Restless crowns: forging empires [Late era -Skip a few]

[yuonyuon]

garbage alert !!

[sonnet]

you should have continued this in the other thread or via pm.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Ebs's "OPINION" that Vipman was not "HERE" is not valid enough for you subbing him instead.

Ebs is the faction owner, so his opinion on should sub him is more important than mine or yours (or the ones of the admin), because he needs to trust the one who's subbing him. But this was not the issue anyway. But again, I didn't ask nor I wanted to sub him, I forced everyone to name a subber, because last time I tried (last year in the all human HS) this idea, no one actually followed it.
So this time I enforced it so that everyone had a subber in case we needed. But in any case, whatever, what did I gain by subbing the Moors exactly? Because you keep talking like if I gained something from it.

2. If you played before Tonno subbed you should have posted the save. If you couldn't post it then you should have posted a message asking for a delay. OH WAIT YOU DEMANDED WE PLAY ON TIME OR BE SUBBED.

I already wrote in the morning to hold on. How may times should I have written it so that you or others had it clear?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053603656
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053603659

3. I know what you said to me, Dur3x, and Makrell. Knowing you, one can infer how you've talked to others.

You're being evasive. I offered Makrell military support(as I had troops in excess),to capture some Cumans settlement in exchange for 5k per settlement. That deal was made on turn 1. And it's not like it's damaged you: you're still fighting the Mongols and Kiev eventually would have got there before you. So I really don't see how I fooled you. I didn't keep the settlement.
But again, you do realize that what happens in game should stay in game? Or that is not clear to you?

4. A Cuman city is part of Cuman territory. What part of "Then I'm planning on going thru the Cumans. . . " didn't you understand?

What part of "I didn't keep the settlement" is not clear to you, but only offered military support (or more like mercenary for the Kievans) to Kiev ?

5. After you first captured it it flipped back to AI control. And since you know so much about the game you should've known that would happen.

Why do you keep talking about things you don't know? I warned Kiev to bring units, and he had 2 turns to do that.
Other than that, it was an unlucky event. Since you want to talk about the mechanic, it usually takes 3 turns (with red public order) to flip back to AI. Again : this is in-game situation. Why do you bring that up?

6. Prove it with proper screen shots including ones showing your treasury before and after and allow the admin to look at your saves. I'll tell them in a PM what I'm looking for.

I don't need to prove more than I posted. Try the game yourself: when you sack a city about 25% of population (might slightly change depending on chivalry traits of the general) gets reduced. Everyone can try it. It's the mechanic. .
Admin can look at my save (but actually what you're asking wont prove anything, is what I showed you that prove beyond any doubt that I didn't sack the city). I posted you ss from first turn (turn when i got constantinople) with Constantinople having 21k population.And I posted ss from turn later showing the ss with population still the same.

7. same as 6

You're making things up. Funny part is that I proved your claims wrong, and you still didn't prove (because you can't, as I proved you wrong) in any way how I sacked Constantinople.
Looking at population reduction is the way you know if a settlement has been occupied (no change) ,sacked (25% reduction in population) or exterminated (-75%). And you still have to explain how all that have anything to do with things that are not in-game.

8. Actually you were the first to propose disbanding Jihad armies https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053601029 If a human player chooses ERE. Of course, you already looked at the save and realized I, like an idiot, would do the honorable thing and disband my army. Leaving you a clear path to the Constantinople.

I had 4 armies in the area. Other than the fact that you couldn't take Constantinople with one stack (I used 2 and they were barely enough, and I posted the ss in my first post, so you couldn't have taken it). But what's the point of it?
I had more advantages than you in keeping the jihad armies, as I had 2 and you had one. Even if you somehow managed to capture it, I could have taken back on turn 3. Mate everyone can check the saves.
What went in consideration was that Hungary had 4 jihad armies nearby. I could have used them to anticipate Hungary on everything.
Like I said, with 4 turks stacks in the area (2 in Nicaea and 2 in Constantinople), your army was not an issue.
Moors would have sacked some Hungarian city (as it was not convenient to bring it back considering the number of turns required) like Panic did in the HS organized by @Core-i7-inside and in which you played when you replaced Stouff with Egypt. Look at that HS and see how he Scottish armies acted on the first turns of the HS by sacking Egypt's settlements (Tonno and Jiub also played in it). It was not fair to Hungary.
But the funny part is that I proposed the disbanding of the jihad armies only if Lord Luke chose ERE:

-Jihad armies have to be disbanded, if the player of Hungary/ERE block chooses ERE.

