State of the Game

[al Roumi]

I never had no trouble with realm divide. I knew how to mange it, I understood why it happened, I knew when it would happen, and I knew what to do about it.

I've had on numerous occasions allies who stayed that way post RD till I had won. I've had hundreds of vassals stay on my side that I created post RD.

All those who would declare themselves worthy of becoming Shogun should prove it in Total War.

Really? I can honestly say I've never managed to do that - hence my sense that at RD everyone simply goes mad (with some reason and empirical evidence). It would make total war a little less total if I could setup vassal buffer states... Did you have to do anything other than be friendly/allied for a long time? i.e. bribe them every turn? I must return to the Dojo and focus on my lessons.

R2 on the other hand, I've got dozens of people who can't be bothered to trade or talk to me for the entire campaign, to say that "it works" as well or better than S2 diplo baffles me

I think in R2 the system struggles when there aren't many indicators racking up on either side (be it like/dislike), as the AI can be quite complacent. In some cases you might be able to sweaten a deal (the initial one most importantly perhaps - to get the "likes" ratcheting up) with a bribe but it's fair to say that unless you follow the progression of agreements that Slaists mentions, the AI won't be interested.

Starting relationships off seems the hardest part in R2. I'd say it's also rare that erstwhile enemies become friends/allies. Often the easiest way to be start building a friendly relationship with a faction is to have mutual enemies, declaring war (as a diplomatic measure alone!) is always possible: no one can say "no".

I'd say you'll always have factions miles away who are disinterested in you and maybe minor factions with not much to trade too. Generaly, a large AI faction (with trade resources) will be happy to trade once you are friendly enough.

[easytarget]

Really? I can honestly say I've never managed to do that - hence my sense that at RD everyone simply goes mad (with some reason and empirical evidence). It would make total war a little less total if I could setup vassal buffer states... Did you have to do anything other than be friendly/allied for a long time? i.e. bribe them every turn? I must return to the Dojo and focus on my lessons.

Well, the vassal part is really pretty straightforward, you just turn them after RD. I do it because once RD starts I lose all my trade partners and need a revenue stream. But I also vassalize because I don't have to leave an army behind to stabilize it and I don't have to waste money fixing the place back up. It's almost comical they give me a unit for free to boot.

That said, these guys will not stay with you forever, so you better be primed with your army for a medium speed blitzkrieg and have a plan of attack where you are going. This is not a casual walk in the park, it's Sherman heading to the sea. Since I often start this push in the immediate vicinity of Kyoto because I hold off taking that till after RD kicks in, I do also create a decent size standing army there that can "persuade" vassals that change their mind to come back into the fold.

As for allies that stayed with me post RD, that one is also pretty straightforward, but it does require a bit of planning and some luck. Early on in the campaign you have to pick who you are going to trade with and stick with for the long term, if you choose wisely and select one of the clans that tends to survive to the end having been with them in an alliance for the entire campaign they will hold out for awhile post RD. Like the vassal strategy above, time is not on your side, you do need to get on it once RD kicks in.

Which is why the last part of the strategy to handle RD involves moving right up to the line where it kicks in (watch fame) and stopping short to prepare, collect some money and build armies, so the final push can be one constant effort. And yes, bribing does help forestall losing vassals or allies, but ultimately only for awhile. Money though it always a handy thing to have, so it is good to have a pile handy, I love buying a stack from the enemy as a recruitment mechanism once the push is on.

[al Roumi]

... these guys will not stay with you forever, so you better be primed with your army for a medium speed blitzkrieg and have a plan of attack where you are going...

Early on in the campaign you have to pick who you are going to trade with and stick with for the long term, if you choose wisely and select one of the clans that tends to survive to the end having been with them in an alliance for the entire campaign they will hold out for awhile post RD. Like the vassal strategy above, time is not on your side, you do need to get on it once RD kicks in.

Thanks - that's actually what I have seen and experienced. But for me, given the eventual/inevitable betrayal and the time it takes to meet the victory tally for provinces (I prefer long campaigns) I actually find it easier to do without bad allies.

