If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public school

[ICantSpellDawg]

But somehow, you fully support peoples 'right' to FORCE me not to get vaccinated.

What? Although you are able to be vaccinated, thus reducing the likelihood that you will not contract disease x - the decision of another not to get vaccinated is the equivalent of FORCING you not to get vaccinated?

My issue with modern political arguments is that they are not really arguments for good ideas - they are arguments for the forcible compulsion of those good ideas on others.

This is exacly why the GOP voters have sent defensive linemen into Congress. We need to ensure that you go nowhere with the ball.

Focus your energy on helpful encouragement and the spread of good ideas through fair play and you will have a supporter.

[HoreTore]

What?

You want to give my parents the right to force me not to get vaccinated.

I would rather give the state the right to force me to get vaccinated.

[Papewaio]

Statistics from the recent Welsh measles outbreak:
"In the outbreak children who were unvaccinated had a chance of catching measles of around 1 in 18 (6,812/371), children who were partly vaccinated had a chance of catching measles of around 1 in 750 (14,219/19) and children who were fully vaccinated had a chance of catching measles of around 1 in 2,200 (68,825/31). This shows that 2 doses of MMR were over 99% effective in protecting against measles and 1 dose of MMR was over 97% effective in protecting against measles."

http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/do...T%20REPORT.doc

1400 measles notifications, 88 people were hospitalized and one died.

So the 95% number is the wrong way round and even with modern medicine and fast responses in a first world country a relatively small outbreak can be fatal.

[Fisherking]

Pap, I am not anti-vaccine. What I am is pro-liberty. If a person wishes to opt out they should have the right to do so. I did not post a link because the cited material could be classed as ant-vaccine and I could not locate the cited CDC figures for verification.

But in the defense of those who would opt out, after the government assuring us that those not wishing to be vaccinated are all just crazies and all the vaccines are safe, they did pass a little piece of legislation, The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986. The act exempt pharmaceutical manufactures and the healthcare industry from damage claims for vaccine related conditions. Further, the FDA, CDC and vaccine makers openly state that often the number of human subjects used in pre-licensing studies are too small to detect rarer adverse events, making post-marketing surveillance of new vaccines a de facto scientific experiment. In this regard, the ethical principle of informed consent to vaccination attains even greater importance


The remedy for injury is to sue the federal government in federal court before a federal judge, and that can take years once you have received standing to sue, and after you prove your case the government then has a second court adjudicate the compensation.

Of the cases won in court two out of three still receive no compensation. But even after all of those high hurdles have been cleared there has been approximately $3 billion awarded. Obviously there is real and genuine reason for concern.

The law also is to provide parents with vaccine benefit and risk information before their children are vaccinated, but I have been unable to find any real data or analyses published by the government or anyone else other than anti-vaccine sites.

But perhaps you can do better.

If I recall correctly, when my children were vaccinated minutes before the procedure I was handed a paper about 3 inches wide and 3 and a half feet long, printed on both sides in print so fine a magnifying glass was required to read it, which may have contained that information, but not in any usable form.

If that is not enough to raise a healthy skepticism in most everyone, I don’t know what would.

[Papewaio]

Pap, I am not anti-vaccine. What I am is pro-liberty. If a person wishes to opt out they should have the right to do so. I did not post a link because the cited material could be classed as ant-vaccine and I could not locate the cited CDC figures for verification.

But in the defense of those who would opt out, after the government assuring us that those not wishing to be vaccinated are all just crazies and all the vaccines are safe, they did pass a little piece of legislation, The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986. The act exempt pharmaceutical manufactures and the healthcare industry from damage claims for vaccine related conditions. Further, the FDA, CDC and vaccine makers openly state that often the number of human subjects used in pre-licensing studies are too small to detect rarer adverse events, making post-marketing surveillance of new vaccines a de facto scientific experiment. In this regard, the ethical principle of informed consent to vaccination attains even greater importance


The remedy for injury is to sue the federal government in federal court before a federal judge, and that can take years once you have received standing to sue, and after you prove your case the government then has a second court adjudicate the compensation.