And that's obvious since we shouldn't have taken Constantinople from Lord Luka if he chose ERE with Jihad armies (since Jihad are forbidden in the first 8 turns by the rules)
It was later Lord Luka who confirmed he wanted the jihad armies disbanded even if choosing Hungary
Now are can you be honest with yourself and admit you're wrong?

9. No it's not a good price for a city. ten turns minimum is a fair price and you could not have afforded that being in debt and not "sacking" constantinople.

You're not getting that with 4 stacks I can take Constantinople from you without asking your permission or paying you for it
And since I sold the settlements (or better my rights to them) for 5k, you're saying that I should have asked more than 5k, confirming that I was generous with Egypt in taking only 5k.

10. No, my judgement is driven by the fact that I let you play me like a fool.

All the things you mentioned are game-related. People in-game do whatever they want. So I guess you want to kick out @Jiub , @Gaius Octavius Caesar and @Core-i7-inside too? Or that's valid only when it affect your interests?

You're mistaking (on purpose or not) everything: I didn't want war with you. You lied and betrayed me. And I didn't complain.
You have your own reason and convenience and I don't blame you for that.
I attacked Egypt, because he didn't keep his word about helping the Moors and when I felt Egypt might not keep the NAP, I have struck first, or else I could'e end up like HRE. I had my infos.
As also I knew from the start that you and Dur3x planned on eliminating me in 20 turns from now.
So don't talk about fooling. I knew you were lying to me in-game and yet I have no grudges about you.

But again those things happened in-game , and you are supposed to understand the difference.

[yuonyuon]

Constantinople was occupied like you all can see in this SS . and could be taken easily from the first turn without the jihad armies . there was at least 1.5 stack and 2 siege weapons . so that is not a problem ,from the rule point of view.

[Emproment]

Look at all the garbage being written... or don't.

So, who's turn is it?

[sonnet]

In case @dur3x doesn't want to keep playing, @LooseCannon1 given the situation should manage Egypt (unless he prefer Yuonyuon doing that,which would be convenient since Castille comes right after Egypt), and he can do that until someone else gets eliminated and want tot try Egypt (if still alive).
Although managing 2 factions, as I'd be the one affected (and I don't mind) there's no problem for me.
As they're in the same war together it seems the most logical thing and won't really change the dynamic

[yuonyuon]

In case @dur3x doesn't want to keep playing, @LooseCannon1 given the situation should manage Egypt (unless he prefer Yuonyuon doing that,which would be convenient since Castille comes right after Egypt), and he can do that until someone else gets eliminated and want tot try Egypt (if still alive).
Although managing 2 factions, as I'd be the one affected (and I don't mind) there's no problem for me.
As they're in the same war together it seems the most logical thing and won't really change the dynamic

your new save didn t change much , you still going to loose 2 stacks Smyrna , Acre and Jerusalem .

in case you didn t notice durex already played his turn . why you should have this huge extension like 48 hour and we have to rush our turns in 15 minutes .

you don t get it there are some rules here . you have to deal with them .

rules that are broken

-Delays: players who play who takes more than 20 minutes (and if it's not skipped) from the time-slot of the next player (the one published it here) will be fined with: 2k, if the faction has 5 or less than 5 regions., 5k if the faction has 15 or less regions, 10k if the faction has 25 or less regions, 15k if the faction has more than 25 regions. Half of such fine will be refund to the player who was subtracted the money, if he still manages to play his turn within his time schedule .

Remember that once you upload save and ss ,they're to be considered final (it means you cannot replay the save changing the battles you fought due to agreements reached after the save has been posted)

- Turns must be played within your time schedule. No extension will be granted for no reason . If you can't play your turn, pls organize your subbing or you might be skipped. A player who fail to play twice in a row without explanation might be substituted.

