Speaking of Israel...

[Kadagar_AV]

Ex-Israeli soldiers speaks out

Effin horrible nation, imho.

[Pannonian]

1. There is a heavy indoctrination in Israel, from an early age in schools, which uses the holocaust to create paranoia and fear against ‘the enemy’

2. Israeli soldiers are trained intensively for a war, whilst their actual military duties are to subdue and control Palestinians

I don't know about the rest of it, but from what I can see, Israelis and Palestinians do seem rather similar to Spartans and Messenians. A lot of fuss about militarising a whole society for war readiness, but all of it is spent keeping down an underclass at home. Does Israel send any peacekeeping forces abroad?

[Fragony]

Dispicable things certainly happen, won't argue with that. But if you put everything on a more bigger scale, considering everything that happened since it became an independ state. We all know what happened. The whole Arab world turned on the. They did it again in 1968(?) and they get attacked on daily bases even in peace time. Hamas fires rockets to diberatily kill civilians, they may suck at it but they try. Not that Israel is a saint, no denying that they deeply wrong the Palestinians when it comes to certain thing. But my moral principle remains, one side wants the other dead. How do you treat someone who really wants you dead?

[Kadagar_AV]

Dispicable things certainly happen, won't argue with that. But if you put everything on a more bigger scale, considering everything that happened since it became an independ state. We all know what happened. The whole Arab world turned on the. They did it again in 1968(?) and they get attacked on daily bases even in peace time. Hamas fires rockets to diberatily kill civilians, they may suck at it but they try. Not that Israel is a saint, no denying that they deeply wrong the Palestinians when it comes to certain thing. But my moral principle remains, one side wants the other dead. How do you treat someone who really wants you dead?

Both sides wants the other gone, Arabs are just less tech and have shorter time spans on their plans.

[Fragony]

Both sides wants the other gone, Arabs are just less tech and have shorter time spans on their plans.

Plenty of Arabs live in Israel, whole neighbourhoods in Tev Aviv. Without denying that Israel is perhaps a tad too brutal I don't see them as the agressor. Let's put it this way, if the Israeli wanted the Arabs dead, they would be by now. If the military balance would have been different, Hamas having a great advantage, how much of the same courtisy would you expect Israeli's get. Their (hamas) charters are pretty clear on what they want. They are also a terror for their own people, apolitical palestinians are terrified of them.

Edit, just for musings sake, who are to judge them for holding on on some territories, they gave back a lot, AFTER being attacked by just about everyone in the region. It doesn't excuse the settlement policies but they earned that land imho.

Look at us Europeans https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WFYKrNptzXw

A lot of critisism is just unfair and hypocrite.

[Idaho]

What about this?

You'll want the Israeli hand to be 4 times the size, and covered in armour.

[Fragony]

Pfffft Israel warns the Pallies if an attack is comming, Hamas makes sure that everybody stays at home so as many civilians as possible get killed. Goes like this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C2vMAF9Kt18

The younger the better.

That is what it looks like. The second a call is made, flyers are dropped, or a tud lands, your neighbourhood is surrounded and people aren't allowed to leave by Hamas order troops. Hamas needs dead civilians. Israel may have a bigger army but they don't have the almost undying support of western media.

You don't have to take my word for that.

[Ironside]

That is nonsense imho, Hamas is like the annoying schoolkid that keeps pinching you in the arm untill you hit him, than he runs of crying and hides under the teachers skirt. Israel should hit back much harder when endlessly being attacked. Just because they have the better weapons doesn't mean it isn't justified. As we say here, if you burn your ass you will just have to sit on the blisters.

That "nonsense" got more or less confirmed by the Israelis. The prime suspects are a bunch of hardcore militant terrorist fanatics that's a huge pain in the ass for Hamas, but powerful enough to not get denounced. They're also based in Hebron on the West bank, not Gaza.

In other news, if the radicalisation of Israel continues, this guy will be the next prime minister from Likud and he is currently the deputy speaker of Knesset.

He wrote his solution to the current situation.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ultimatum – One warning from the Prime Minister of Israel to the enemy population, in which he announces that Israel is about to attack military targets in their area and urges those who are not involved and do not wish to be harmed to leave immediately. Sinai is not far from Gaza and they can leave. This will be the limit of Israel’s humanitarian efforts. Hamas may unconditionally surrender and prevent the attack.