Of the cases won in court two out of three still receive no compensation. But even after all of those high hurdles have been cleared there has been approximately $3 billion awarded. Obviously there is real and genuine reason for concern.

The law also is to provide parents with vaccine benefit and risk information before their children are vaccinated, but I have been unable to find any real data or analyses published by the government or anyone else other than anti-vaccine sites.

But perhaps you can do better.

If I recall correctly, when my children were vaccinated minutes before the procedure I was handed a paper about 3 inches wide and 3 and a half feet long, printed on both sides in print so fine a magnifying glass was required to read it, which may have contained that information, but not in any usable form.

If that is not enough to raise a healthy skepticism in most everyone, I don’t know what would.

I have a healthy skepticism and I also do not believe in absolute solutions. I do believe vaccines will improve over time.

But to me vaccines are not just an individuals health it is community health.

I'm not pro people's choice to the put they endanger the community. That applies both to people born and incorporated.

At least in Aus scheduled vaccines are free. Most companies will pay for flu shots (I don't bother with those)

[Fisherking]

I have a healthy skepticism and I also do not believe in absolute solutions. I do believe vaccines will improve over time.

But to me vaccines are not just an individuals health it is community health.

I'm not pro people's choice to the put they endanger the community. That applies both to people born and incorporated.

At least in Aus scheduled vaccines are free. Most companies will pay for flu shots (I don't bother with those)

Oh yes, I am sure you are right. Individual human rights are bad for the group. We should work for the greater good of all humanity and eliminate those dissenting voices. We must take to heart those lessons given us by the governments who championed this ethic and their great leaders; Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and others.

Oh my, on second thought you can travel with that crew but I don’t choose to.

The forced compliance of such mandates is not the hallmark of a free people or a government that represents them.

It may suite you to live in an authoritarian state where the government tells you what is best and what to believe but I will fight against it as long as I can.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh yes, I am sure you are right. Individual human rights are bad for the group. We should work for the greater good of all humanity and eliminate those dissenting voices. We must take to heart those lessons given us by the governments who championed this ethic and their great leaders; Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and others.

Oh my, on second thought you can travel with that crew but I don’t choose to.

The forced compliance of such mandates is not the hallmark of a free people or a government that represents them.

It may suite you to live in an authoritarian state where the government tells you what is best and what to believe but I will fight against it as long as I can.

The original proposition was that unvaccinated children should not be allowed to attend State Schools.

To understand why - consider the following case of two mothers in a City in the US, let's say NYC.

Mother #1 has three children aged 10, 6, and six months. The two older children have had the MMR, the youngest will hav it as soon as she is old enough.

Mother #2 has two children aged 8 and 10, she doesn't believe in vaccinations, so they haven't had the MMR.

The two 10-year olds are friends, Mother #2's child contracts Measles, and invites Mother #1's child around to play after school - at this point he is a-symptomatic. When Mother #1 comes to pick the child up later she brings the baby, and she has now been exposed to the virus. The 6-moth-old baby contracts Measles and ends up hospitalised.

Best case scenario now is that Mother #1 gets hit with hospital bills because America lacks a modern healthcare system, worst case scenario the child develops acute Measles and dies.

Now - take a Look at the CDC report for 2008:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5733a1.htm

"Washington. On April 28, 2008, the Washington State Department of Health received a report of several suspected measles cases in a Grant County household. The index patient had rash onset on April 12. During April 18--21, the other seven children in the household became ill with fever and rash. Three of the children developed pneumonia and were evaluated by a health-care provider who suspected measles; all three tested positive for measles-specific IgM antibody. Rash onset occurred during April 13--May 30 in 11 additional cases identified in Grant County. All of the 19 cases were linked epidemiologically, and all but one occurred in children and adolescents aged 9 months to 18 years. The 19 cases included 16 in school-aged children, among whom 11 were home schooled. Because of their parents' philosophical or religious beliefs, none of the 16 children had received measles-containing vaccine. Specimens from eight patients were submitted for virologic testing, and all contained genotype D5, which had been circulating in Japan and parts of Europe. A possible source of the outbreak was a church conference, held March 25--29 in King County, Washington, that was attended by four of the patients, including the index patient. The conference was attended by approximately 3,000 persons, primarily students from junior high through university age from 18 states, DC, and several foreign countries. None of these countries or states has since reported confirmed cases of measles among persons who attended this conference."