When discrepancies will arise or aspects not covered by the rules above, the Admin on its total own discretion will rule out about such cases.
If you believe someone might have broken the rules, you should not post it publicly! Pm first to the admins who will first investigate on the matter.
If the breaking of the rules is confirmed, then it'll be the admin to report it publicly along with the appropriate fine/punishment.

[sonnet]

your new save didn t change much , you still going to loose 2 stacks Smyrna , Acre and Jerusalem .

If that's true (that the new save doesn't change anything) then you and Dur3x should have no problem, and I'm truly glad to hear that

About the delay: I asked Tonno and eveybody to stop playing in the morning and yesterday afternoon. And Myth wrote me by pm that I would get the save with passwords changed by Nightbringer, leading me to believe to wait.
I posted evidence of everything in previous posts. And I still played the old save in time, so I got no advantage neither in time or by seeing Egypt's turn (since I played it much earlier than that)

[Nightbringer]

I'm sorry sonnet, I should have let you know that we had decided against changing the passwords because of dur3x's return. Myth and myself are currently discussing the matter but I think we are going to put it to a private vote by the players who would need to replay their turns.
@dur3x @Lord Luka @yuonyuon @Tonno

Could you send me a pm with a clear yes/no vote on whether you are okay with replaying your turns from Sonnet's save.

[sonnet]

I'm sorry sonnet, I should have let you know that we had decided against changing the passwords because of dur3x's return. Myth and myself are currently discussing the matter but I think we are going to put it to a private vote by the players who would need to replay their turns.
@dur3x @Lord Luka @yuonyuon @Tonno

Could you send me a pm with a clear yes/no vote on whether you are okay with replaying your turns from Sonnet's save.

@Nightbringer & @Myth
The players who should replay are @dur3x @yuonyuon @Tonno and @Emproment. (not Lord Luka)
And obviously Dur3x and Yuonyuon being my enemies will vote no. You're letting things be decided by how many enemies I have in game. Doesn't seem logic or fair.
And following which logic, should I pay for your mistake? (to not let me know?)

[Emproment]

I do not get a vote? I have already played my turn...

EDIT: Sonnet said it first.

[yuonyuon]

If that's true (that the new save doesn't change anything) then you and Dur3x should have no problem.

About the delay: I asked Tonno and eveybody to stop playing in the morning and yesterday afternoon. And Myth wrote me by pm that I would get the save with passwords changed by Nightbringer, leading me to believe to wait.
I posted evidence of everything. And I still played the old save in time, so I got no advantage neither in time or by seeing Egypt's turn (since I played it much earlier than that)

how can you stop this HS for a simple issue . maybe one day i will hold this HS for a week when i will go in a vacation, trust me i will play again but since tomorrow is a new week i barely have these 2 hours window every day . so durex is not here , that means i will play tomorrow night , for what ?
i looked at the turn earlier and and it looks like you trying hard but that suppose to be a fast passe HS , but not for you , you have to play HARDCORE . but guess, what you forget to put spies in that fort . then you will request another reply

i m not replaying my turn , also another 3 player must replay because of you

[yuonyuon]

@Nightbringer & @Myth
The players who should replay are @dur3x @yuonyuon @Tonno and @Emproment. (not Lord Luka)
And obviously Dur3x and Yuonyuon being my enemies will vote no. You're letting things be decided by how many enemies I have in game. Doesn't seem logic or fair.
And following which logic, should I pay for your mistake? (to not let me know?)

there are 2 types of logic , one of interest and one of the truth . which one?

[Tonno]

there are 2 types of logic , one of interest and one of the truth . which one?

No, there's only one type of logic... the one that uses reasoning. But, you can use logic for false conclusions as well, so the question is do we seek truth or just what suits us.

I was bored, had to reply.

[yuonyuon]

No, there's only one type of logic... the one that uses reasoning. But, you can use logic for false conclusions as well, so the question is do we seek truth or just what suits us.

I was bored, had to reply.

i guess that is off topic :)))

i prefer Admin logic since he has no gain in this game.

