Speaking of Israel...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So what, is it Israel's fault that they drop one every 9 months, they breed like rabbits over there. Get less kids, less get killed by being used as human shields.

Where to begin with this one....hmmmm.....nope, not worth it.

[Fragony]

Where to begin with this one....hmmmm.....nope, not worth it.

Oh noes disaproval is mine. If it wouldn't be for the billions of aid they would starve to death instead of being collateral damage. They are the victims of the war Hamas wages on Israel, not the victims of Israel's retaliations. At least it's quiker. Hamas needs dead kids more than a junkie needs crack and they make damn sure that as many as possible get killed.

Pallywood.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Its one thing to say that Christian theory detests violence, but then you look at the Spanish Inquisition, the thousands of religious pogroms incited by how the Jews killed Jesus and other things like that, and finally the Holocaust where most Christian leaders stayed silent as millions were murdered, and you wonder why Jews as a people tend not to trust other people who arent within the fold?

OK - I'll get right to it.

The Inquisition was a phenomenon of the Renaissance - aimed at building a new Spanish nations it targeted all non-Catholics. This obviously fell heavily upon the Jewish populations, but it also fell heavily upon the Muslim population, which was probably larger, and targeted even those suspected of deviancy - i.e. not being Roman Catholic. Not to belittle the fact that the Jews were expelled, but it was not a movement targeting Jews specifically.

Thousands of religious Pogroms? Unlikely, dozens yes, hundreds possibly, but not thousands. That is a gross exaggeration. Looking through Wikipedia, there are perhaps 100 pages on instances of anti-Jewish pogroms, and some of those (like the 1907 Romanian Peasants' Revolt) were not about Jews, but they were targeted as part of the wealthy merchant class. As far as I know, the only pogroms that targeted Jews specifically as "Christ Killers" were the ones associated with the Crusades - carried out by people that everybody considered unhinged fanatics, including the Church, the Emperor and most normal people.

And then we come to the Holocaust, which targeted Jews first, and then anyone else who the Nazi's considered a threat - and which the Roman Catholic Church (largest denomination in the area affected) vocally opposed while it was possible and continued to actively frustrate throughout the 1940's, leading to the death of some of its clergy.

Undoubtedly Christian-Jewish relations have improved over the past 70 years but the distrust will always be there. Is that a fault in the way that the Jewish community thinks? Absolutely. But is that kind of distrust expected? Absolutely.

To listen to you, I'd say they haven't improved at all. If Jews are constalty expecting another Pogrom, which is what this comes down to, and they don't trust the people they live next door to then the situation is exactly the same as for the last 1,000 years.

Contrast with Western discourse that talks about "Judeo-Christian" rather than "Abrahamic" religion.

And I think you overestimate the way that other people in the West thinks when it comes to vengeance. Just look at post 9/11, everyone was clamoring for vengeance and Im sure there are examples of that in Europe as well.

Clamouring for just retribution, which is practically the same but psychologically different. Sure people demand "justice" and they mean vengeance, but you'll rarely hear them say "we want revenge for those killings."

The problem is that the way Israel is reacting is how Europe would react to things like this before the whole human rights idea took hold. Judaism as a culture is very big on memory, and has many prayers and songs how through the generations "they" tried to kill the Jews but we survived. So its a very "survivor" mentality which feeds into this idea that now that Jews finally have a state to call their own, they will fight tooth and nail to keep it safe from all threats, and right now the biggest threat are the Palestinians. So what do they do? They take the lessons that were learned from centuries of persecution and apply it to that threat.

so Jews don't believe in Human Rights?

Can we try that again, please?

From my understanding its from the thought that if all Jews go back to Israel it will trigger the messiah coming or something along those lines.

Basically - it's the most toxic of alliances.

[Hooahguy]

OK - I'll get right to it.

The Inquisition was a phenomenon of the Renaissance - aimed at building a new Spanish nations it targeted all non-Catholics. This obviously fell heavily upon the Jewish populations, but it also fell heavily upon the Muslim population, which was probably larger, and targeted even those suspected of deviancy - i.e. not being Roman Catholic. Not to belittle the fact that the Jews were expelled, but it was not a movement targeting Jews specifically.

Thousands of religious Pogroms? Unlikely, dozens yes, hundreds possibly, but not thousands. That is a gross exaggeration. Looking through Wikipedia, there are perhaps 100 pages on instances of anti-Jewish pogroms, and some of those (like the 1907 Romanian Peasants' Revolt) were not about Jews, but they were targeted as part of the wealthy merchant class. As far as I know, the only pogroms that targeted Jews specifically as "Christ Killers" were the ones associated with the Crusades - carried out by people that everybody considered unhinged fanatics, including the Church, the Emperor and most normal people.