I prep up to the line for RD, but then try to ensure post RD battles and the main effort takes place on Honshu, as an irressistable wave moving up/down the island - culminating around Kyoto. I try to have at least 1 army per road/route and guard the flanks at sea with navies to prevent landings in my rear, which avoids having reserve stacks and allows me to focus on the front. I find vacilating allies/vassals and their trade would only complicate the issue and the cost of defense against them would outweigh the revenue which they'd generate.

[easytarget]

I find vacilating allies/vassals and their trade would only complicate the issue and the cost of defense against them would outweigh the revenue which they'd generate.

More than one way to skin a cat, which is why these games are fun.

That said, I think at least one campaign you should try it my way. You only need 2 maybe 3 stacks. Remember, my way no one is left behind to guard anything, so no resources militarily are lost no matter how many provinces you take or how fast you take them. I can easily take half a dozen a year this way. And if I'm at all elegant about my planning and leave a vassal an opening, they take provinces too. There's no cost to defense here, this is all offense with trade partners created just as a freebie side benefit.

And there are no bad allies, because really there are no allies in TW in the traditional sense of the word, there are only allies of temporary convenience.

When your ultimate goal is the subjugation of the map, everyone is simply part of my plan

[easytarget]

I think in R2 the system struggles when there aren't many indicators racking up on either side (be it like/dislike), as the AI can be quite complacent. In some cases you might be able to sweaten a deal (the initial one most importantly perhaps - to get the "likes" ratcheting up) with a bribe but it's fair to say that unless you follow the progression of agreements that Slaists mentions, the AI won't be interested.

Starting relationships off seems the hardest part in R2. I'd say it's also rare that erstwhile enemies become friends/allies. Often the easiest way to be start building a friendly relationship with a faction is to have mutual enemies, declaring war (as a diplomatic measure alone!) is always possible: no one can say "no".

I'd say you'll always have factions miles away who are disinterested in you and maybe minor factions with not much to trade too. Generaly, a large AI faction (with trade resources) will be happy to trade once you are friendly enough.

Ok, well, I'll try and just be patient about this, but so far in the campaign this is the pattern I see. Whenever I encounter anyone new the starting position they assume is hostile. And I can't establish trade with them to demonstrate I'm OK, the small or even medium size bribes I offer (I'm not swimming in money here as it's the early part of the campaign) make no difference, they give me their same stupid speeches (which btw I find 100x more annoying than anything I've ever been exposed to a thousand times in a TW game).

So, I've got a dozen or so people I could carry on diplomacy with and NONE of them will even talk to me. This game mechanic at the point I'm at initially in this campaign is as broken as the politics module I completely ignore with no consequence. At least in S2 the clans started with the assumption initially I should not be immediately hated and I traded with just about everyone I encountered at the outset, then as events advanced I and others showed their true colors and things would unravel with some and strengthen with others.

I don't get it. If I'm to participate in the game through these systems by making choices, hopefully meaningful ones, I have to be allowed to do something, I can't get these guys to even talk to me.

[al Roumi]

Ok, well, I'll try and just be patient about this, but so far in the campaign this is the pattern I see.

Is this a Rome campaign? I think i've experienced the same, at least especially to start with - particularly from the barbarians to the north, east, west and south, er, everyone bar Syracuse... Things are at their worst at the beginning because everyone is (mostly) neutral. Start a war with someone Do some Clausewitzian diplomacy and their enemies should be friendly to you.

[easytarget]

Is this a Rome campaign? I think i've experienced the same, at least especially to start with - particularly from the barbarians to the north, east, west and south, er, everyone bar Syracuse... Things are at their worst at the beginning because everyone is (mostly) neutral. Start a war with someone Do some Clausewitzian diplomacy and their enemies should be friendly to you.

Yes, this is our dear friends the Romans, or to my neighbors, the guy everyone loves to hate. Ok, duly noted, start some wars, make some enemies, enemy of my enemy is my friend. I'm busy down south working to kick Carthage off the map, that will of course instantly put me at war w/ their two proxies. And for good measure the Greeks decided to throw down the gauntlet, first Sparta for no reason, then Athens just because Sparta did.

So if the key to friends is making enemies I'm well on my way to collecting a raft load of Christmas cards come the holidays.