[Vipman]

@Loose Well then, you've made me to lose respect for you as well then, I thought you were better, but it truly seems you just plainly hate invicta and once you got an opportunity you joined the bandwagon of throwing accusations. When you had that fight with invicta in Retrofit 2 HS and left the hotseat and then not replying to my PMs where I asked you to please give me the admin password to continue the hotseat, I didn't like it at all then, but as time passed I let it go, and for what, only for you to strike back now and show your hate for him. I'm really disappointed.

As for the subber business when we had to choose the official subber I came a bit late to it and most people chose one and among those that weren't appointed already I wasn't eager on asking anyone of them of subbing me and I just said to myself I'll have to play all my turns then. At last me and ebs were left and invicta asked if we're ok if we appoint each other as subber, I was like yeah whatever, and I figure ebs was probably the same as when he needed subbing he asked who he wanted. It's true anyway I became more inactive for personal reasons and have lost much interest in everything related to TWC and the hotseat here as well, and all that's happening here sure ain't helping, but still I don't want to just give up on everything, I'll just have to gather myself up eventually.

[LooseCannon1]

@Loose Well then, you've made me to lose respect for you as well then, I thought you were better, but it truly seems you just plainly hate invicta and once you got an opportunity you joined the bandwagon of throwing accusations. When you had that fight with invicta in Retrofit 2 HS and left the hotseat and then not replying to my PMs where I asked you to please give me the admin password to continue the hotseat, I didn't like it at all then, but as time passed I let it go, and for what, only for you to strike back now and show your hate for him. I'm really disappointed.

You want to bring up Retrofit 2 again. Allright, let's bring it up. Invicta insulted me and another player (I think it was you, maybe not) in the thread. Claimed he was doing it "in character" so no harm was meant. But it wasn't As the admin it was my duty to eject him from the game for abusing other players. Then he started a revolt against me and you got the admin password from Izob. And what did invicta do? HE QUIT

Izob apologized to me later for giving it to you once he read the whole story. I let it go when he insulted me again when he came back and started up at TWC this summer.

As for the subber business when we had to choose the official subber I came a bit late to it and most people chose one and among those that weren't appointed already I wasn't eager on asking anyone of them of subbing me and I just said to myself I'll have to play all my turns then. At last me and ebs were left and invicta asked if we're ok if we appoint each other as subber, I was like yeah whatever, and I figure ebs was probably the same as when he needed subbing he asked who he wanted. It's true anyway I became more inactive for personal reasons and have lost much interest in everything related to TWC and the hotseat here as well, and all that's happening here sure ain't helping, but still I don't want to just give up on everything, I'll just have to gather myself up eventually.

Fine, but what happened on the turn in question. Invicta has posted a PM from ebs where ebs says "I see Vipman is not here". Was there a problem preventing you from subbing that time? What was it? We only know that invicta subbed him after he posted the save. And when he played the Moors they were left in a bad position while threatening Castile. So Castile stomped the Moors. Why weren't you there to sub ebs?

Do you want to know why Emproment and I sub each other? We live in the same time zone, we play at the same time on different day, and we're on opposite sides of the map. Quality of play has nothing to do with it. As long as we do our best, I'm satisfied.

Invicta has refused to follow the rules he created for this game. That is all that really matters.

[Emproment]

No Loose, what really matters is the admin's decision on which route to take during this speed-bump.

@Myth and @Nightbringer, I hope a consensus is reached soon. Picking the lesser of two evils does not matter as much as simply getting this HS rolling again regardless of which choice is made.

Let's just choose one and be done with it so we can continue this HS.

[Nightbringer]

sorry about the mix up emproment. I'm still waiting to hear from @yuonyuon, and myth has been away from his comp. We should be able to get this resolved tomorrow.

[ebs]

Does it matter who is sub me?When I ask someone to do?We saying its good to have official subber so to be fast HS.. when I was looking to someone sub me only sonnet was here.. the first choice must be my official subber right ? but he was OFF then admins right?They also was oFF.. and I ask from Sonnet to sub me what is the problem here?This is not rule breaking.. rule breaking will be when I dont playing.. my subber its here.. admins also here and Sonnet ask me to sub me or something like this..
So admins must be concentrated to decision to continue with the Sonnet save or with the Tonno save..
Also younyoun its dont break any rule when he is attack me.. we dont have deal he is see that he have good chance to destroy my armies and he is do.. this is war game... we will have wars we will have ceasfires etc. I also understadn the Sonnet point in this case but at the end this the war game like a say..