[Pannonian]

The original proposition was that unvaccinated children should not be allowed to attend State Schools.

To understand why - consider the following case of two mothers in a City in the US, let's say NYC.

Mother #1 has three children aged 10, 6, and six months. The two older children have had the MMR, the youngest will hav it as soon as she is old enough.

Mother #2 has two children aged 8 and 10, she doesn't believe in vaccinations, so they haven't had the MMR.

The two 10-year olds are friends, Mother #2's child contracts Measles, and invites Mother #1's child around to play after school - at this point he is a-symptomatic. When Mother #1 comes to pick the child up later she brings the baby, and she has now been exposed to the virus. The 6-moth-old baby contracts Measles and ends up hospitalised.

Best case scenario now is that Mother #1 gets hit with hospital bills because America lacks a modern healthcare system, worst case scenario the child develops acute Measles and dies.

Now - take a Look at the CDC report for 2008:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5733a1.htm

"Washington. On April 28, 2008, the Washington State Department of Health received a report of several suspected measles cases in a Grant County household. The index patient had rash onset on April 12. During April 18--21, the other seven children in the household became ill with fever and rash. Three of the children developed pneumonia and were evaluated by a health-care provider who suspected measles; all three tested positive for measles-specific IgM antibody. Rash onset occurred during April 13--May 30 in 11 additional cases identified in Grant County. All of the 19 cases were linked epidemiologically, and all but one occurred in children and adolescents aged 9 months to 18 years. The 19 cases included 16 in school-aged children, among whom 11 were home schooled. Because of their parents' philosophical or religious beliefs, none of the 16 children had received measles-containing vaccine. Specimens from eight patients were submitted for virologic testing, and all contained genotype D5, which had been circulating in Japan and parts of Europe. A possible source of the outbreak was a church conference, held March 25--29 in King County, Washington, that was attended by four of the patients, including the index patient. The conference was attended by approximately 3,000 persons, primarily students from junior high through university age from 18 states, DC, and several foreign countries. None of these countries or states has since reported confirmed cases of measles among persons who attended this conference."

I don't understand. Why do these viruses continue transmitting by taking advantage of people's belief in liberty and the right to choose? Do micro-organisms hate freedom?

[Papewaio]

Oh yes, I am sure you are right. Individual human rights are bad for the group. We should work for the greater good of all humanity and eliminate those dissenting voices. We must take to heart those lessons given us by the governments who championed this ethic and their great leaders; Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and others.

Oh my, on second thought you can travel with that crew but I don’t choose to.

The forced compliance of such mandates is not the hallmark of a free people or a government that represents them.

It may suite you to live in an authoritarian state where the government tells you what is best and what to believe but I will fight against it as long as I can.

Yes Australia is an authoritarian state you finally found out our dirty little secret.

For AU:
The federal government isn't mandating vaccines. It gives people free access to them.

What the state government schools and independent schools don't want to be is liable for spreading preventable diseases. So they mandate that to attend you need to have your vaccination schedule up to date.

As a lot of school children have younger sibilings to young to get injections it seems a sensible precaution when schools act as incubators to all sorts of illnesses. For instance hear in NSW the public school teachers get twenty paid sick days per annum because of the amount of bugs they get from the children. A more macroscopic version is the spread of nits and lice. Not all parents provide equal care to their children, but communicable diseases and pestilence don't care once they get kids sitting in a warm humid room shoulder to shoulder.

[HoreTore]

What? Although you are able to be vaccinated, thus reducing the likelihood that you will not contract disease x - the decision of another not to get vaccinated is the equivalent of FORCING you not to get vaccinated?

No, the children of parents who does not want vaccination are not able to get vaccinated.

Once again, I am talking of children while you are trying to build the strawman that we are talking about adults...