have similar power): Kwarezm (with mongols almost defeated, have south and eastern borders totally secure, and on the north the weak cumans) & Egypt (again south borders totally secure, western borders are virtually secure protected by the desert).

Turks are surrounded by all powerful factions: Egypt, Kwarezm, Hungary and likely Kiev.
I really don't get your logic.

That being said, if anyone wants to switch with my faction and can play in my timeframe I can swap with no problem, as I have being doing from the start having been the last one to choose.

How can t you understand my logic , you have the factions ranking right before your eyes , and you don see that Turks are the strongest human faction?

if we going to start i m very pleased with that.

[sonnet]

How can t you understand my logic , you have the factions ranking right before your eyes , and you don see that Turks are the strongest human faction?

if we going to start i m very pleased with that.

You do realize that HRE (which is the strongest) can be taken? Tonno can choose either Poland or HRE. Choice is up to him.

[sonnet]

Wait you mean to start hotseat from now? I thought this was about doing more runs from this save until turn 60-70 instead of starting from turn 1 again.

Ideally yes, I was aiming at turn 60-70.
I even instructed Jiub last Friday to try (as he was supposed to be co-admin anyway) to make a run (more people try to make a run more chances to get something balanced), but then players opposed to him being co-admin.

Myth tried already to start from turn 44, but (turn 51 I believe) things got worse.

The alternative is to start with Vanilla setup. In that case Mongols (either they become human or AI) will keep their 6 stacks and money and get no further reinforcements.
But being AR only, everyone should be aware of what that means.

Most importantly players should understand that you can't have everything.
I have tried to give an example by being available to take any faction that was left (and like I said, even with turn 44, if anyone can play in my time-slot and like the Turks, by all means ask a swap and I'll comply).
A bit of flexibility (it would have been great if everyone trusted Jiub and Tavix ,whom by accepting to be co-admin were doing a huge favor) would help us to start.

I can't ask more from Myth who has been extremely patient with me and all of us in general.

[yuonyuon]

I played with the Turks and they can take Antioch and Constantinople from turn one. after that they can destroy the best Persian army at Mosul. next turn Trebizond and Canakkale will fall and remember that you said at the beginning good players should get weak factions

About Koj is because there are two different scripts for 1v1 war and 1v2 war .Koj is doing good until another enemy steps in . you can give them 10 stack if they are at war with 2 factions they still act in deference . these script are very obvious in diplomacy also.

[sonnet]

.Koj is doing good until another enemy steps in . you can give them 10 stack if they are at war with 2 factions they still act in deference . these script are very obvious in diplomacy also.

KoJ is doing well only because I gave it 2 super stacks. With Vanilla setup, KoJ gets destroyed between turn 15-30,despite having a better unit roaster. Egypt also gets attacked by the Turks, so the 2vs1 is not a valid point.
I ran already to skip-a-few in Beyond the dark and Under the sky HS, so I have already experienced the AI behavior.

About Kwarezm being detsroyed by Turks: the turn peace and the money Kwarezm got, gives Kwarezm the chance of recruiting many units if wanted. Turks attacked by Fatmids (who has a better unit roaster and buildings) and Kwarezm (better buildings and equal units) stands no chance.

The problem in balancing comes with JIhad/crusades mostly. That's why I wanted Jiub abd Tavix as co-admin to try to run the script too, as by trying many times we would have got the best save.


Like I said: I'm available to swap faction, if you can play at my time slot, by all means take the Turks and lets see how you'll do. And in any case, Turks (before Loose Cannon joined) were the last faction left (Ebs chose to take Moors-Sicily block rather than Turks). You took the Turks and played it against the AI.
Turks against human neighbors is a total different story (starting from the fact that crusade can be called after few turns, ending with Fatmids who have no threats and alone could easily destroy the Turks and I wouldn't want to spoil more about that).

About Constantinople and Antioch: Fatmids already control 2 large cities (Alexandria and Cairo) and with Jerusalem they'd control a huge city too.

[Myth]

Guys, if you are not in an immediate hurry I'm happy to run more saves for you until we get something great. My day consists of work, gym and then going home to have dinner and watch the world cup. While doing so, I'm running your saves. It fits perfectly so far, so worry not on that end.

Invicta, I asked you before but I guess you didn't see it or didn't have time. Can you explain how SS AR works and differs from Vanilla?