Attack – Attack the entire ‘target bank’ throughout Gaza with the IDF’s maximum force (and not a tiny fraction of it) with all the conventional means at its disposal. All the military and infrastructural targets will be attacked with no consideration for ‘human shields’ or ‘environmental damage’. It is enough that we are hitting exact targets and that we gave them advance warning.

Siege – Parallel to the above, a total siege on Gaza. Nothing will enter the area. Israel, however, will allow exit from Gaza. (Civilians may go to Sinai, fighters may surrender to IDF forces).

Defense – Any place from which Israel or Israel’s forces were attacked will be immediately attacked with full force and no consideration for ‘human shields’ or ‘environmental damage’.

Conquer – After the IDF completes the "softening" of the targets with its fire-power, the IDF will conquer the entire Gaza, using all the means necessary to minimize any harm to our soldiers, with no other considerations.

Elimination- The GSS and IDF will thoroughly eliminate all armed enemies from Gaza. The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave.

Sovereignty – Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever. Liberation of parts of our land forever is the only thing that justifies endangering our soldiers in battle to capture land. Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel. The coastal train line will be extended, as soon as possible, to reach the entire length of Gaza.

According to polls, most of the Arabs in Gaza wish to leave. Those who were not involved in anti-Israel activity will be offered a generous international emigration package. Those who choose to remain will receive permanent resident status. After a number of years of living in Israel and becoming accustomed to it, contingent on appropriate legislation in the Knesset and the authorization of the Minister of Interior, those who personally accept upon themselves Israel’s rule, substance and way of life of the Jewish State in its Land, will be offered Israeli citizenship.

Care to guess where any strategical errors will show up in his planning if implemeted? Not counting that it is ethnic cleansing already.

[Fragony]

West-Bank is PLO territory, not Hamas. I would love to see a lot of you explain your views to my mate Mo, I think he's going to get a bit angry at you if you effortlessly can recite just about everything flying around about hamas-controlled territory. He's big.

Hamas is horrible, they terrorise everybody, not just the Israeli's. People are absolutily terrified of them. He hates the Israeli's as well mind you. Can hardly blame him for that. But he is absolutily more scared of Hamas.

You probably mean Islamic Jihad, more radical than Hamas, will crash your wedding if you play music. Don't know anything about them. Except that Hamas is scared of them as well.

[Husar]

Pfffft Israel warns the Pallies if an attack is comming, Hamas makes sure that everybody stays at home so as many civilians as possible get killed. Goes like this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C2vMAF9Kt18

The younger the better.

That is what it looks like. The second a call is made, flyers are dropped, or a tud lands, your neighbourhood is surrounded and people aren't allowed to leave by Hamas order troops. Hamas needs dead civilians. Israel may have a bigger army but they don't have the almost undying support of western media.

You don't have to take my word for that.

Well, I don't think Hamas has a lot of friends here anyway.
As for the warnings, isn't it kind of logical that Hamas are warned as well and can get out of the area?
Why do they warn people and then bomb the area anyway? Are they aiming for ammunition depots or just randomly destroying peoples' houses?

[Fragony]

Well, I don't think Hamas has a lot of friends here anyway.
As for the warnings, isn't it kind of logical that Hamas are warned as well and can get out of the area?
Why do they warn people and then bomb the area anyway? Are they aiming for ammunition depots or just randomly destroying peoples' houses?

How could I know, never been there myself, can only say what I heard. But people are warned before an attack, they get an empty shell or flyers or a call, which means get the hell out of here. By the time they have gotten te hell out they are not allowed to leave the territory, and not because of Israel.

Disclaimer, I got this from people I know that are from there. A phonecall is always scary because you know that you may have the need to flee and fast.

Little sour addition, did the Dutch get the same courtisy when Rotterdam was absolutily destroyed? Other times I know, but still a complete city destroyed without any warning.it took Germany half an hour to kill 30.000 Dutchies probably, and a million starved later, not that it matters anymore but I like perspective in my morality and it'sa bit lost by people who critisize Israel. It's just not fair.

Food for thought, the UN condemned an attack on a school that was completily destroyed, there were 3000 hiding there, 10 casualties total. How would you you suggest you can organise that?

