Speaking of Israel...

[Papewaio]

I could say literally anything and you'd find a way to make it political. Whatever.

Well stop making political rhetoric :p

Surely the Palestinians if they are a state can evict invaders too?

[Montmorency]

It's astounding that you would claim there is nothing political to the international adjudication of military laws, and that it is purely a military matter. Of course such disingenuous compartmentalization of literally the most political aspect of a military's existence makes our statements unacceptable to each other.

But you know, as they say, the truth of the crime lies not with the victim but with the witness...

[Montmorency]

I'm making the least controversial claims in this entire thread

Empirically the opposite.

and I have no idea what you're going on about.

I gathered.

[Montmorency]

The US State Department basically takes the exact same line I've been pushing for the last few pages.

Kim Jong Un could claim that his people are well-fed and happy. So? Perhaps might makes right, but does incest make right?

Israel has a right to defend itself. What part of that are you arguing with, and why?

As laid down by international bodies, the manner in which Israel is defending itself is criminal. Very simple.

Think of Martin and Zimmerman: let's say Martin sought Zimmerman out (even as Zimmerman was doing the same) and threw a punch. Florida law being much less "merciful" than international law tends to be, Martin's subsequent shooting death would be considered lawful. But if Martin had run off to his own house to throw rocks at Zimmerman from the windows, and Zimmerman had responded by setting Martin's house on fire, he would rightfully face a very long prison sentence, even in Florida.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The US State Department basically takes the exact same line I've been pushing for the last few pages. Its a humanitarian shame, but Israel has a right to defend itself. What part of that are you arguing with, and why?

Nobody believes they're just targeting missile sites.

The extent of the ground bombardment - against an enemy lacking serious AA capability - and the number of Palestinian dead make it look like a punitive campaign.

Aside from that - Hamas is part of the Palestinian Government, if Israel is going to invade it should have formally declared war - attacking another state without a formal declaration of war is a war crime.

Having said that, the US conducts illegal operations in Pakistan, so Israel's key ally has set the bar very low.

[Montmorency]

Can you give an example? Preferably one that doesn't just mention that the Israelis are indeed conducting military operations in Gaza?

Eyewitness reporting from the scene, or a source with a source in the IDF or Knesset?

Again, does incest make right?

[Montmorency]

You just did what I asked you not to do.

'They say they're trying to limit collateral damage'

'Civilian casualties are inevitable'

'Tunnels pose a threat'

Did you honestly think this added anything to the discussion?

[Montmorency]

The fact that you still have no idea what I'm even talking about makes me sad.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So, the problem is that people believe rumors instead of what's reported by reliable sources? Like I said, I'm not speculating. I'm giving a simple analysis of what's been reported by reliable news sources so far, which is actually quite a lot. For example, the tunnels are apparently more extensive than previously thought, and much of the fighting is taking place in densely populated urban areas that house these tunnels, used by Hamas (allegedly). If true, that's legit for the IDF to attack, and you can expect a lot more civilian casualties, sadly. Hopefully 'ol Kerry can get them to agree to a humanitarian cease-fire or something.

The death toll of Civilians has passed 500 in a few days - that looks punitive against the number of Israeli dead - compare to the (relatively) low civilian casualties in Ukraine and the much higher casualties among the Ukrainian army.

Lets just reflect on how sad it is for a moment that we have those two to compare.

Now, even assuming that the fact the tunnels are in Urban areas is the reason for higher casualties it still begs the question of why this is so. Given the low Israeli casualties we know they aren't fighting in them, which suggests they might (for example) be using Ground Penetrating RADAR to map the tunnels and then using bombs to flatten them.

That's not OK, nor is any variation of that strategy.

If this was genuinely a Police Action targeting Hamas then the IDF would sweep through the area, stopping up tunnel entrances as they go and hope to flush the Hamas fighters out, then pour concrete into all the tunnels.

I realise America uses it's fire-power to suppress local resistance in a big way but in Europe and the West that's not usually considered a legitimate use of resources. One of the biggest criticisms of British Forces in Iraq was that they had started adopting these "American tactics" due to a lack of manpower.

[Hooahguy]

Where are you getting the 600 civilian deaths number from?