We had a huge argument on the TWC back in the day, because I argued with you regarding infantry in AR. In Vanilla and Kingdoms, the infantry with the most defence and men per unit dominates unconditionally. Traits like extra health, super high morale and endurance also help. So if we are playing let's say the Teutonics campaign for Kingdoms, the Teutonic Order's extremely cheap, esily available 21 defence Order Spearmen will clean house from turn 1. Same with Britannia's England which gets Armoured Swordsmen and Armoured Sergeants out the wazoo from turn 1.

You showed me an example where 4 units of Scholarii ARed I think 8 or 10 units of Arab Spearmen no problem. How exaclty does AR work in SS? And how would you rate the AR roster for factions?

Another quesion: do you guys play lead battles at all? SS lead battle games are super fun. It's the time where jav cav and HAs can be a nightmare instead of fodder.

[Vipman]

Don't know very much about SS AR system but I did observe missile and cavalry units got up to 2-3 secondary hp while infantry 0 or 1. Secondary hp is not the main hit points you all know, it's a secondary hit points value, left over from RTW where it was used for elephant hit points, in M2TW it has no effect in lead battles but it has effect in AR. Otherwise this is probably the biggest improvement I see, along with the way unit stats were done, like spearmen having much lower attack value compared to vanilla.

[Tonno]

Don't know very much about SS AR system but I did observe missile and cavalry units got up to 2-3 secondary hp while infantry 0 or 1. Secondary hp is not the main hit points you all know, it's a secondary hit points value, left over from RTW where it was used for elephant hit points, in M2TW it has no effect in lead battles but it has effect in AR. Otherwise this is probably the biggest improvement I see, along with the way unit stats were done, like spearmen having much lower attack value compared to vanilla.

*cough* *cough* you forgot to mention unit bonuses, such as ap or area effects for archers *cough* *cough*

[Gaius Octavius Caesar]

I like the save. Almost everyone has a fortress or more except Denmark, Kiev and TO from what i checked.

[Vipman]

I said unit stats in general and gave an example. And do I have to say my experience with SS is 2 SP campaigns of ~20 turns each I played like 4 years ago so are irrelevant and currently 1 (one) played turn in BfE?

Area effect for archers waaaaaaat???

[sonnet]

Invicta, I asked you before but I guess you didn't see it or didn't have time. Can you explain how SS AR works and differs from Vanilla?

The difference with Vanilla has to be with hidden bonuses given to the units.
But in general, AP (armor piercing) bonus has a much greater effect in SS than vanilla.

Moreover many cavalry units have 2/3 in number of soldiers compared to standard infantry units ( on the EDU file, its 32 units for those cavalry, while on vanilla MTWII it's 24 for all the cavalry units, and swordsmen are generally 48). Same goes for archers with some units that have 60 soldiers rather than standard 48.
Archers do well against infantry (both swordsmen and spearmen) in SS, while in vanilla all archers units are mostly weak. Archers are weak against cavalry in SS, while in vanilla due to the lack of hidden bonuses good archers mostly beat cavalry.
Spearmen are only good against non-late cavalry units. Normally i believe that the only spearmen units worthy to be recruited (but it still not an excellent choice) are the Heavy Spearmen recruitable by all the muslim factions.
Cavarly units do well against archers normally.
I made a test once: basically (in full stacks with 3 trials for same battles), comapring units with the same upkeep, ME Heavy archers could beat Castrophilake (medium-good swordsmen) as also Scoutatoi Spearmen (equivalent of ME Heavy Spearmen, just with a higher upkeep).
The same Heavy Archers got beaten by Stratiotae Cavalry (ERE average cavalry unit). Stratiotae cavalry gets beaten by spearmen and swordsmen.
The Castrophilake beats the Heavy Spearmen. Halberd Militia mostly beats the Castrophilakae (due to the AP bonus) and the Spearmen.
Also I tested Pike units vs spearmen, and generally pikes beat spearmen as also do better against cavalry,but might be weaker against other kind of units.

Also what many people don't take into account is the recruitment rate: many factions have good units, but recruitment rate may vary greatly and that makes a huge difference. For instance All fatmids elite units have a very high recruitment rate.
That's one of the main reason why Fatmids AI beats KoJ AI (KoJ has a good recruitment rate, but Fatmids are superior in that regard)
On the other hand factions like TO have usually very low recruitment rate .