[Husar]

Yes, they only kill the weak, old people and people who can't run away fast enough. That is really heartwarming.
But if they target only military installations, why do they warn people? Doesn't that mean they warn the militants occupying the military installation? If they warn civilians in a civilian house, why are they bombing a civilian house again?

[Fragony]

Yes, they only kill the weak, old people and people who can't run away fast enough. That is really heartwarming.
But if they target only military installations, why do they warn people? Doesn't that mean they warn the militants occupying the military installation? If they warn civilians in a civilian house, why are they bombing a civilian house again?

Because rockets are purposily shot from high density or schools,hosptals etc. Camera's love it.

[Husar]

Because rockets are purposily shot from high density or schools,hosptals etc. Camera's love it.

So they warn the people firing the rockets so that they can escape in time?

[Kralizec]

West-Bank is PLO territory, not Hamas.

That was the point. This military operation started on the premise that Hamas was responsible for the abduction of three Israelis on the west bank. It now looks like Hamas had very little, or nothing, to do with it.

[Fragony]

So they warn the people firing the rockets so that they can escape in time?

Basicly yes

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That was the point. This military operation started on the premise that Hamas was responsible for the abduction of three Israelis on the west bank. It now looks like Hamas had very little, or nothing, to do with it.

I've been watching a lot of re-broadcast episodes of "criminal minds" -- a fictionalized version of our FBI serial killer hunter teams.

It struck me that a serial killer could have a grand old time in that region of the world -- hunting humans without ever worrying about getting caught since it could always be made to look like one splinter group or another did the killings. Then you get to watch a show after you've done your own killing.

How much violent crime over there is solved and how much is labeled "terrorism" and used as an excuse....even when it was just simple crime?

[Beskar]

*Those who were not involved in anti-Israel activity will be offered a generous international emigration package. Those who choose to remain will receive permanent resident status. After a number of years of living in Israel and becoming accustomed to it, contingent on appropriate legislation in the Knesset and the authorization of the Minister of Interior, those who personally accept upon themselves Israel’s rule, substance and way of life of the Jewish State in its Land, will be offered Israeli citizenship..

That point is close to what I suggested but I feel their version of 'generous' and my version of 'generous' are radically different. Plus my humanitarian efforts go far beyond simple packages too.

[Fragony]

Well that was fast, they actually managed to not shoot rockets for 24 hours. But sudden jihad syndrome is just too strong again, they couldn't control it once again. The need to kill them wherever they find them is too strong for people of the religion of peace.

Alahu Akhbar

[HoreTore]

I've been watching a lot of re-broadcast episodes of "criminal minds" -- a fictionalized version of our FBI serial killer hunter teams.

It struck me that a serial killer could have a grand old time in that region of the world -- hunting humans without ever worrying about getting caught since it could always be made to look like one splinter group or another did the killings. Then you get to watch a show after you've done your own killing.

How much violent crime over there is solved and how much is labeled "terrorism" and used as an excuse....even when it was just simple crime?

This is a common theme in any warzone.

On the flipside, in the event that you do get caught, you will probably be shot immediately as an enemy combatant.

Also, criminal minds is a god-awful show. Stop watching it.

[HoreTore]

Well that was fast, they actually managed to not shoot rockets for 24 hours. But sudden jihad syndrome is just too strong again, they couldn't control it once again. The need to kill them wherever they find them is too strong for people of the religion of peace.

Alahu Akhbar

Kill? How many have they killed, exactly?

[Fragony]

Kill? How many have they killed, exactly?

For a lack of trying or for not being very good at it? Doesn't change the simple fact that one side wants the other dead, and that they will never stop trying. It's in their charters and their holy book. They must kill them wherever they find them. There isn't anything Arabs are good at so they are also bad at killing

Rough estimation that was made, without the dome 30.000 Israeli casualties. I wonder what would be on the counter if it wasn't for the wall and checkpoints.

[HoreTore]

For a lack of trying or for not being very good at it? Doesn't change the simple fact that one side wants the other dead, and that they will never stop trying. It's in their charters and their holy book. They must kill them wherever they find them. There isn't anything Arabs are good at so they are also bad at killing

Rough estimation that was made, without the dome 30.000 Israeli casualties. I wonder what would be on the counter if it wasn't for the wall and checkpoints.