And then we come to the Holocaust, which targeted Jews first, and then anyone else who the Nazi's considered a threat - and which the Roman Catholic Church (largest denomination in the area affected) vocally opposed while it was possible and continued to actively frustrate throughout the 1940's, leading to the death of some of its clergy.

Fair enough. Admittedly Im kind of shaky on my medieval history but regardless of the facts this is how its perceived in the most of Jewish community.

To listen to you, I'd say they haven't improved at all. If Jews are constalty expecting another Pogrom, which is what this comes down to, and they don't trust the people they live next door to then the situation is exactly the same as for the last 1,000 years.

Contrast with Western discourse that talks about "Judeo-Christian" rather than "Abrahamic" religion.

Improved in the sense that it went from pogroms being an eventuality to a "maybe in the far off future" but even then its not really mainstream thinking. Its really only the radicals who think that a single brick thrown through a Jewish storefront window is the next Kristallnacht.

Clamouring for just retribution, which is practically the same but psychologically different. Sure people demand "justice" and they mean vengeance, but you'll rarely hear them say "we want revenge for those killings."

Maybe we were hearing different things then.

so Jews don't believe in Human Rights?

Can we try that again, please?

In the sense that perceived threats do not deserve human rights like the rest of us? I think its a worrying trend in how some people think.

[Hooahguy]

Israeli Official To Obama: ‘Leave Us Alone’

Ok that's cool, we will just take back our $3 billion a year in military aid. Have fun with paying for that Iron Dome (which we helped develop/fund) without that money!

[Pannonian]

Israeli Official To Obama: ‘Leave Us Alone’

Ok that's cool, we will just take back our $3 billion a year in military aid. Have fun with paying for that Iron Dome (which we helped develop/fund) without that money!

Can't they build it themselves from the schematics that they've stolen from you?

[Hooahguy]

I thought China stole the schematics from Israel?

[Sarmatian]

Israeli Official To Obama: ‘Leave Us Alone’

That doesn't mean leave us alone leave us alone. There is leave is alone plain and simple, and leave us alone after the money.

It's all in the nuances.

[rvg]

That doesn't mean leave us alone leave us alone. There is leave is alone plain and simple, and leave us alone after the money.

It's all in the nuances.

It's not the money really. Our financial and military assistance to Israel, that's merely the icing on the cake. Israel's greatest benefit from this relationship is total immunity from UN resolutions. We veto anything and everything even remotely threatening, allowing Israel to wipe its ass with world's opinion.
Now the real question is what we are getting in return for being saddled with such a hefty political liability. That's what Israel is to us: a political liability.

Anyway, as for the crisis at hand, the simplest way to solve it would be to allow Egypt to take over Gaza. Have their tanks roll in and establish a pre-1967 situation. If they don't wanna do it, pay them to do it. Bam: problem solved.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Oh noes disaproval is mine. If it wouldn't be for the billions of aid they would starve to death instead of being collateral damage. They are the victims of the war Hamas wages on Israel, not the victims of Israel's retaliations. At least it's quiker. Hamas needs dead kids more than a junkie needs crack and they make damn sure that as many as possible get killed.

Pallywood.

This post, though many will still disagree disagree with your point, at least makes a more understandable assertion of Hamas' responsibility in these non-combatant deaths; nor are you the first to suggest that their leadership is benefiting from these deaths and is encouraging their occurrence to continue to garner sympathy.

The post I derided had none of this content, but was the usual "those dirty X, all they do is fornicate and make more of themselves" racist claptrap.

[Beskar]

I have been told about this, but I haven't been able to find anything conclusive through google searching, but in short:

Apparently, Hamas were planning a massive assault on Israel, by dressing up as IDF forces and springing out the ground like hobbits to carry out assaults and raids.
These offensive tunnels were built during the 'diplomatic' period of Hamas and the formation of the unity government.
These tunnels cost half-million each (21 in number). The amount of tunnels altogether are in their hundreds, with many built under schools, hospitals, refugee camps, to hide rockets and other military equipment.

Sources:
Al-monitor and Haartz.
The Guardian and NYtimes mention the tunnels but not any plans.


The amount of corruption and the amount of aid-money being ill-spent is terrible. Imagine if all this money was invested in Welfare of the population and diplomatic solutions with israel, instead of being used to buy bombs and rockets.

[Fragony]

The post I derided had none of this content, but was the usual "those dirty X, all they do is fornicate and make more of themselves" racist claptrap.

I bring it upon myself by wording things undimomaticaly.