If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public school

[Fisherking]

Articles 1 and 2 are not 'rights'. Article 3 does not prohibit mandatory vaccination, and article 25 supports it.

The UDHR does not mean whatever you think it should mean. It means whatever the UN thinks it should mean, and the UN runs several mandatory vaccination programs.


Argue for 'liberty' all you want, but do not think the UDHR supports your position.

Article 25 says healthcare is a right. Article 3 is the first right. The first two set the stage as to what a right is. If a person has a right, the government can not infringe upon it.

Therefore no where in those two Rights does it give government the latitude to require people to do as they say.

You are reading what is not there. Having a right to care doesn’t mean against ones will. This limits government. It does not extend its control over the lives and bodies of the public.


edit: When government has the ability to force compliance with medical procedures this is what you get:http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S...0#.U7P14UBRx9N

You don’t have a right sometimes and other times not. If the government can make you take a vaccine they can make you take an anal probe.

[HoreTore]

Article 25 says healthcare is a right. Article 3 is the first right. The first two set the stage as to what a right is. If a person has a right, the government can not infringe upon it.

Therefore no where in those two Rights does it give government the latitude to require people to do as they say.

They certainly give the government the power to order parents. The UDHR mandates education for all, and so states are bound to mandate education regardless of the parents wishes. The same applies to healthcare, it is the governments responsibility to ensure healthcare for all, regardless of the parents wishes. The government has, according to the UDHR, the explicit responsibility to provide healthcare for children. Note that the article on education includes a note on parents' choice; the healthcare one does not.

Children's rights are further developed in their own convention, the convention on the rights of the child. Now, what does this one state? It states clearly that the government should ensure that children develop healthily. It's not "parents", and it's not "provide". It's the government's responsibility, and they should ensure it. Clarly, if a given vaccine is deemed necessary for the health of a child, it is the governments responsibility to ensure that the child recieves it. Parents have no authority to challenge the human rights of their children.

Feel free to argue for your version of liberty all you want, but refrain from bringing up the UDHR. It does not support your views, and it has an interpretation of liberty which differs from yours. The UN sees national governments, with the UN as arbiter, as the providers of the freedoms listed in the UDHR.

[Fisherking]

They certainly give the government the power to order parents. The UDHR mandates education for all, and so states are bound to mandate education regardless of the parents wishes. The same applies to healthcare, it is the governments responsibility to ensure healthcare for all, regardless of the parents wishes. The government has, according to the UDHR, the explicit responsibility to provide healthcare for children. Note that the article on education includes a note on parents' choice; the healthcare one does not.

Children's rights are further developed in their own convention, the convention on the rights of the child. Now, what does this one state? It states clearly that the government should ensure that children develop healthily. It's not "parents", and it's not "provide". It's the government's responsibility, and they should ensure it. Clarly, if a given vaccine is deemed necessary for the health of a child, it is the governments responsibility to ensure that the child recieves it. Parents have no authority to challenge the human rights of their children.

Feel free to argue for your version of liberty all you want, but refrain from bringing up the UDHR. It does not support your views, and it has an interpretation of liberty which differs from yours. The UN sees national governments, with the UN as arbiter, as the providers of the freedoms listed in the UDHR.

Maybe it is a basic misunderstanding as to what a Right is. Rights are outside government control. It is endowed to you by your basic humanity. Government can not take away or regulate rights. They may only assure that they do not violate them and see that services are available. Therefore a right to health care does not mean the government has a say in what procedures you choose or decline. Just like a right to education does not mean every child must be indoctrinated in a government school to a particular political ideology. Some may choose alternatives.

If the government offers health care and a woman chooses to have an abortion, it is not the same as government forced abortion or sterilization programs. But by your definition those are only extensions of healthcare.

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[HoreTore]

Maybe it is a basic misunderstanding as to what a Right is.

If you intend to use the UDHR to support your position, you must also follow its definition of what a right is. Needless to say, you do not have the same understanding of what a right is.

Therefore, I have asked you not to bring up the UDHR, as it does not support your claims.

[HoreTore]

As to government being able to force you leading to authoritarian regimes...

My own government took away my freedom of movement, my freedom of employment and my freedom of expression for 11 months and 8 days. I had done no wrong, aside from being born in this country. They forced me, under threat of jail, to move from my home and into a six-man room hundreds of miles away. They dictated when I got up in the morning, what clothes I wore, and what type of food I ate. I was given some time of my own, but it was always at the whims of the government; they could take it away as they pleased, without any justification or prior warning. I had to do whatever job the government told me to do, no matter how I felt about it. Work hours ranged from 6 to 24. Refusal meant withdrawal of benefits, fines or ultimately jail. Sometimes, they decided not to give me any food or sleep at all, while working for days on end.


Aside from it all being extremely boring, I can't see that it hurt me much. And Norway still isn't a totalitarian dictatorship....

I don't think we'll become one with mandatory vaccination programs either.