Doesn't change the fact that they do not kill very much.

Also, that "estimation" is retarded; rockets flew into Israel long before they created the dome(it was a reaction), and it was nowhere near 30.000. Try 30. To back up how retarded your claimed estimation is, have a look at the stats for the Iron Dome. Around a third of the missiles get intercepted. So, they kill 3 people with 1000 rockets, and somehow they will manage to kill 29.997 with another 500 missiles?

Lrn2math.

EDIT: And if you want examples of a holy book telling people to kill them all, have a look at the Israeli religious right.

[Fragony]

I didn't make the estimation, just post that was made. But there is an absolute certainty of the amount of jewish Israeli's that would get killed if Hamas got their way, all.

[HoreTore]

I didn't make the estimation, just post that was made.

...And you repeated it without thinking it through and noticing how utterly retarded that estimation is.

If we take the current death toll and estimate that the missiles intercepted by the Iron Dome will kill 10 times more than the ones who get through, we end up at roughly 3 million rockets required to kill those 30.000 Israelis. Have fun.

But there is an absolute certainty of the amount of jewish Israeli's that would get killed if Hamas got their way, all.

Ditto for the Israeli religious right.

[Husar]

Ditto for the Israeli religious right.

I suppose he also appreciates the way "we" cleaned the Warsaw ghetto, effective and goal-driven, just how he likes it.

[Fragony]

I suppose he also appreciates the way "we" cleaned the Warsaw ghetto, effective and goal-driven, just how he likes it.

Did I squeeze the allready painfull ball, sorry I would have gone for the other one if I knew, that stuff hurts.

Israel wants peace, Hamas wants war. Doesn't get any simpler. Must kinda hurt if your superior religion fails again again and again, even if 5 countries attack at once. Arabs and pride you see, bit humiliating to be beaten over and over again by 'apes and pigs'.

Allahuh not by far

What you describe is more the ISIS way, you know arab spring and all that, that stuff gutmensch doesn't want to be bothered anymore because they lost interest after being proved wrong as usual.

[Pannonian]

I suppose he also appreciates the way "we" cleaned the Warsaw ghetto, effective and goal-driven, just how he likes it.

His strategy for Gaza is a mixture of our Boer concentration strategy and your Madagascar strategy. Concentrate the civilians in a defined area so everyone outside that area can be assumed to be a combatant, then deport them to somewhere else.

Looking at his wiki entry, I see this gem of a quote: "(Jonathan) Pollard is a Jew who saved the Israelis from American treachery."

I'm also happy to see that this gentleman is banned from entering the UK.

[Pannonian]

Did I squeeze the allready painfull ball, sorry I would have gone for the other one if I knew, that stuff hurts.

Israel wants peace, Hamas wants war. Doesn't get any simpler. Must kinda hurt if your superior religion fails again again and again, even if 5 countries attack at once. Arabs and pride you see, bit humiliating to be beaten over and over again by 'apes and pigs'.

Allahuh not by far

What you describe is more the ISIS way, you know arab spring and all that, that stuff gutmensch doesn't want to be bothered anymore because they lost interest after being proved wrong as usual.

Do you know anything about this guy Feiglin that they're talking about? Do you know that his definition of peace is the conquest of Gaza and deportation of its current inhabitants so they can be replaced by Israelis?

[Husar]

Did I squeeze the allready painfull ball, sorry I would have gone for the other one if I knew, that stuff hurts.

Israel wants peace, Hamas wants war. Doesn't get any simpler. Must kinda hurt if your superior religion fails again again and again, even if 5 countries attack at once. Arabs and pride you see, bit humiliating to be beaten over and over again by 'apes and pigs'.

Allahuh not by far

What you describe is more the ISIS way, you know arab spring and all that, that stuff gutmensch doesn't want to be bothered anymore because they lost interest after being proved wrong as usual.

It would help if you actually read what you comment on.

And I'm aware that my comparison is not even an 80% fit, doesn't change the fact that proposing to just shoot the human shields is not nice and comes rather close.

I have no idea what you mean with the ISIS comparison, where was Gutmensch proven wrong when he said the American invasion would fail?