Another very important aspect to be taken into consideration, is the fact that some faction gets most of its best units in castle/cities , some in fortresses/large cities some in Huge Cities/Citadels.
This hugely affects the game, compared to Vanilla MTWII, in which there's no much difference in strength between units recruitable in castles vs Citadel. In SS a unit recruitable in Citadel might be 20 times stronger than a unit recruitable in a castle.
In Vanilla MTWII even the strongest units can't be 20 times stronger than the weakest unit in the whole game.
For instance in a short SS vanilla HS Sicily might be a better choice than Venice, since Sicily gets for instance his best archers at castle level (while Venice needs a Fortress with Archery range built).

Scholarii are very strong because they have a very high defense (units with 24 or more defense-although it should be specifically related to the armor- do abnormally well against weaker units) and ap bonus.

Last but not least: real recruitment or not and late or early era. Early era is very unbalanced, with ERE way way overpowered (as they gets their best units while other factions do not). Same goes with real recruitment. Late Era with disable real recruitment is the best setup.


Rating unit roaster depends (for the reasons explained above ) on the conditions in which the HS is played (like I said in a short vanilla campaign Sicily might be better than Venice, but in the long term-like more than 60 turns- Venice is better than sicily).

A general rating would be like this:
Very good unit Roaster:
-England, Novgorod ,KoJ and Fatmids

Good Unit roaster:
France, HRE, Turks, Norway & Denmark, Kiev, Hungary, Kwarezm

Average unit roaster:
ERE, Venice, Genoa, Sicily,Moors, TO, Lithuania

Below average:
Poland, Castille, Portugal, Aragon

Very bad Unit roaster (only for legendary challenges)
-Scotland and Cumans


But again, keep in mind that this charts does not tell the whole story.
If Lithuania can get control of 2-3 large cities than its unit roaster can become incredibly strong.
Until many fortresses are developed, ERE roaster is among the best (scholarii are very good, but you can recruit only one every 2 turns in Constantinople only, so having good units doesn't tell the whole story).
If Aragon can take control of Leon and Oporto and Zaragoza develpo into Large city , it can recruit both the incredibly cost-effective units Montesa and Santiago.
If Denmark or Norway can build 4-5 huge cathedrals, then they'llhave the best unit roaster.
And so on..

Fatmids is the easiest unit roaster to manage, as Fatmids starts with 2 large cities, and a Fortress and in the middle have a faction with a fotress and a Huge city.

And you should take into account who are your neighbors: Castille might have a worse unit roaster than ERE.
But ERE have to face the Fatmids and the Turks , particularly the Fatmids and possibly the Russians too, with Hungary on the other end that is certainly not weaker. When you take that into account, you'll see how ERE is not that good. Turks are quite good, but Fatmids are more powerful (and they have also better economy and position). So they might do well against ERE (which has the best economy overall, and thus can support more armies) but they're at disadvantage against Fatmids.
France unit's roaster is very close in strength to England, but England has a much better position,and France has its best cavalry in Citadels, while English cavalry are not that good and gain little in that regard by having citadels which are very hard to develop.

[Tonno]

Area effect for archers waaaaaaat???

That's my little secret.. ha ha ha (to be more precise, missile units)
But to be honest it probably dosn't work, I never realy tested it.

[sonnet]

That's my little secret.. ha ha ha (to be more precise, missile units)
But to be honest it probably dosn't work, I never realy tested it.

I believe it works.
I also believe that with SS, having an army mixed with different kind of units is better than having a single type of units armies, so that different bonuses are given to the same army.

[dur3x]

I do not agree that Turkey should be so great, and you sonnet, , why do you take empires so big, are you noob and do not know how to play? Or do not like to lose because you ruin your reputation as master of m2tw....

[Gaius Octavius Caesar]

I do not agree that Turkey should be so great, and you sonnet, , why do you take empires so big, are you noob and do not know how to play? Or do not like to lose because you ruin your reputation as master of m2tw....

Are you even reading what he wrote? Turkey wasnt picked, switch faction with him if you want the turks.

[dur3x]

Are you even reading what he wrote? Turkey wasnt picked, switch faction with him if you want the turks.

From what you say it appears exactly as he had already chosen the Turks.

[sonnet]

From what you say it appears exactly as he had already chosen the Turks.

I let everybody choose the factions.
Ebs was the last to join, and I offered him to choose between Moors/Sicily or Turks and he chose the former (Moors/Sicily). Here's the pm I sent him:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i58.tinypic.com/zsju46.png

Then Loose Cannon came after we started making the saves already, and took the block which until then was unplayable (Mongols/Cumans/Kwarezm). The faction choice has been made here in the thread, so anyone can read the thread.