So pls close this case.. we are now in peace we have NAP everything its OK we dont need to continiue to speaking for this!

Sorry for my bad English I hope everyone is understand what I trying to say!!!

[Tonno]

You want to bring up Retrofit 2 again. Allright, let's bring it up. Invicta insulted me and another player (I think it was you, maybe not) in the thread. Claimed he was doing it "in character" so no harm was meant. But it wasn't As the admin it was my duty to eject him from the game for abusing other players. Then he started a revolt against me and you got the admin password from Izob. And what did invicta do? HE QUIT

I don't remember of that spacial case. But in general:
You saw how I called Tavix and Jiub here. To be right on the spot, I called Tavix a coward (and it was far from "in character"). It can look like a straight up insult on someones personality, since I don't know who he is, how he acts, what he does.
What's the difference: his play, his move was cowardice ( just to be clear I understand their resons, but I still claim they are wrong). I judged that, not him nor his persona. That's why he was right, he doesn't have to explain to me his moves. ( He'll have to answer to God, HA!)

I knew from TWC that some people put their egos on wrong places, that's why I called core pig-dog in my EMPEROR speeches, I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean anything.
So, when you play badly in a HS, and I call you a lying dog... it's a means of taunting. When I send you a PM with a insult on your nature, that's not taunting.

PS
Ebs, don't worry, that case is closed.

[Gaius Octavius Caesar]

I don't remember of that spacial case. But in general:
You saw how I called Tavix and Jiub here. To be right on the spot, I called Tavix a coward (and it was far from "in character"). It can look like a straight up insult on someones personality, since I don't know who he is, how he acts, what he does.
What's the difference: his play, his move was cowardice ( just to be clear I understand their resons, but I still claim they are wrong). I judged that, not him nor his persona. That's why he was right, he doesn't have to explain to me his moves. ( He'll have to answer to God, HA!)

I knew from TWC that some people put their egos on wrong places, that's why I called core pig-dog in my EMPEROR speeches, I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean anything.
So, when you play badly in a HS, and I call you a lying dog... it's a means of taunting. When I send you a PM with a insult on your nature, that's not taunting.

PS
Ebs, don't worry, that case is closed.

Let not say coward, i prefer opportunist .

I didnt knew that Venice was gonna atack you. I had to make a choice, atack or not. And i chose the 1st.

[Myth]

Just to clarify. Invicta states that he posted his save within his time frame. If that is indeed the case then there is no need for us to use the version where he has been subbed. Technically both are valid, but I prefer for each player to be able to lead their faction.

He expected a cleared save for Egypt and we didn't provide it, since it turned out that Dur3x intended to play. I believe that more than a few of the issues with this game are due to poor communication between the players involved, as well as between the players and the admins. Me being on vacation and getting 8 PMs per day didn't help either.

Here is what I think:

Dur3x continues as Egypt.
We use the save which Invicta posted as he didn't really need subbing and was delayed because he waited for an answer from myself and Nightbringer.
Everyone shuts up and stops bringing up old drama both from this game and from previous games and you all try to have fun and win some battles in Med 2 and not in Forum Warrior 2.

I'm ignoring the bickering because I understand that everyone involved is getting emotional, so let's all calm down and look to a good game from today onward.

[yuonyuon]

Just to clarify. Invicta states that he posted his save within his time frame. If that is indeed the case then there is no need for us to use the version where he has been subbed. Technically both are valid, but I prefer for each player to be able to lead their faction.

He expected a cleared save for Egypt and we didn't provide it, since it turned out that Dur3x intended to play. I believe that more than a few of the issues with this game are due to poor communication between the players involved, as well as between the players and the admins. Me being on vacation and getting 8 PMs per day didn't help either.

Here is what I think:

Dur3x continues as Egypt.
We use the save which Invicta posted as he didn't really need subbing and was delayed because he waited for an answer from myself and Nightbringer.
Everyone shuts up and stops bringing up old drama both from this game and from previous games and you all try to have fun and win some battles in Med 2 and not in Forum Warrior 2.

