Speaking of Israel...

[Pannonian]

It requires two visionary leaders to be able to pull it off. A proper and equal peace would benefit both Israel and Palestine.

Did you know that Israel imports people from the Philippines to work in their fields, etc, to replace the jobs the Palestinians did? If there was a proper peace, the Palestinians could end up taking that work again and Israel could lift the embargo's, allowing free and prosperous trade to flow into Palestine, which could allow the nation to build itself up and end up forming a mutual partnership of good will.

I would love such a solution to come about, but it feels that sometimes the conflict will only be 'ended' if one side wins, hence my other solution of trying to do the best for the Palestinian people as the 'losers'.

Filipinos don't belong there, and can be legally kicked off as soon as they outlive their usefulness. Palestinians are different, and Israel has obligations whatever status they eventually settle on, whether they're citizens of a Palestinian state, refugees of a Palestinian state, citizens of an Israeli state, guests of an Israeli state, or whatever. Hence you get attempts of people like Frag to deny them any kind of status, relieving Israel of all responsibility and making them a legal anomaly simply for being. According to those arguments, Palestinians have no legal right to exist.

[Fragony]

Filipinos don't belong there, and can be legally kicked off as soon as they outlive their usefulness. Palestinians are different, and Israel has obligations whatever status they eventually settle on, whether they're citizens of a Palestinian state, refugees of a Palestinian state, citizens of an Israeli state, guests of an Israeli state, or whatever. Hence you get attempts of people like Frag to deny them any kind of status, relieving Israel of all responsibility and making them a legal anomaly simply for being. According to those arguments, Palestinians have no legal right to exist.

Don't put words in my my mouth, I am ok with a state for them, so is Israel. You should have a chat with so e friends who are from there, they can explain very well what Hamas really is and how their life is under their rule. I condemn a vicious regime, nothing else.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Some rough figures:

Israel's total population is 8.1 million, with 6.1 million Jews and 2.0 million Arabs.
The West Bank's population is 2.6 million, with 2.3 million Arabs and 0.3 million Jews.
Gaza's population is 1.7 million of entirely Arabs.

Now, if we consider what would happen if Israel were to integrate either or both the Palestinian territories, giving full rights as Israeli citizens to their inhabitants (probably the only viable/palatable situation should integration be agreed upon), we would get the following figures:

Option 1. Annexation of both Palestinian territories - the Israeli state would have a population of 12.4 million, of which 6.4 million would be Jews and 6.0 million would be Arabs. Such a precarious Jewish minority would never work and would be seen as a threat to the nature of Israel as a Jewish homeland. I can not see this working in anywhere near the foreseeable future.

Option 2. Annexation of the West Bank only - the Israeli state would have a population of 10.7 million, of which 6.4 million would be Jews and 4.3 million would be Arabs. I think this solution poses the same problem as above, as although the Jewish majority would be somewhat less fragile, alarm bells would be ringing given the population explosion see in the Arab population. This would make the Jewish population too nervy. Plus, Gaza would never, IMO, survive as an independent state. The only path it could take would be annexation by Egypt, and given the relationship between Hamas and Egypt's current rulership, I don't think that would create a healthier situation than the present. Annexation of just the West Bank seems the worst of all option, IMO.

Option 3. Annexation of Gaza only - the Israeli state would have a population of 9.8 million, of which 6.1 million would be Jews and 3.7 million would be Arabs. I can just about (barely) see this allowing for Israel to exist as a Jewish state with a Jewish majority that will appease its Jewish population. A further option would be to negotiate the removal of Israeli settlements in the West Bank in return for East Jerusalem being annexed along with Gaza, with a population transfer between West Bank settlers and the Arabs of East Jerusalem. This would bring 0.3 million Jews back to Israel, and transfer the 0.25 million Arabs of East Jerusalem to the autonomous West Bank area. This would give Israel a secure capital city, and rounding up, the Israeli state would have a population of 9.9 million, of which 6.4 million would be Jews, and 3.5 million would be Arabs. As well as securing a more acceptable (or rather, for us, workable) Jewish majority than with Option 2, this leaves a more viable state than Gaza, in the form of the West Bank. The West Bank could stand far better on its own that Gaza, but if it was to be integrated into a neighbouring country, it also has better option. Unlike Egypt, Jordan is essentially a Palestinian state, and many Jordanians are very sympathetic to Fatah.

Some things to mull over there. And I'm not double-checking those figures, btw!.

[Fragony]

Keep it as it is, shoot back if shoot upon, otherwise let leave the palies be. No more settlement though. Learn how to build appartment buildings if it get too crowdy, and point a finger at hardcore jews and laugh at them really hard before ignoring them.

Alas, problem solved

[Kralizec]

Keep it as it is, shoot back if shoot upon, otherwise let leave the palies be. No more settlement though. Learn how to build appartment buildings if it get too crowdy, and point a finger at hardcore jews and laugh at them really hard before ignoring them.

Alas, problem solved

That's basicly the entire plan of the Likud party. Actually, only the "keep it as it is, shoot back" part. And sadly, it looks like they'll be in power for quite a while.

The great paradox is that the majority of Israelites have an unfavourable opinion of settlers and support, in theory, and independent Palestinian state. But the settlers are such a powerful minority in Israel that mainstream politicians don't dare to cross them. I refuse to buy products made by Israeli settlements on the west bank, and I encourage others to do the same. In other words, I boycott them. If I had said that in Israel, I would be prosecuted.

The Lidud party's charter explicitly rules out the possiblity of an independent Palestinian state. They act as if they're open to the possibility nowadays, but in fact Netanyahu hasn't made the slightest effort to make that happen. Construction of new settlements happens almost without interruption. If the Palestinians do something remotely annoying (like getting member status in the UN assembly - something that logically comes with self determination) settlements are errected at an increased rate. Knowing full well that in Israel, there will never be enough political will to dismantle them all.

[Ironside]

That's basicly the entire plan of the Likud party. Actually, only the "keep it as it is, shoot back" part. And sadly, it looks like they'll be in power for quite a while.

Add, "find an excuse to provoke enough to start the shooting."

Netanyahu's "Hamas totally did it, even if all signs points otherwise, but won't be public until they leak" is sort of hard to explain otherwise.

[Fragony]

Add, "find an excuse to provoke enough to start the shooting."

Netanyahu's "Hamas totally did it, even if all signs points otherwise, but won't be public until they leak" is sort of hard to explain otherwise.

That is nonsense imho, Hamas is like the annoying schoolkid that keeps pinching you in the arm untill you hit him, than he runs of crying and hides under the teachers skirt. Israel should hit back much harder when endlessly being attacked. Just because they have the better weapons doesn't mean it isn't justified. As we say here, if you burn your ass you will just have to sit on the blisters.

[Beskar]

Some things to mull over there. And I'm not double-checking those figures, btw!.

You didn't include the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. It is one of those 'hot points' as part of the Palestinian demands is to allow them all to return. These are also mistreated in their respective countries as well and denied citizenship.

[lars573]

You didn't include the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. It is one of those 'hot points' as part of the Palestinian demands is to allow them all to return. These are also mistreated in their respective countries as well and denied citizenship.

Consider this though. For every Palestinian that ran to those Arab states in 1948 there was a Jew who left those same Arab states and came to Israel. As far as Israel is concerned a population exchange happened.