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Thread: Destroying Sap points

  1. #1
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Destroying Sap points

    Does anybody have any tips for destroying sap points other than archers with flaming arrows? That is the only recourse I can think of. I usually try two units, and because they are so widespread (and cheap), I usually end up using Toxotai. That is only about twenty to thirty percent effective. Do better archers fare any better? Sometimes because of the position of the enemy siege towers I can't place my archers to destroy them. Outside of sallying out, which would be suicide for the unit attempting it, is their any other option, or am I stuck? The big problem is now I am fighting Baktria, who grew powerful as I limited the Greeks, and if they send Phalangitai in, I have a horrible time, they don't rout very easily. I am getting out of the range of the Hoplitai, and the Anatolian Hillmen take heavy casualties against phalanx, even if I catch their flank, there will always be some of my guys hit their front, and the Hillmen defense is not that great anyway. If I can't destroy the sap points, any tips for handling the phalanx coming through the breach better, I usually try to flank them as they come in, hitting from either side.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  2. #2

    Default Re: Destroying Sap points

    Do better archers fare any better?
    Yes and yes you're limited to archers.

    But do you sally out?Before the enemy attack(In your turn)?
    When having lot's of archers and high walls you can kill a massive ammount of enemies.
    Which faction are you playing as ?With enough archers you can destroy both the sap points and the towers.

  3. #3
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destroying Sap points

    That's what I thought. I know siege weapons (onagers, ballista) have some effect against siege towers, kind of hard for them to target sap points. I don't like to have too large garrisons for financial reasons (though Toxotai are probably cheap enough not to matter), and I like most of that to be line infantry. I prefer two archers, two skirmishers or two slingers, and at least four line infantry, with one or two of those being heavy infantry, with one or two cavalry units. Hoplitai are great as line infantry because they are a decent substitute for heavy infantry (Hoplitai Epilektoi (I am sure I got that wrong), Thorakitai, and such like), and don't require an high level barracks, and they are cheaper than elite units. The Peltastai do OK as line infantry, and inside my empire, units with about the stats of levy hoplites with one or two extra Peltastai-grade units do fine as garrison. I am Rome right now. I guess an extra unit of archers or two would be nice, though I don't want to destroy all their equipment, I would rather wipe the enemy army out than send them packing. If I am upgrading barracks and have all the line infantry I need, building extra archers would be good, I guess.

    If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan? Jeremiah 12:5 KJV
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 06-30-2014 at 21:55.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  4. #4
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destroying Sap points

    For order purposes, only the number, rather than quality of troops matters in a garrison. My default garrison with Hellenistic factions is usually 2x Hoplitai Haploi, 2x Akontistai and 1x Toxotai. If it's somewhere on the periphery, likely to be attacked, I might add a unit of Hoplitai and a levy phalanx, and perhaps a unit of Hippakontistai. All cheap and pretty capable when led by a General/FM rather than captain.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  5. #5
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destroying Sap points

    I have not yet gotten to levy phalanx units, are they in an advanced barracks?
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

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    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destroying Sap points

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    I have not yet gotten to levy phalanx units, are they in an advanced barracks?
    Ah, I don't think Romans can recruit them. There's always mercenary phalangitai.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  7. #7
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destroying Sap points

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    There's always mercenary phalangitai.
    Who are expensive and cannot be retrained, only combined. Drat. I was hoping I could at least get Native Phalanx. So much easier as a garrison. And Large Stone Walls are the best I can do, right? There are no Epic Stone Walls? I know those could destroy sap points.
    Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah 4:13 KJV
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  8. #8

    Default Re: Destroying Sap points

    It doesn't seem to have been answered previously, but better quality archers are a good idea for cities you expect to be attacked. Better ranges mean more shooting time before those siege towers reach the wall. A cavalry dash can hold up the siege machinery too, which can help buy time for the archers to do their job.

  9. #9
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destroying Sap points

    Quote Originally Posted by Maeran View Post
    It doesn't seem to have been answered previously, but better quality archers are a good idea for cities you expect to be attacked. Better ranges mean more shooting time before those siege towers reach the wall. A cavalry dash can hold up the siege machinery too, which can help buy time for the archers to do their job.
    I prefer to have an army for the region able to come and relieve a siege. Plus it means that you get a proper field battle, rather than yet another tedious siege to play out.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  10. #10
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destroying Sap points

    If I am a phalanx faction, I prefer to fight in town. If I use a manipular formation, I like fighting outside, or setting up my maniples on the town square and letting my towers wear down their units; in a large Roman/Greek city, if they attack from certain sides, they can lose over 50% of their men sometimes, I have seen as high as 80% casualties before they reach me.

    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1 KJV
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  11. #11
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destroying Sap points

    Something I have found out, if there are less than ten men in a unit, they cannot sap. If positioning allows, I use my missile units to wipe out the unit heading to the sap point so that they stop. Two slingers and two archers decimate enemy units when firing from the wall.
    But there was a strong tower within the city, and thither fled all the men and women, and all they of the city, and shut it to them, and gat them up to the top of the tower. And Abimelech came unto the tower, and fought against it, and went hard unto the door of the tower to burn it with fire. And a certain woman cast a piece of a millstone upon Abimelech's head, and all to brake his skull. Then he called hastily unto the young man his armourbearer, and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, that men say not of me, A woman slew him. And his young man thrust him through, and he died. Judges 9:51-54 KJV
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 07-10-2014 at 21:09.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

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