I'm ignoring the bickering because I understand that everyone involved is getting emotional, so let's all calm down and look to a good game from today onward.

nobody wants to reply his turn because he had 48 hours window , we are 4 players that we must reply ,
sonnet must obey the rules that he made . no exception . i think you misunderstood the situation.

[Tonno]

nobody wants to reply his turn because he had 48 hours window , we are 4 players that we must reply ,
sonnet must obey the rules that he made . no exception . i think you misunderstood the situation.

"When discrepancies will arise or aspects not covered by the rules above, the Admin on its total own discretion will rule out about such cases."
-that's one of the rules he must obey.
Even you quoted that rule.

@Myth
To get the final verdict, do we continue or replay with Sonnet's save?

[yuonyuon]

"When discrepancies will arise or aspects not covered by the rules above, the Admin on its total own discretion will rule out about such cases."
-that's one of the rules he must obey.
Even you quoted that rule.

@Myth
To get the final verdict, do we continue or replay with Sonnet's save?

, me durex and loose we are not replaying(continue) any turn if this is going to happen , this is phatethic . what i think was happened , that Myth don t know the situation clearly because of hundreds of messages from sonnet .

Nightbringer told us to vote , i can t see any "replay" or "reloading" in Myth post .

[Emproment]

Here is what I think:

Dur3x continues as Egypt.
We use the save which Invicta posted as he didn't really need subbing and was delayed because he waited for an answer from myself and Nightbringer.

This is where the decision was made.

We use Sonnet's save and the sooner we do it the faster we all get to play.

[Lord Luka]

Dur3x continues as Egypt.
We use the save which Invicta posted as he didn't really need subbing and was delayed because he waited for an answer from myself and Nightbringer.
Everyone shuts up and stops bringing up old drama both from this game and from previous games and you all try to have fun and win some battles in Med 2 and not in Forum Warrior 2.

I'm ignoring the bickering because I understand that everyone involved is getting emotional, so let's all calm down and look to a good game from today onward.

If Invicta waited an answer from an admin i don't think any discussion is needed.We replay from his save.It says in the rules that any doubtfull situations should be PM'd to the admin and not posted on the forum so as far as that goes he did as he was supposed to.

[yuonyuon]

If Invicta waited an answer from an admin i don't think any discussion is needed.We replay from his save.It says in the rules that any doubtfull situations should be PM'd to the admin and not posted on the forum so as far as that goes he did as he was supposed to.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053603817
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053603301

you can read this messages and see that he was off . there was no waiting for the admin . he was in a holiday .

[LooseCannon1]

Just to clarify. Invicta states that he posted his save within his time frame. If that is indeed the case then there is no need for us to use the version where he has been subbed. Technically both are valid, but I prefer for each player to be able to lead their faction.

He expected a cleared save for Egypt and we didn't provide it, since it turned out that Dur3x intended to play. I believe that more than a few of the issues with this game are due to poor communication between the players involved, as well as between the players and the admins. Me being on vacation and getting 8 PMs per day didn't help either.

Here is what I think:

Dur3x continues as Egypt.
We use the save which Invicta posted as he didn't really need subbing and was delayed because he waited for an answer from myself and Nightbringer.
Everyone shuts up and stops bringing up old drama both from this game and from previous games and you all try to have fun and win some battles in Med 2 and not in Forum Warrior 2.

I'm ignoring the bickering because I understand that everyone involved is getting emotional, so let's all calm down and look to a good game from today onward.

Sorry, invicta posted on TWC that he would be unable to play any turns until Sunday July 20th. He knew Tonno would have to sub him on July 16th and he must accept how the subbing turned out.

[Nightbringer]

I asked for a vote because I wanted to get a feel for where people were without all the bickering. I got it, but still agree with myth's ruling that we should got back and play from this save. I understand it is frustrating to have to redo a turn, but please lets just try to give everyone a pass on this one. There was a lot of confused communication (on everyone's, including my, part) and debating it forever is only going to make things worse. Things will be back on track in no time. If a situation about subbing comes up again, this won't serve as a precedent. We will evaluate that issue based on its own circumstances, just as we did here.