My first choice would have been Venice/Genoa, but Core-i7-inside wanted them badly
Alternatively I could have chosen ERE. And in general I like factions in the middle of the map, because although more difficult to manage, there's also more action and excitement and political intrigue.

And like I wrote multiple times, if anybody wants the Turks just ask them as long as you can play in my time-slot

[Tonno]

I do not agree that Turkey should be so great, and you sonnet, , why do you take empires so big, are you noob and do not know how to play? Or do not like to lose because you ruin your reputation as master of m2tw....

[Emproment]

My opinion:

Give Bruges and Caen to Scotland and give York and Edinburgh to England. :) Or give Caen to France and give York to England? Personally I'd like to own as much of the UK as I can and as little of the continent as I can.

Also, how much micromanaging is going to be done to this map? It seems some kingdoms are in weird situations with their troops scattered and some kingdoms have waaaayyyy too much money while others are in the negative or close to bankruptcy.

[Lord Luka]

Ok so i believe the majority are still interested in starting the game as it is if i am right.I mean the save is not that bad.Not all the castles are developed but as far as i am concerned they don't have to be.Factions are pretty balanced too as far as i am concerned and with turks disbanding the 2 stacks at Constantinople I don't see a problem of turks beeing too powerfull.

We will never get a perfect save but with the proposed changes (To getting money and army, disbanding jihad armies etc.) i believe the save is good enough.I for one would really like to get this started.

[Tonno]

Ok so i believe the majority are still interested in starting the game as it is if i am right.I mean the save is not bad.Not all the castles are developed but as far as i am concerned they don't have to be.Factions are pretty balanced too as far as i am concerned and with turks disbanding the 2 stacks at Constantinople I don't see a problem of turks beeing too powerfull.

This is what I like... the other isn't worth reading :P

With a little edit

[yuonyuon]

Are we going to start this , 2 weeks of setup .

EDIT SAVE IS GOOD FOR MEE!!!!

LETS START!

[Emproment]

Everyone is ok with the economical disparity?

Some kingdoms have 80k... others are in the negative.

[Myth]

Thanks Invicta. It seems that for one to be successfully at SS AR they have to get a good mix of units and train up generals, and go for strategic recruitment centers for their faction (and denying such to their enemies).

Mind if I add your write up in the SS section of my Hotseat guide? (See it stickied in the Throne Room) I will of course, give you credit and all that.

[sonnet]

Faction choice: it needs to be known which faction you'll choose to play with:
Keep in mind that:
-Jihad armies will be disbanded.
-TO will get reinforcement and money (2 or 3 full stacks depending also on which Russian faction will be chosen)
-Castille will get an extra stack of santiago knights (half mounted , half dismounted) if Moors are chosen (if Sicily is chosen, then Castille shouldn't need any reinforcement being the only human faction in Iberia).


[00:00-13:00] Venice-Milan Core7-inside [08:00-21:00, time in Bangkok]
[13:00-17:00] Norway-Denmark Gaius Octavianus [15:00-19:00, time in Bucharest]
[17:00-21:00] Novgorod-kiev Makrell [18:00-22:00, Time in Oslo ]
[21:00-00:00] Moors-Sicily EBS [23:00-05:00, time in Sofia]
[00:00-06:00] Mongols-Kwarezm-Cumans Loose Cannon [19:00-01:00, time in Tampa]

[06:00-12:00] Turks Sonnet
[15:00-19:00] koJ- Fatmid Dur3x [17:00-21:00, time in Bucharest]
[19:00-23:00] Castille-Port Yuonyuon [21:00-01:00, time in Bucharest]
[23:00-06:00] England-Scotland Emproment

[06:00-10:00] HRE-Poland Tonno [07:00-11:00,time in Zagreb ]
[10:00-15:30] France- Aragon Jiub [12:00-18:00,time in Bucharest]
[16:00-19:30] ERE-Hungary Lord Luka [17:00-20:30,time in
[19:30-24:00] TO-Lithuania Vipman [21:30-01:00,time in Bucharest]


Please make your preference public.
@Myth : I don't mind it at all. On the contrary, I'd be glad.

[Gaius Octavius Caesar]

Norway sounds good. Denmark is in really bad shape.

[Makrell]

Kiev, and dont care which turn we start